Legal stance on Sound Choice and Stellar Records

[bowfishn]

Thanks again Admin for looking out for our intrests.

[monty40329]

The approach taken by SC and Stellar is a foolish one. While legitimate pirates should be tracked down and prosecuted, a KJ or individual who transfers their purchased CD + G's to a hard drive is hardly breaking the law - even if it is for commercial use.

CD’s are dead. There is no doubt of that. What is needed is a licensing and delivery process where legal karaoke material can be delivered via digital methods and reside on hard drives or other digital media. There is no other answer for this problem. Technology will move forward and companies such as SC and Stellar have no real power to stop it no matter how much they rattle their flintlocks.

The real question is how to expand the market for products for singers. The hundreds of millions of personal computers in the world present an inviting platform for karaoke software and music. Turning those platforms into virtual singing machines is an inviting challenge. Trying to strangle that huge potential market is a real study in foolishness.

[SteveWalker]

Karaoke has been ruined by those kj's that cheat the system by not purchasing the karaoke CD+G's. These cheaters copy someone elses CD+G's and therefore never have to pay for them. As a result they can go out and do shows at half price because they have made no investment in the business. I think back to the pre-CD+G days when the Laserdisc was the only medium available for karaoke other than magnetic tapes. You can ask any KJ, who did shows back at that time, and they will tell you they made twice the money per show compared to today. Why? KJ's today are cheating. They have over 100,000 songs in their books. Do you think they paid for all those songs? I guarantee you they are cheaters. Laugh about if you want to but this trend is making the karaoke business a part time hobby for those who otherwise could have made a full time living. What percent of the users on this forum are in the cheaters camp? Anybody want to make a guess?

[hwheeler43]

I agree. I have over 5 k invested in computers, audio & video equipment, mics etc.... Somewhere around $2000 of that is just in CDG's and I only have something close to 4000 songs. I am not sure if the $2000 is completely accurate as I have not added it all up. I started with the 7 Chartbuster 450's and that was over $1400. I have had at least two individuals who wanted me to do illegal stuff. One wanted to combine her 4k songs with mine and the other thought I would give him a copy of my kma files since he was a friend. The answer to both was no. I am often asked to keep a song so that I do not have to reload their cdg each time they come to the show. The answer is always no, but I will try to get that song on my next cdg order. Many of the singers do not have a clue about the expense of keeping up song books and stuff. At any rate, they can bring it on cause I am legal. Now if I can just get Windows XP and all the drivers installed on my backup laptop I will be a happy camper.

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by hwheeler43

I agree. At any rate, they can bring it on cause I am legal.

Good for you hwheeler43. I notice that no one else has come forward to put in there two cents on this. Maybe they have something to hide?

[Lonman]

Gees, you just posted this last night - not everybody checks this every waking minute of the days?
Anyway, are you knocking computer users in general like those of us who use Hoster? Or just the truly thieving kj's that buy a preloaded hard drive off of an auction site? I have over 14K songs with dups (11k w/o dups which is the number I advertise) that's still on the low side for many & have a corresponding cdg sitting next to the computer with me at every show. Nothing in my hard drive that I cannot prove I actually have the original for. Funny thing is I still get people coming into my show that go to the 100K library computer shows down the street & say I still have stuff that they don't??

I get hosts that come in asking to swap libraries to copy & I ask them why, their reply is so we can grow each of our libraries. I ask them what do they have, they respond SGB, Backstage, NuTech - etc...., I laugh & tell them well I can understand why you would want to swap your crap to gain my quality Sound Choice, Chartbuster, Pop Hits, Top Hits, Dk, etc...Besides, there would be absolutely NO benefit to me giving up my library to someone else - especially a competitor, why would I want to give them the edge I have over them right now by having songs they don't??? STUPID!!!!!!

[admin]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

Good for you hwheeler43. I notice that no one else has come forward to put in there two cents on this. Maybe they have something to hide?

I think most of the registered members here are legit. Those who steal have probably quit this Forum a long time ago.

I think you're coming on a bit too strong here.

[George]

HOT off the presses.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology...3691170&page=1

They now have establisdhed a legal precedent.

