Legality issues!!

[Rickyokie]

Added by Admin June 10, 2004. MTU paid IPJustice.org to research USA Case Law (tried in Court) if making backup copies is legal, including copying to a hard drive. Read their legal research results. You'll be glad you did!

Added by Admin May 28, 2006. SPIN and KAPA were both started (and ended) by Sound Choice in an attempt to prevent copying in any form; legal or illegal. Legal is when you own the disc and make a backup copy, or "media shift" the content by importing it to a hard drive for use without the discs. Illegal is making copies to give to friends, swap discs with others, sell to your clients, or true Bootlegging where someone makes 5,000 copies and selling them. Today, Both SPIN and KAPA are gone. However, the USA Copyright Law still prevals, and it is now accepted by the industry that making backup copies, or media shifting is within the Law.


Greetings to all.

I have watched this site for a very, very long time and been very interested in the what MTU is offering. Obviously up untill now I have not opted to even post, but to listen. and learn from you.

I am 37 and have been a Kj for 17 years. I have 2 Karaoke systems, 3 employees and 10 yearly contracted gigs, and a lot of music... all legit hardcopies. Over 1,200 Cdg total, plus about 600 dance cd's

I have 1 question that I have not seen addressed here (UNLESS I have missed the post).

I have been a member of Spin and KaPa from the beginning. I pay ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC their dues as well. I firmly believe in everyone getting their nickel! I have ALWAYS had an accountant, paid my taxes and I don't have even 1 "Burned" cd or Mp3.

Some call me a wuss for being so anal. ....WHATEVER!! I believe what is right is right. and it has served me well. What goes around, comes around.

It has been MY experience that 95% of everyone I have EVER dealt with in the field of Dj's and Karaoke that they are always looking for any and every way to circumvent the system every chance they get. And I can count on 1 hand the nuber of people that pay their dues to the right people. Including to the Gov't.

BUT ANYWAY...Here is my confusion.

SPIN and KAPA tell me I CANNOT use this technology that you offer. I even sent them to your site for an oerview of what you are offering. They say it is still breaking copyright laws, as pertaining to the label on the CD's ...NO COPYING OF ANY KIND IS PERMITTED. AT LEAST this is what they are telling ME!! can someone set me straight???

How do I address this with them?? What can I tell them that will make them let me do this, and still retain my statis with them. I am VERY excited about what is offered in the Laptop and I have the money saved and I am ready to buy one right now ....if I can get around this issue!! I am ready for the next Generation!!

Confused, Rickyokie

[SteveWalker]

Rickyokie,

I think the question is:

1. If I own 300 CD's is it legal to compress all the songs to files stored on my PC?

2. If I am a DJ with 3000 files stored on my PC is it legal to actually play any of these songs through my speakers in public?

3. Who must be paid for it to be legal? How can I prove that all the songs on my PC are legal (i.e. I have the CD).

I'll be listening for all the legal brilliance of this forum and don't forget this issue is much bigger than mere karaoke.

Steve

[kedmison]

I haven't been a member of this forum for very long. But I too in the begining wondered what was leagl and what ain't! Seems like the "legal" opinion we seek the more confused it often gets. So if I may enter a little of what I think is common sense I will.

I KJ part time and yes I use MTU to make copies. Copies of "MY originals." I paid for them, I don't want to mess them up. And as long as I not using multiple copies, I see nothing wrong.

I'm sitting here looking at my computer and many of the programs that I have "loaded" on to my computer. Now many of these programs could be run by inserting the disc. However, I notice that these programs all have the "originals" setting on my shelf. Am I illegally using these in my computer for which some of these programs are used to make money part time? Whether it's music or a program, I feel the "law" should reflect the same. And if the Legal Eagles out there want to question me, then they are more than welcome to follow me home and let me show them my originals.

Kelly ( soon to be Kellyoke.com)

[Rickyokie]

Thanks for your quick replies, But I am still at a loss. I need to know what will convince SPIN and KAPA to allow this into our Business'...WITHOUT looking over my shoulder...even once.

I did believe in the common sense approach at one time, but then I never used to speed on the freeway either, till about got run off the road for the 4th time... now I rush right along with them at 75 to keep from being killed.

