Legality issues!!

[jim in ohio]

I have a customer service contact I have used at Sound Choice a number of times, I just layed it out to her to get me the official Sound Choice opinion of playing off the computer hard drive, she told me there are a number of good programs on the market that do this.

When she gets back with me I'll post it here....

She said the answer for playing off of backups is already on the KAPA site as I posted above... And yes they have taken lonely KJ's to court, but are mostly looking for those selling, or coping for money.

Jim

[SteveWalker]

George and jim in ohio,

It's simple what I want people to know here. Is it legal to rip their CDG's to files on the PC and use them in public to do a karaoke show? Period. I don't want to rewrite the laws or the way law enforcement is done. That would be a separate thread or debate ok?

What we are talking about is directly relevant to whether it is legal to use Hoster (or similar software) in a karaoke show, right?

Steve

[jim in ohio]

Steve,
That's what I want also, that's why I posed this question to Sound Choice, they seem to be the most vocal on this subject.
When they give me an answer, I will share it with all.

But why haven't anyone at MTU voiced an opinion or pasted a site that gives us the answer???

Come on Bryan, jump in there...

Jim

[SteveWalker]

But why haven't anyone at MTU voiced an opinion or pasted a site that gives us the answer??? Come on Bryan, jump in there... Jim

Maybe because it's "an area that's fraught with shades of grey".

Steve

[MTUSUPPORT]

Here you go guys. This is a link to our FAQ's that has some information on the Legality: www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm

Sorry I have been buried alive under tons of work trying to get Hoster all done and bug free.

[jim in ohio]

You are probably correct, this is not the first program to run off the hard disc, there are others out there that were designed for DJ's playing CD's to use a hard drive, cpu and leave the discs at home. And later offered plugin's to run karaoke off the same program.
I have a friend running two of these, and it is so sweet. If Hoster was going to be on the KAPA hit list, I'm sure they would have shut down those older programs by now.



Jim

[SteveWalker]

I think, therefore that he has answered your question by the very fact that he is marketing Hoster. That tells me that he believes it to be a morally correct product, within the framework of the law, and I cannot believe that he would jeopardize a lifetime of work creating MTU to market an illegal product.

I agree with 100%. Now, buy Hoster and rip your CDG's and go do your karaoke shows. Remember to only put files on your PC that are ripped from your original CDG's that you own and keep your CDG's at home in a safe place.

Steve

[S.P.I.N. LLC]

Well the Karaoke indrustry would have you believe that you may not use a mp3 at your show but this is simply not true. As long as you pay ascap and bmi you may.


And you may also make a copy of a cdg, this right is given you by means of the fair use act.

Look it up

[S.P.I.N. LLC]

As for backing up your origional discs on a hard drive and using it in a show instead of your origional discs.........



It would be a very hard case for the music indrustry to win if they even took it to court.

The law allows you to make a archive, this is a fact of life even if the music indrustry likes it or not. Fact is they do not want you to make backups, it means less sales for them.

Face it guys, most major Karaoke Manf. sell their music to CAVS and they load it on a hard drive for use in shows and clubs, so under fair trade, fair business you can do it to as long as you own a origional.

Dont get caught with music you do not own origionals of or you are breaking the law.

[SteveWalker]

S.P.I.N. LLC,

I agree with your post that we can use the PC to do a karaoke show if we have all the original CDG's for all the files on our PC. I haven't converted over to doing my show on a PC so I'm still using CDG's for my show.

You mentioned CAVS and legally purchasing and downloading karaoke files to the PC. If I do this I will never have a CDG to prove it was legally owned. Do you know how I can prove that my CAVS downloaded file were legally purchased?

Steve

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by George
Do they send you a confirmation email, since they're charging a credit card ?

George,
I have never purchased a file from CAVS but I do own PlayCDG PE. I prefer to have the CDG because of the quality and I can rip from it later in another format in the future if need be.

S.P.I.N. LLC,
Can you give us your take on downloading CAVS file and not having proof of where it came from?

Anybody else out there who has purchased/ downloaded a CAVS karaoke file care to comment?

