Legal stance on Sound Choice and Stellar Records

[tymzend]

Anyone else get an e-mail from karaokestar.com regarding a stepped up effort from Sound Choice and Stellar Records about cracking down people who are using burned discs, hard drives, etc.? Stellar Records also specifically lists Hoster in their statement.

I know the stance by MTU up to this point regarding fair use and such, but is there anything we need to be truly concerned with right now? I own all of my CDG's, of course. But statements like the ones I read sure do sound threatening.

http://www.karaokestar.com/lapharkarsys.html


-------------------------------------------------------------

ADMIN: FACTORY NEWS FLASH... MTU continues to evolve PC Karaoke with digitally stored hard drive files.

Our newest Microstudio 3.004 release has the cleanest import error correction available. Try the demo if you don't believe it.

ADMIN: I've combined 3 separate Threads about what Sound Choice and Stellar Records are doing to INTIMIDATE your venue owners into not hiring you.

After our campaign years ago against KAPA, Sound Choice shut it down and stopped trying to intimidate you Hosts/KJs. Now, they think they have a new "mark" to intimidate.

Isn't it INTERESTING that their press releases have surfaced ONLY at two retail dealers... both of whom were still not selling hard disc software or systems.

Every so often, some one just has to start this rumor mill up again. No laws have changed. MTU paid for LEGAL RESEARCH on the rights of the BUYERS. The MANUFACTURERS will ALWAYS tell you what they "want you to believe", which has never been proven by law.

Read this extensive thread on the legalities discussion.

[lmcmains]

Check this page that MTU has: http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm.

[George]

MTU addressed this problem a while back and posted their findings.


http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm

[tymzend]

Thank George.

I was aware of their statement, but Sound Choice and Stellar Records obviously still feel differently, and are going to start making more of an effort to give people a hassle, I guess.

Looks like we just have to keep on truckin', and hope that if we do get harassed about this, our argument holds up in court.

[gduns - with the Lord]

Strange...... I was just over on the soundchoice website, and reading a thread over there, they are going to be coming up with a computerized player themselves, by their own admission.

I think this is a retailer trying to bull..t people into buying their stuff.

[bobcox- with the Lord]

they didnt date the statements could be old ones.
and they said it is illegal to make illegal copys. or use them illegaly from a hard drive. but they danced around just what is or is not legal.
I think that karaoke star is just blowing off hot air.Bob

[tymzend]

Statements are dated December 06

I just want to be legal, that's all. And I surely don't want the establishment that we work in to get into any trouble over anything.

I'd hate to have this "he said - she said" crap turn into fine of some sort, for anyone.

[mindonstrike]

It's interesting that the impetus of their attack is for trademark infringement rather than piracy (although that certainly was not ignored)

About a year ago the owner of Stellar commented on JOLT that (paraphrased)he felt that computerized karaoke was technicaly illegal but as long as you had a 1:1 ratio they (Stellar) had no problem looking the other way. That they had little interest in the technical violators, only the gross violaters IE pirates & multi-riggers etc.

So far we only have opinions from attorneys for and against, but ultimately it will be an opinion from a judge that will matter. Until we get a precedent setting ruling all we can really do is guess.

Personal opinion here: As long as your music was legaly purchased for each system you use, and you can prove it with a manufacterer produced CDG, I wouldn't lose to much sleep over it. Again personal opinion.

Sam

[admin]

Originally Posted by tymzend

I was aware of their statement, but Sound Choice and Stellar Records obviously still feel differently, and are going to start making more of an effort to give people a hassle, I guess.

NO... that's what KaraokeStar wants you to believe. They... are starting the latest round in throwing up this issue. Read the SC and Stellar "Press Releases" below carefully with an open mind and I think you can see a carefully worded dance going on.

PS: I (Admin) added the "red" to make a point they ARE and CAN go after ILLEGAL users. They have no law to stand on to sue LEGAL users, and never have.... ONLY those who are stealing and bootlegging.

[SteveD]

This post concerns a quote from a Yahoo Karaoke group I belong to in Kansas City.

The first is from Stellar Records (Pop Hits Monthly, and Top Hits Monthly) and the second is from Sound Choice. I would like to here some feedback from any Scottsdale or Phoenix Hoster users who have encountered any legal action from using Hoster.

I have CDG's for everything I have transferred to Hoster and I feel everything our company does is legal. It is rumored that they will hit the Kansas City area in 2 months with the same type of campaign. Any comments from Hoster or Arizona Hoster users would be greatly appreciated.