When I was younger My Martial Arts teacher taught me that the more I learned that I could hurt people, the less I would want to hurt people. It in itself is an art ...the art of Humility and humbleness.
BUT there are those out there that just DON'T care and ruin it for all of us, no matter what the consequence.
NAPSTER was a Perfect example. Now they owe Millions of dollars in royalties and fines because they wern't doing it right.

Hopefully this thread will continue and more input can be heard, I feel that I am not alone here, and that more people really want to do what's right.
I will wait to see what light others might shine on this quandry.
Rickyokie

[kedmison]

Rickyokie,

Bottom line,...don't try to compare speeding or Napster to copying ones own originals. The first two were illegal. Don't sell copies of originals. That's illegal. Don't make two copies off of one original for your two systems; wrong also. You'll need two originals to make two copies for your two systems!

And as far as KAPA and SPIN, sounds like they are doing you more harm than good. Not saying that they don't have a place and aren't doing good work. My conscious is clear.

Kelly

[kedmison]

Steve,

Wasn't sure if your last post was for me or Rickyokie. Had his name but the question seemed to be to me. So,... Using a Sony 400 player, I find myself having to check my discs about once a quarter. Seems where the disc ride in the player tend to scratch a little. If I were to put only about 15 songs per disc I wouldn't have the problem; however right now I have 198 discs with over 4,000 songs and no dupicates. So I'm averaging a little over 20 songs per disc. As I get originals in, I copy off just the ones I need into the computer and then when I have enough to burn I do. I have some "oldies" music with as many as 28 songs on one disc. Believe me, there's a lot more work to do as I do, but again it suits me. Most of what I have is sound choice. But have others as well. If I get a song in with a version that I like better than the one I have, I simply pull that disc out, recopying th disc minus the version I'm taking out and then subbing the new version.

But as always, I'm dealing with songs where I have the originals.
Hoster will be right up my alley when MTU gets it ready. Will save me many man hours as well as burning and recopying.

Kelly

[Alan Bingham]

You know, the subject is not CDG, or copies of CDG onto CDROMS, but importing the songs from the CDG to your hard drives and using the lap top as your CD player, not lugging those CDGs with you at all, but using a computer to be your player. All of those CD+G back neatly stacked away safe at home, nothing to ever get scratched, cause these files are stored on your hard drive.

now here is the real dilemma:

Example; A singer come up and brings their CDG disk, you import it into your system for them to sing, and next week, they don't need to bring it up anymore cause its now a part of your files. You are providing a service to them.

The files are on your system, unless you delete them after the show. Which I personally wouldn't have any problem doing, but who's to say that actually was done.

ADMIN NOTE: Hoster allows playing a CDG Disc a Singer brings to your show, and we automatically delete the file after it is played or Hoster is closed normally. However, if the computer (or Hoster ) crashes before the song plays, the imported file is safe on the hard drive. You don't have to worry about having illegal files (i.e. you don't own the discs) on your hard drive.

This can't be compared to Napster, its not the same. There are several Hoster type software packages out there, all of them import the songs to hard drives, using other audio formats that that on the CD+G.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I feel I will ever have this problem, since I do not host the shows, but being the computer freak that I am, I immediately recognized the power of the Hoster type systems, and the software that MTU produces. And realized that the industry will have to change.

I can see that their will be license fees to pay for songs in the future, probably an annual fee with a service that updates your song lists for you or you could copy your own songs. It will somehow change because it will have to keep up with the technology.

The above hypothetical examples in my opinion would be illegal, but possible.

This topic is really a question of ethics and it is up to us to be ethical in these maters.

Alan

[emwalter]

I am surprised that no one mentioned the obvious answer to the question of legality of copying.

You would need to look up the actual copyright law information, but it goes like this:

You are allowed to make one copy of your original software (and Karaoke is considered software) and cannot be used simultaneousl (or installed) on another machine. This is allowable under the personal use clause of the law, not sure if this includes businesses, most likely it does. You cannot sell, or give away this copy. If you sell the software, you are required to destroy (or, I suppose the law would be satisfied if you gave it to the purchaser of your software) the duplicate copy.