Steve

[Misschiff]

Wow, I've read all the posts and thought I'd add this to the collection of comments

Based on KAPA's website http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.shtml, here is the following except:

FAQ #10
Q: "I purchased a CDG and wish to send a copy of it to my friend overseas. Their hardware will not play the CDG format with USA specifications. May I make a video copy of the disc for my friend?"
A: "Yes, BUT the original CDG must accompany the video copy at a one to one ratio, and no further copies may be made."

It sounds to me like you CAN make a copy into a DIFFERENT format, as long as you have the original
____________________________________________

Here is another FAQ,


FAQ #03
Q: "May I use an archived copy of a CDG that I broke in my show?"
A: "No. No such archived copy should have been made in the first place. CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords NOT computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express written permission of the copyright holder(s) which is the CDG manufacturer. (Misleading information had been posted on various sites earlier, but it has since been retracted.)"

For experienced DJs, you will also note that the AVLA licence (audio/video licensing association, Canada) does not include Karaoke material, only regular audio CDs (http://www.avla.ca )
____________________________________________________

Here is another website that I came across and has some interesting points to make as well
http://www.karaokeanonymous.com/legal.html
____________________________________________________

One last point I'd like to make is that the law is the law, no matter how you wish to interpret it to suite your ethical beliefs. If you have a serious Karaoke business, do you really want to jeopardize losing you equipment and battling through court? (not to mention the embarrasment at your gig of being caught with unauthorized disc copies). Your show would be shut down and you might even lose the gig!

Personally I agree with most of what was said in the previous posts regarding copyright and justifying using Hoster. I also believe that one must interpret "fair" and "reasonable" as it was intended. I am a singer/songwriter and musician, and I would certainly want credit and compensation for someone using my original material. It's kind of like cheating the government on your tax return -- you might get away with something you think is perfectly reasonable, but if you are caught, it will be THEIR interpretation of what's reasonable that determines whether it is legal or not!

On the bright side, it certainly appears that KAPA FAQ#10 indicates that reproducing the karaoke material in another/different audio format (such as what Hoster software does) is perfectly legal, so long as you keep the original disc.

Well, at least this is a step in the right direction for us all and makes using Hoster perfectly alright!

Regards,
Misschiff

P.S.
Thanks to S.P.I.N. LLC for his additional comments

[Rickyokie]

I have'nt posted in a long time, but I wanted to pass on a letter I recieved, ... this is from a correspondence, I have had with Sound Choice director/General Manager Tom Turner. Even though this coversation was about CAVS technology..it is ideaologically the same thing as what MTU is doing..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net

Thank you for taking the time to write, and please excuse my slow response. I have been out of town for the past two week at a series of trade shows.

The issue of putting music on hard drives is a very complex one. Certainly we at Sound Choice understand the desirability of that for a KJ - the portability, ease of use, inventory protection, and so forth. But there is an extremely significant issue that has not yet been addressed by the management of CAVS, or any of the other hard-drive suppliers.

That issue, very plainly, is the inability and/or unwillingness of these manufacturers to protect the music contents from being copied. The other issue is the ability of anyone to load a set of songs on multiple CAVS units.


You mentioned that you currently own two systems, and that you do twelve shows. Now you are buying your first CAVS unit, which you will get pre-loaded with music on the hard drive.

I am assuming that you will buy a second CAVS unit at some time in the future, for your second system.

When you buy your second unit, do you have to purchase another set of the music software, or will you load the same music from your first unit onto the second unit?

Does your purchase agreement with CAVS permit you to make unlimited copies of the one set of music that came with your original machine?

Do you have a release letter form the music manufacturer, explicitly giving you permission to make copies of your original music purchase?

I am sure that you also realize how easy it is to duplicate the contents of a hard drive. I also know that CAVS provides their customers with instructions on how to load their own music on the CAVS units. There are two very fundamental issues with the capability to do this.

The first is that it is completely illegal. Copyright law (for all copyrighted materials - books, music, artwork, etc.) expressly prohibits the use of copies for ANY commercial use. That means that a copy -either onto a disc or a hard drive - cannot be used for any commercial purpose. A copy cannot be sold, given away as a promotional item, played on a for hire or promotional basis, and so forth.