Here is the Quote from Stellar, the Sound Choice quote follows:

Stellar Records
-----------------
ANTI-PIRACY CAMPAIGN STATEMENT 12/28/06

Stellar Records in a collaborative effort with some of its clients,
customers, law enforcement agencies, and in some cases even its
competitors has stepped up its campaign against piracy. As part of
this campaign, Stellar will be directing much of its attention at the
venue level and soon will be taking steps to notify suspected venues
as to the potential risks and hazards involved when using
unauthorized copies of Stellar Records products.

Stellar Records, its customers, clients as well as several of its
legitimate competitors have been damaged considerably through the
illegal copying and distribution of their products, as well as other
acts of piracy, some of which pertain to the violation of trademarks
that are also the property of Stellar Records.

Prior to pursuing any further action, we do recognize the possibility
that at least some venues may not be aware of these violations and
may be engaging in these activities unknowingly. Hopefully this
communication will provide the information necessary in helping to
determine if the use of a Stellar Records product is authorized, or
in any way infringes on its copyrights and/or trademarks. At the very
least, we hope this will provide the impetus to seek legal advice on
these matters before continuing to engage in these practices.

To be more specific, it has been brought to our attention that there
are several venues in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area that have been
promoting karaoke shows which are using unauthorized copies of
karaoke products either directly through the use of in-house systems
or vicariously through the contracting or employment of KJ/DJ hosts
and/or hosting companies. Some of these products have been identified
as karaoke products containing the copyrights and/or trademarks of
Stellar Records including products bearing the trademarks "Pop Hits
Monthly", "Top Hits Monthly", or "Stellar Records". In addition it
has been suggested that there could be other products containing
Stellar Records' copyrights and/or trademarks being illegally
distributed, and an investigation is currently under way in an effort
to identify those products as well.

In order to assist those in determining what constitutes an
unauthorized use of Stellar Records' products, please be advised that
Stellar does not support nor does it have the authority to support
(due to contractual limitations in its licensing agreements with
various publishers) any device which stores, and/or plays karaoke
products from a hard drive or any device other than a device that
plays directly from a CD+G disc. For example products include but are
not limited to the CAVS JB199 as well as the RSQ-500 when play back
is not directly from a CD+G disc. There are a number of software
based products as well like MTU's Hoster, PCDJ, CompuHost,
TriceraSoft, Sax N Dotty Show Hoster, and Dart just to mention a few,
when play back is not directly from a CD+G disc.

Stellar Records does empathize with the concerns of some of its
customers who may want to make copies of their legally purchased
products for the purposes of making back-ups or to rip them onto a
hard drive in a more convenient format. However we do not have the
authority to grant anyone the right to do so. Most if not all of our
karaoke products contain the copyrights owned by parties other than
Stellar, namely the writers, authors and/or publishers of the work
(song) itself to which we must seek prior approval for use in
producing our final karaoke products. The licenses and/or approvals
that we secure from these publishers do not include the right to
distribute their works (songs) on a hard drive. As a result we can
not and/or do not encourage or otherwise promote either the copying
or format conversion of these products for any purpose whatsoever.

There are some who would contend that making back-up copies of these
works or converting these works to a format which can then be used by
some of the above mentioned products could be considered a "fair
use". However, legal counsel for Stellar Records believes this to be
in error, and does not agree. As such Stellar can not give permission
to any user of its products to make copies for any purpose including
for the purpose of making back-up copies, or to convert to another
format. Granting such permission could potentially expose Stellar to
a risk of "contributory" infringement.

While Stellar recognizes it has no standing with regard to its
competitor's products, it is worth noting that through conversations
with some of our competitors, it has been learned that many of these
products are being distributed against the behest of these companies
as well. Notice should also be taken of the fact that it is not
likely that the distribution of products offered in these formats is
authorized, and that at the very least a cursory inquiry as to the
legality of these products should be conducted by anyone using them.

On a final note, illegal copying, distribution as well as other forms
of piracy puts us all at a disadvantage. There are many hard working
DJ's/KJ's who have legally purchased their libraries and have a
considerable investment in karaoke products. It is grossly unfair for
these KJ's to have to compete with those who have obtained their
products illegally or in other "questionable" ways. It is also unfair
to force the many venues that refuse to allow these illegal products
in their facilities either directly or indirectly and likewise have
to compete with venues that are not willing to play by the rules.
Last but not least are the legitimate manufacturers or producers of
karaoke products. It takes a huge amount of effort and resources to
create these products (not to mention risk and investment), only to
have their products pirated, and in many cases even bootlegged by a
number of unscrupulous thieves who will stop at nothing to profit
from the hard work of others.