By the same token, you are allowed to do the same with the songs you own (different law, same principle). Even if it is written on the lable of the disk, that you are not allowed to copy it, it falls under the "Fair Use" clause, which in effect, states that you can copy it as long as you are not making a profit from it.

"Fair Use" is also where you are allowed to make a recording of a publicly broadcasted image, or music via video tape or audio tape (the audio tape was what was available at the time, dunno if it also applied to a digital copy, which in essence is a "perfect copy".)

Basically, it would be safe to say, that you ARE allowed to make a backup copy, as long as you own the original. In fact, it would be stupid not to make a backup copy, as long as you don't use the backup for anything other than a backup. If you have two KJ setups, and you only have one original of a disk, you cannont, by law, use the backup in your second system.

As far as the ASCAP and other groups that collect money for the PERORMANCE of songs, you [or the venue wherer you are working] ARE required to pay a Performance License for Public display.

I exclusively use copies of my CDG's, I only have one system, and my originals are put in a safe place, so that I can go back to them in case something happens.

One other thing to think about, I have quite a few discontinued CDG's. You cannot purchase some of them any more, and damaging them would make it difficult if not impossible to replace them. Think about that.

Well anyway, I guess I am done with my orator's pedestal, so I will relinquish it for now.

[SteveWalker]

emwalter,

I agree. I too have a full set of Pioneer CDGs that cannot be replaced as Pioneer reshuffled the deck and many others that cannot be replaced for sure. We have every right to backup our CD's and the manufacturers and stores know it!

Steve

[NOW & THEN]

To all that posted on this subject. Another " hypothetical situation, What if you have made only one copy of your originals for back up, and have inported one copy of each to your hardrive for your show, NOW what about if you do 2 gigs on two computers and have done a mirror image of ( YOUR) hardrive to the second computer for use at the second gig?? Legal or no?

ADMIN NOTE: This would be illegal. Copying a hard drive full of songs and using both in simultaneous shows is IDENTICAL to making copies of your one master disc set, and using both copies in CDG Players at two different shows.


Just a thought. It would seem like you are copying your own material on your own equipment for your own use. I agree that no copies should be sold and you shouldn't pirate a copy to your computer from a customer's cdg BUT, I fully believe you should be allowed to duplicate your own material from your own equipment. You tell me?? Thanks ( new member) NOW & THEN

[Rickyokie]

I myself was asking the same question!
I know that this software only lets you make 1 copy to a harddrive, but you buy another computer and all you have to do is copy the harddrive..or if you can't manage that, ...copy the originals again! and run another show, and so on and so on.

I know a guy out of Phoenix, Az. who is doing exactly that!!
He is a programmer for Cox Cable. He has written his own software to run his karaoke shows from his laptops...like MTU has done.

He has copied his disks and has duplicated his system, to run multiple shows and then some. He has done this with the idea that HE built his system and designed it, so why can't he do it. He put all the work into it and he is not selling his idea, but he does profit from it, because of his karaoke shows. He now has shows is 5 States, From Arizona to Alabama.

ADMIN NOTE: He has the right to distribute HIS OWN WRITTEN program however he wishes. However, if he is also copying CDG songs he has imported, this is INCREDIBLY ILLEGAL!!!


This is a quandry,... I myself would have no problem buying more than 1 laptop, and I have the money to do it, But does it become a moral problem when you copy the Originals to more than 1 laptop...or if you copy your Original Harddrive, or is this a legal question?

Rickokie

[NOW & THEN]

It seems kinda brutal to have to double your investment of disks to run another show! i'VE GOT OVER 5000 SONGS ON 2 120GIG DRIVES THAT TOOK ME years TO AQUIRE. I'm sure i probably couldn't replace all the songs if i wanted to. At $50.00 an hour it will be a LONG time to justify that expense. lol I wish I truly knew what was legal , but as for moral! I think if you pay for a product you should be able to take FULL advantage of that product as far as multiple use and so forth. On the other hand as I stated before " I will not copy someone elses cdgs for my use because I didn't pay for the right to do so.

p.s. Whats the difference between running two computers at a time to do shows at the same time and using the same computer 5 times a week at different shows?? You are still reusing the same media for separate gigs?? right?
Thanks for all the input.