The second issue is even for ethically fundamental, and that is the protection of the KJs themselves. Hard drive system manufacturers do not care about the sales of the music - they are
only interested in selling the hardware. They do not care if an
unscrupulous KJ buys 10 systems, and one set of music for the entire 10 rigs. They do not care that this KJ, with his much lower cost of (illegal) music per rig can now underbid the legitimate KJ, and run him out of business.

Sound Choice has been fortunate to have the support of the KJ industry for many years. There are many hundreds who have been loyal customers for nearly as long as we have been in business. We feel a moral obligation to continue to try and produce the best possible music for these customers, and to make every effort possible to insure that these loyal customers have a fair opportunity to be competitive businessmen.

So that, in a nutshell, is our position. We will not permit the installation of our music on any hard drive machine as long as there is no system to prevent the music from being copied onto another system. When the hard drive system manufacturers begin to feel a sense of responsibility to the KJ industry, rather than their own sales, and add copy protection to their machines, then we will discuss installation of Sound Choice material on a hard drive system.

I hope that this has answered your question. Please feel free to request that CAVS put copy protection on their machines - pressure from their own customer base is probably the only manner in which to get this accomplished. Until it is, I am sorry to say that you will not see any legal Sound Choice songs on a hard drive system anywhere.

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Tom Turner
General Manager


..................................................................................................

From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net



I will try and go through all of your questions in a little more detail next week, but I wanted to address a couple of issues. First of all, the archiving issue. I have no problem with archived copies, which is indirectly addressed by the Fair Use Act that Joe Senter of S.P.I.N. referenced on MTU's site without explanation.

You are allowed to make a copy for PERSONAL use - singing in the shower, in the car, etc. Just can't use it commercially.

As for archived copies, you are certainly permitted to make them - but they are for record-keeping purposes (hence the term archive). You cannot use archive copies instead of your originals in a show. All the folks who want to hang their hats on legal entitlement to making copies try to use this argument.........

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

End Of Letter...

I just thought that you all may like to hear a point of View Close to all of us From someone that actually does know what is going on.

This was recieved through a personal email and not directly through SC... If someone wants to offer rebuttle I will ask Mr. Turner if I may pass his e-mail on to you ...or I can forward any future posts to this letter on to him.

Rickyokie

[admin]

I personally was in meeting with the owners of SC approximately 3 years ago. This was in Derik Slep's office (President) with Kirk Slep (VP Marketing), Joe Senter (owner of SPIN), CM (SC Engineer) and one of my associates.

The purpose of this meeting was two fold...

First, to discuss their buying 5 of our Karaoke Pro workstations. Several of their staff, including CM, had already come to Raleigh to see customized demonstrations. To date, SC has not purchased any MTU Karaoke CDG mastering or other MTU products.

Second, whether they were interested in working with MTU to develop a copy protection means so their songs could be sold and downloaded over the Internet to play on computers. They were not even mildly interested. It is interesting to read their General Manager stating a different position from the owners in the past. I wonder if the owners know and agree to his position?

During this meeting, one of SC's owners challenged me on our Microstudio product for making backup copies. I asked them what a KJ was supposed to do when the discs he/she has are no longer in production. The immediate and very excited answer from him was "they should have purchased their discs from a company that is still in business!" I, my associate and Joe Senter were stunned by this answer as it was self-incriminating. Do any of you own a SC disc that is no longer in production?

Most of you know very well of MTU's position on doing everything legal. I have been a VERY VOCAL opponent against the MP3+G format because it was designed from the start to encourage illegal distribution.

Further, in our software license agreement every customer agrees to, you do not OWN the MTU software you paid us for. You are only LICENSED to use it. If we find you are violating the Contract Law clauses that you agreed to, which are FAR MORE LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE than "interpreted Copyright violation", we will revoke your license to use our products. If anyone communicates to us they want to illegally copy discs, we refuse to sell them Microstudio to our financial detriment. SC knows very well that MTU is a staunch proponent to legalizing Karaoke and preventing illegal copying and distribution of discs. AND... that we stand firm for the professional KJ who pays good money for legal discs and deserves better quality.