Stellar Records, Inc.

*****************************************************************
Sound Choice
-----------------
December 2006
Sound Choice has fought piracy for many years. All of you are aware
of the piracy of product, copyright infringement and trademark
infringement. Everyone suffers when this type of activity takes place
with lost revenue. Not just Sound Choice, but DJ's, KJ's and
retailers alike suffer trying to operate legal businesses with lost
revenue.

Sound Choice is taking a proactive stand stronger than in the past to
prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Trademark infringement
suits will be filed in Phoenix, Scottsdale, and outlying areas.
Letters to cease and desist have already been, and will continue to
be, sent to any restaurants and clubs that offer Karaoke
entertainment that have allowed the DJ's and KJ's to commercially
perform in their establishment with any of the following: CD+Gs
illegally copied (burns), CD+Gs illegally copied on to hard drives,
karaoke music downloaded from the internet. As the owner or manager
of an establishment that uses Karaoke entertainment, they may not
understand how serious this offense may be and how it can affect
them. Karaoke hosts who use illegal copies of music also put the bar
and/or restaurant business at risk. One of the possible consequences
that not only the KJ, but also the bar/restaurant are facing includes
fines that have now been increased to $250,000.00 and six (6) months
possible jail time per occurrence. Per occurrence is per each time
each copied song is played. You do the math. Sound Choice will also
be working in cooperation with several manufacturers to be sure these
violators are prosecuted.

In addition, trademark infringement and dilution under the federal
Lanham Act provides remedies including, but not limited to,
injunctive relief, monetary damages, confiscation and destruction of
infringing articles and promotional materials and, in cases of
intentional infringement, attorney's fees and treble damages. Sound
Choice has never given anyone the permission or licenses to download
or copy any Sound Choice music to any type of hard-drives for
commercial use or any other type use because there is no licensing
available for hard-drives. The publishers will not extend licensing
for hard-drive products. It is illegal to copy music to a hard-drive
for commercial use. The Fair Use Act of 1992 provides for personal
use only not commercial.

In other words, if a DJ or KJ has five rigs operating commercially,
they should have five original sets of discs in use, not stored or on
file, to operate legally. We are hopeful that the restaurant and bar
owners and managers will voluntarily take a stand to keep their
establishments legal instead of facing the possible risk and costs
incurred of legal consequences.

Shelby Wood Business Affairs Director Sound Choice

[mindonstrike]

BTW Top Hits Monthly is Panorama not Stellar. I think your confusion is exactly why Stellar has had them in court for several years.

[kilith]

From the post I read on the SC and Steller problem I just want to say Thank You!!! Thank you for sticking up for our rights! Thank You for standing behind us where no one else will! I know I and I know everyone else that use your product will also stand behind you!

You got to fight for your right to parrrrrty lol

[admin]

Thank you. Our digital rights attorney in San Francisco has already been contacted to start an analysis. As far as I am concerned at this moment, there is a "Restraint of Trade" legal violation occuring here. I respect Stellar Records, as they are the reason we entered the Karaoke field in 1996. SC is another story...

We are evaluating our options.

The problem is DISCS ARE DEAD, but those who still make them don't yet know it.

We have been working on securing our software, and now KMA songs and we will very soon have an alternative to offer the producers... who are willing to move to Internet digital downloads.

The real problem is the USA Publishers. I know some of the background facts, and I read the pressures from these Publishers in both the SC and Stellar "position papers".

Also, if you read their papers carefully, they are really hot about the true bootleggers who copy and sell discs (some as many as 5,000 at a time), and those KJs who have bought hard drives from EBAY with 35,000 songs for $400 (including the HDD). Also, SCDG discs with songs that cost $0.20 are doubtfully legal as the going rate for USA royalties is $0.12 to $0.27 per song. Thus, SC and Stellar have my support to go after true bootleggers and illegal theft. We will aid them where possible to protect YOUR and MTU's interest in the Karaoke Industry where we all make our living, and provide a valid service to the world.

However, to claim that you honest customers don't have the legal right to format shift and play from a HDD, or play from copies of your purchased discs is NOT the law as our Attorney tells us. Their Attorney is saying the opposite. There is no court case to prove who is right. If they won't back off, we may have to spearhead a test class-action law suit against them to establish the law in a Court. Frankly, we don't want to do that, but if our product sales become affected, we will.

QED

[Beavis]

admin you need to start selling music as well as software. i would buy all my music downloads from MTU.


i bet alot of others here would also.

anyone else ???