ADMIN NOTE: WRONG! You have purchased the right to use your discs on one system at a time.

If you import them to a hard drive you cannot use the hard drive and the discs at different shows at the same time.

If you duplicate your hard drive to make 2 computer based systems and use them at the same time it it is illegal.

Do NOT duplicate your discs or your hard drive OTHER THAN FOR BACKUP. Yes, you must buy a second set of discs to run a second show.

This is NOT the same as using one set of discs (or hard drive) at multiple shows at different times of the week. You could do this with your one disc set, or with your hard drive computer system. The whole concept is it is ILLEGAL to use a backup at the same time as the originals, or use two copies at the same time. It is ILLEGAL to construct and use two systems at once.

[NOW & THEN]

I guess to be safe if i have 2 gigs at the same time I'll just sell my equipment or my cd collection to the other kj for a dollar till the next day!!! ( JUST KIDDING ) Seriously though I'll just avoid double gigs in the same time frame until I acquire a new set of discs. I hate to use a machine now anyway because the computer setup has me completely spoiled. I now have 5000+ songs in 2 120 gig drives and MTU software, Gr8 sound card and Video card, windows ME 512 mb memory on a 1.5 gig machine w/ a yamaha sound system. I VERY SELDOM have any bugs that aren't simple to fix with a reboot. In short I LOVE IT! WTG MTU.
My next step is to wait for hoster to be as trouble free as my microstudio program, then upgrade to hoster. Dont we have any copyright lawyers kj'ing on weekends??? lol
Thanks again.

[SteveWalker]

You ARE innocent until proven guilty in the USA. Do you think I would hand my $10,000 setup over to a stranger because he says he's from KAPA, ASCAP or whoever... without a court order warrant?

Steve

[emwalter]

Just thought I would interject something else. Remember, you do not actually own the software or the music, you are purchasing a LICENSE to use it. (Most fine prints for software and also music, inform you that you are licensed to use it). Using the copy, as long as it is the only copy being used at any one time should not be a factor, if you have the original, and are not using both the copy and the original to run more than one show. If you are using the original in one system, but also use the copies in yet another show, that would be a violation of your license, if you have two seperate systems, it would most likely be a stretch of the copyright laws to say "I am only using one at a time." If they were a complete system, you most likely could be popped on that.

[Rickyokie]

Just wanted to post a note that BMI had recently tried to hit me up at the club I was in a couple of weeks ago. I stood my ground as Steve Walker had said in a previous post, I was not about to stand there and listen to his BS, and was not about to let him dig through my 648 Cdg's by any means of the word.

He was NOT happy at all and actually became obviously angry at my uncooperation. I told him simply that if he wanted to go through my things to get a warrant!!!

He then told me I had to PAY HIM a BMI license fee then and there, he proceded to pull out a form, and by this time I was very upset at his demeanor and the fact that I was having a hard time running my show, since he kept telling me to put the show on hold while he discussed this with me. I would not!!
I talked to the crowd OVER him while he was talking to me and put my hand in his face everytime he tried to get me to stop.

I told him to invoice me, he said I had to do it there and I had to mail it in. I said invoice me or you won't get it!

By then the crowd was very aggitated as well, he walked away from me mumbling and procedded to talk to the owner.

Since the owner witnessed the whole thing already, he told the guy the same thing ...INVOICE ME and get the hell out of my Bar! He was then escorted out by about 5 not so little customers.
End of story. this was 3 weeks ago and I have not seen an invoice yet.

ADMIN NOTE: Good for you!!! From what County Sherriffs, Federal Attorney in Ohio, and even the current owner of SPIN has told us, that is EXACTLY what you should do unless there is a US MARSHALL with him. Then, you are in trouble.

Do NOT ever turn your possessions over to a stranger. If it goes to court and you lose, then the court will tell you to turn your equipment over to them, NOT an individual. KAPA has no legal authority to do anything at your show. They cannot confiscate your equipment. I have never heard that BMI, ASCAP or anyone except a US Marshall has the right to confiscate your equipment.