Without SC's help, MTU has continued to move forward to insure we are positioned to be able to provide copy protection for songs sold to run on our computer software players. Everyone who owns Hoster (and now Karaoke Pro 4.008 also) realizes that it is HIGHLY PROTECTED to run only on one computer. Further, we will one day be able to protect songs so they cannot be illegally duplicated or distributed... but be fully legal to backup in case of a hard drive failure. We have several Karaoke Manufacturers interested in distributing their songs for Hoster in .kma file format... without copy protection.

Why does SC now fund KAPPA, after driving Joe Senter out of business, after selling him SPIN? Joe is a licensed Private Investigator who has now returned to Germany where he practices his professional trade.

Why doesn't KAPPA quote the exact laws that state clearly on their web site that a legally purchased disc cannot be backed up?

Why doesn't KAPA list any court cases where they have successfully prosecuted a paying client who is using a copy of their purchased SC discs in their show?

Why indeed! What company would EVER persecute a paying client who is using common sense to protect his/her investment? What Judge would ever hear such nonsense before the court? Do you not recognize the Fear Tactics being used here? Does it make a grain of sense to you? If not, then get on with your lives and your profession!

Many of you know first hand about the quality of SC's manufactured discs, both as to the blank CDR quality and the silkscreening quality. There are numerous references from SC customers in these Forums. Suffice it to say, SC has a vested financial interest in you not making quality backup copies of their product. Until recently, they charged $50 for a replacement disc when a new one was only $30! This brought them a goodly income over the years. Make your own judgements why KAPA holds the position they do interpreting the law the way SC wants to. Joe Senter used to prosecute true bootleggers before the US Court system. Whose statements and background interests make more sense to you?

We have studied the law and cannot find where it is expressly forbidden in the USA to use an archive copy in place of the original for commercial purposes. We have documented our research and links to the Copyright Office Law so you can make your own determination with your lawyer.

SC would save their good name from further ill repute by switching to quality CDR blank media and using high quality silkscreening inks that will not flake off and destroy the discs they sell. Instead, they are shifting to using MediaCloq to protect their discs from being played on a computer, or being duplicated for archive purposes... or being imported into CAVS or Hoster for playback from a hard drive.

I personally have phoned and emailed the MediaCloq developers to try to work with them for insuring songs are protected and yet allow the songs to be imported into Hoster. They have never acknowledged my communications. It is clear they have no desire to work with MTU. Thus, we will use a different form of DRM (Digital Rights Management) to protect songs we distribute... and insure you CONTINUE to have the right to make a legal backup copy of your songs on your hard drive.

[gduns - with the Lord]

I just got a written statement from Christian at Priddis. He also said I could post what he wrote to me. I think they share our opinions, it's your music that you bought, now use it legally, just don't make multiple copies for multiple rigs if you only buy one copy.

Here's what Christian had to say:

Thanks for your concern. You can listen to our position on episode #5 of That’s Karaoke at http://www.thatskaraoke.com.

At Priddis we know that as consumers purchase our music, some may want to put the music on their Mac or PC computer and download it to a personal listening device or play at their workstation at work. Some consumers will use our music for competitions where it’s required to bring 2 copies of the music so they can successfully perform and have a smooth running contest. Some consumers may cut the music down to shorter lengths for their performance. We also understand that as a business owner, one wants to protect his assests. As a DJ, one would want to not only protect and insure their equipment but also their music library. Because of this struggle, there are many different strong feelings business owners, consumers and labels have.

We want our customers to use your music. If you’re a consumer that wants to upload a Priddis disc to a personal listening device such as an iPod, do it. If you need to sing in a competition and have to bring two copies to the show, do it. If you have to cut the music down to be in the contest, do it. Don’t, make copies for your friends. Don’t allow other people to download it off your computer. Don’t sell copies of it. Piracy in this form directly hurts the labels. Use your music, but have integrity with it and common sense.