[goonie227]

Originally Posted by Beavis

admin you need to start selling music as well as software. i would buy all my music downloads from MTU.


i bet alot of others here would also.

anyone else ???

I Sure Would I could stop my auto ship of THM's and not have to fight them to load anymore. although the last update fixed all my problems with loading anyway.

[kilith]

yeah I would do it! CAVS make their own why can't MTU start working on making downloads for their own player I know it does take some time to make it legal with the holders of the orginal music but sure I would go with MTU downloads over SC, THM, PHM, or any other company if their quality matched or was better of at least THM (which is OK but not the best in anyway so far I think Zoom is starting to be the best out there) MTU should maybe even setup some sort of download program with Zoom and THM like CAVS has. I would start with the basics of songs like start with DK 1-99 songs list. It would take a heck of a lot of time to build a database but for MTU users I think it would be worth the wait!

[kilith]

I would have to agree disks are dead... but they are also a great proof of ownership

[Beavis]

if you download .kma's exclusively from MTU to play on their software, ownership would be in the software purchase.

kma's are smaller than mp3-g's

[kilith]

Originally Posted by Beavis

if you download .kma's exclusively from MTU to play on their software, ownership would be in the software purchase.

kma's are smaller than mp3-g's

well yea that I know :p and I also know that if you download the songs that your reciept would be your proof of ownership

[admin]

Originally Posted by admin

However, to claim that you honest customers don't have the legal right to format shift and play from a HDD, or play from copies of your purchased discs is NOT the law as our Attorney tells us. Their Attorney is saying the opposite. There is no court case to prove who is right. If they won't back off, we may have to spearhead a test class-action law suit against them to establish the law in a Court. Frankly, we don't want to do that, but if our product sales become affected, we will.

Notice to ALL Karaoke Hosts...


PLEASE... gather information from every Forum, Chat Room, Emails any Producer sent to you (or that you have a copy of in your possession), and hold them safely (write a copy to CDROM). Please forward all documents to MTU using a Support Ticket so the Producers don't know what you have sent to us. Where possible, send URL LINKS so our Attorney has the original sources and proof they were made public.

Read this legal background post I made in 2003.

Read this legally posted letter from Priddis posted in 2004.


In the past when SPIN and KAPA found a Host that was using even one copy of a disc in a show, their tactic to overcome having to force a "test case" was to get a Host to SIGN A CONTRACT that they would NEVER AGAIN copy a disc. This converts from WEAK COPYRIGHT LAW to ENFORCEABLE CONTRACT LAW. I have heard of a USA Court case where a Hostess with a ONLY ONE legally copied disc in her show told SCs owners - SlepTones company - to take her to court. The Judge threw it out saying that SC was wrong. Since there was no legal rulling and "closure" on this, it did not appear when IP Justice searched the legal databases for Court cases. If you know anything about this, please post it here. This could be sufficient to end it all now before it goes any further.


Read what the prior OWNER of S.P.I.N. posted in 2002. He has facts that would be very damanging to a certain company and its owners when he is called to testify in a Court of Law.

Read what was posted on the KAPA site in 2002.

This was a weak defense, and Hosts started to refuse and challenge them, TODAY... they are taking a different approach to attack you. They are going after the BUSINESS OWNER who hires you. This falls under Restraint of Trade, and that action may itself be against the law, and thus may be grounds to bring suit against that Producer as "THE" test case for Digital Rights for Karaoke to be the same as for Audio.

The best offense is a good defense. If we get ALL the facts, together as a class action, I am confident we WILL WIN if it goes to Court. When a technology shift happens, anyone who stands in its way will be run over. Apple ushered in the era of digital download of music. Karaoke, no matter how you look at it, is also entertainment just like audio music.

UNDERSTAND THIS! If you have even ONE song or disc that you did not pay for, you are on your own, you CAN be taken to Court, and you WILL loose your songs, gear and even your car/van you transport them in. Clean up your library NOW!!!!

FYI: We have been told by Hoster customers who are Sherriffs, State Attorney Generals, and Police, that the ONLY WAY your equipment can be legally confiscated, is with a COURT ORDER, executed by any Federal Agent (FBI, US Marshall, CIA or your County Sheriff). If anyone else trys to take your gear, call the Police or Sheriff to protect yourself!

If anyone threatens to take you to court if you don't sign... AND... you have a legal original of each disc you have a backup copy of that you are using, contact MTU immediately. If you call us, say "I am being threatened by SC or Stellar with a law suit" and I will personally be on the phone ASAP.