Just like your experience, we have heard many stories of Hosts who stood their ground and the "buster" was escorted out of the facility by the "bouncers."

[jim in ohio]

OK, I've read this thread from one end to the other, but no where do I see any comments from MTU.
What is MTU's position on the legality of Hoster, the KJ is no longer playing off discs, if the KAPA police want to see the discs, do you show them your hard drive?? It has no copywrite sticker on it.
How does KAPA know what discs were down loaded into the hard drive to prove piracy??

Could be I am looking at this all wrong, maybe we just need to dump some of our discs, and stick to those brands with no copywrite on them at all like:

Hot Line Karaoke
Backstage Karaoke
Top Tunes
Top Hits Monthly

I'm sure there are more out there but that's all I found in a quick look at my discs, there is not the first thing on those brands about a copywrite or that stupid note on some forbidding public performance like DKKaraoke.
Jim

[jim in ohio]

I just had some new CDG bricks delivered. There is a new propaganda paper in the boxes, and I will quote:

"CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords not computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express writen permission of the copyright holder."

And this one I just love:

"You may not use an archived copy. KAPA is currently working with CDG manufacturers to try to develope an exchange or replacement program for KJs, provided the KJ can submit the orgional broken disc and the orgional receipt. The best protection is to buy two copies of a popular disc."

They are offering REWARDS up to $1000 for turning in a KJ for a long list of things one being:

"It is unlawful to store the orgional disc as a master while using Archive copies in shows. Orgionals cannot be stored as insurance against damaged, lost, or worn-out discs."

Can you guess what brand the bricks are???? I've never seen this flyer in any sound choice product before.

Jim

Where is the smilie face with his hand up with one finger raised in the air??

[jim in ohio]

Can I make 1 copy of an original CDG?
CDGs fall under the protection of a several copyright laws. Under all of these laws, duplication for commercial or profession use is explicitly forbidden without the express written permission of the copyright holder, which in this case is the CDG manufacturer.

Admin note:Read this link on MTU's site. Making a backup copy by a rightful owner is not covered under the USA copyright law, where all violations of illegal copying and sales or distribution are very clearly listed with the penalties. Does that not tell you that the Copyright Law writers INTENTIONALLY did not disallow preventing making backup copies by a legal owner?

If I am hosting a karaoke show, may I record the singers and give them a copy of their performance? In addition, may I charge for the service of copying their performance?

Admin Note: If the Singer brings in their disc, and you play it and record them and give or sell them the recorded disc, to our knowledge it is legal. If you use YOUR music they sing to, and sell or give them a recorded disc it is ILLEGAL; they have never paid for the right to use that song.

No on both accounts. This would be copyright infringement because royalties are not being paid on copyrighted material to the copyright holder(s). The original songwriter is receiving no royalties on this copy. The CDG manufacturer is not receiving any compensation on its copyrighted re-creation of the original work either. In this case two separate and different copyright violations are occurring.

May I use an archived copy of a CDG that I broke in my show?
No. No such archived copy should have been made in the first place. CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords not computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express written permission of the copyright holder(s) which is the CDG manufacturer. (Misleading information had been posted on various sites earlier, but it has since been retracted.)

Go to KAKA site, the above was pasted directly from that site, that's what I'm talking about...

Admin note: Why doesn't KAPA list the exact link to the USA Copyright Law that they continuously illude to and seem to quote? Read for yourself and see if you can find any part of the law that prevents making a backup copy. If you do, please return here and post it for our benefit. Also, this is a public Forum so anyone is able to post a link to the law here. Where is it?


Jim

[jim in ohio]

Man there is one huge mixed bag of information out there!!

http://www.sdmi.org/FAQ.htm

under FAQ

12. Q - Will consumers still be able to copy their CDs onto their personal computers?

A - Yes. The specification allows consumers to copy (rip) their CDs onto their computers for personal use (on their PC, on their portable devices, on their portable media, etc.). In fact, the specification enables consumers to do so as many times as they wish – as long as they have the original disk.


Jim