If you’re a business that wants to protect your assets, and you feel you have to bring and play a backup copy, do it. Don’t make other copies for your other rigs. Don’t make copies and sell them to your customers. Once again, use your music, protect your assets, but have integrity and common sense. If you bought a set of tires for your business, you couldn’t copy them or use “backup” copies. I’m just trying to put it in perspective. However, we (Priddis) offer a scratch/breakage plan for your discs. If you scratch or break your discs, send in the disc and we’ll send you back a new one. No monthly premiums, just a bonus for our customers. If you’re more serious about protecting your assets, the National Association of Mobile Entertainers (N.A.M.E. - http://www.djkj.com/ ) offers protection for you, your gear, and your music. So there are safeguards out there for the DJ/KJ. Priddis has been on the forefront of karaoke technology, but never the forefront of the DJ business so our policies aren’t well known.

If I was going to recommend anything for a business, it would be find a program like Hoster (http://www.mtu.com/basics/karaoke-hoster.htm) and digitize all your karaoke music on a laptop or portable computer. They have great security features for both the label and consumer. And, you don’t have to make “backup” or “work” copies of your discs. I hope to see bigger and better things digitally in the near future.

Another little tidbit is there is a copyright law (section 108 I believe) that states if a phono-recording (audio recording, not a vinyl record) is out of print, it is legal to make an archive copy of it for archival, non-commercial purposes. I’ll let you decipher the meaning of that.

I hope this gives you a little direction. Good luck and thanks for your honest business. It helps keep us in business.

Christian
..............................................................................

I thought you guys might like a fresh perspective

[admin]

MTU ask IPJustice.org to research if making backup copies is legal, including copying to a hard drive. Read this post on their legal research results. You'll be glad you did!

[sevekj]

Originally posted by admin
I personally was in meeting with the owners of SC approximately 3 years ago. This was in Derik Slep's office (President) with Kirk Slep (VP Marketing), Joe Senter (owner of SPIN), CM (SC Engineer) and one of my associates.

[snip]
[/b]

I rarely buy any SC music anymore.
I also hope no one else does either, I don't care how good their sound is. As long as they keep their prices up, sales to me will be down. And if they make it impossible to backup or play thru hoster they are definetly through with me. They are actually causing piracy to fllourish with their protectionism.
It is time they just creat a quality product and sell it at a fair price and let the chips fall where they may. They would do well to do like companies like Karaoke Bay, or Priddis and afew others which I have been actively looking at to totally replace my need to buy anything from SC in the future.

I am a contientious ethical KJ and I plan on following the law as it is intended, regardless of some marketers interpretation.

My Say,

Seve

[Alan Bingham]

Originally Posted by Rickyokie

Thanks for your quick replies, But I am still at a loss. I need to know what will convince SPIN and KAPA to allow this into our Business'...WITHOUT looking over my shoulder...even once.

I don't know why someone would want to join them, unless they owned a store selling CD+G, and then they were losing profits due to people copying disks and passing them around, if your not passing the disks around, you have nothing to fear.

It seems to me that this technology is the same as a player, sure, you could go back to a play and tote all those disks with you, or you can store the data on a hard drive and play.

I think when it comes down to it, no one is going to risk taking you to court over your show, its just not the big of deal in the reality of things, they would take MTU to court for producing the technology before they took the KJ to court, and neither is going to happen...its bad press for them.

[Alan Bingham]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

George,
I have never purchased a file from CAVS but I do own PlayCDG PE. I prefer to have the CDG because of the quality and I can rip from it later in another format in the future if need be.

S.P.I.N. LLC,
Can you give us your take on downloading CAVS file and not having proof of where it came from?

Anybody else out there who has purchased/ downloaded a CAVS karaoke file care to comment?

Steve

I download them, and then use their software to put them back onto disk in CD+G format (but you have to use another companies software to burn the file to disk), I take them to shows and sing them. If a KJ were to tell me that he/she couldn't play my disk, I'd leave and go else where.

Here in town I don't know of a KJ that would not allow the playing of a "non-manafactured" disk.

[SteveWalker]

Alan,

The other problem with downloading karaoke files is as a KJ you do not have the physical CDG to prove ownership or that the files are legal. How would you prove the files are legal if you download them from CAVS?

Steve