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by admin

I think most of the registered members here are legit. Those who steal have probably quit this Forum a long time ago. I think you're coming on a bit too strong here.

This is not an argument against Hoster nor is it an attack on any of the members of this forum. I would hope that most KJ's discover Hoster as it may be the best program available for doing karaoke shows.

However, I bring up a legitimate problem in this industry and you especially should know that this is true. I've observed the behavior of those kj's in this business for over 19 years and I know for sure that many of them don't see it as a problem and would cheat in this regard. It is not "a bit too strong" if you are being objective. Just remember that I am not concerned about how cheating affects the sales of Hoster. I am concerned how cheating affects the "income" of the legitimate kj.

[ddouglass]

I look at it as hwheeler43 says, I have some where around $8,000 invested in my computers, audio equipment and CDGs. I can't even hope to recoup that amount and the additional I will spend to keep my library up within a reasonable amount of time simply because of the illegal KJs in the area. I refuse to do anything illegal even for friends.

[bobcox- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

Good for you hwheeler43. I notice that no one else has come forward to put in there two cents on this. Maybe they have something to hide?

That sounds like an accusation to me??.

I have been checked by sound chioce, 7 years ago when i was using disc.
100% legal and they checked both my systems that night.
we were the only ones in the area that passed.
we now have over 200,000 in equipment and disc.
and are 100% legal always. and i belive the people on this forum are too.
and should be treated as such, unless you can prove otherwise.
theres my two cents worth you ask for. Bob

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by bobcox

That sounds like an accusation to me??.

I apologize if my post was "a bit too strong" but the purpose of the post was to make people think about this issue.

We have many kj's in my area boasting of their 100,000 song list. The kj would have to buy 6667 CDG's costing $146,674 (100,000/15 * $22 = $146,674). To pay for all of this, the kj would have to be paid $403.00 a show and work 7 days week for a year without making a profit.

Suppose a rock band went out and robbed the music store of $146,674 worth of equipment, then went out to perform in the clubs. Would you be surprised if they were arrested at one of the clubs?

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir!

[kilith]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

I apologize if my post was "a bit too strong" but the purpose of the post was to make people think about this issue.

We have many kj's in my area boasting of their 100,000 song list. The kj would have to buy 6667 CDG's costing $146,674 (100,000/15 * $22 = $146,674). To pay for all of this, the kj would have to be paid $403.00 a show and work 7 days week for a year without making a profit.

Suppose a rock band went out and robbed the music store of $146,674 worth of equipment, then went out to perform in the clubs. Would you be surprised if they were arrested at one of the clubs?

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir!

No you are right on that. Just today while I was out doing my other job which happens to be collecting money in bars for a company that does viedo games, dart boards, pool tables, and whatever else.... I was talking to a guy that does karaoke I guess... He said recently he bought a 500gb hard drive off ebay with 100,000 songs on it from a guy out of flordia. He paid around $450.00 for it. The person who sold the hard drive PIRATE!! and guy that bought the hard drive moron.... but hey now days who can you turn in and who will listen anyway...

My system I took over from my parents 9 years ago. The system (or shoudl I say company?) is a total of almost 14 years old. We have almost the full collection of DK Karaoke... I have seen DK on what I suspect to be a CAVS system which I know CAVS does not have access to this and also that this person (which is different from the person above) just bought their system. Yeah you can get DK off ebay but people are not selling it cheep. I have seen the cheepest being $999.00 +S&H and most being $1400.00. I also suspect this person to be running copied versions from the old karaoke company she used to work for which also used pirated CDG's on their old systems.... so i guess she went ok well they did it I might as well too maybe?

My system is 100% legit and I stick with only one system just for that reason. What reason you may ask.... lol the reason like stated in the post before mine.... $146,674..... yeah i dont have that kind of money.... lol

Anyway it seems like this is not much that can be done anyway... who knows.

[quaizywabbit]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

Karaoke has been ruined by those kj's that cheat the system by not purchasing the karaoke CD+G's.

Karaoke was ruined years ago by all of those idiots who were stupid enough to pay for the same poorly recorded song put on several disks because they wanted the "one" song on the disk that actually was new....


We let them ***** us.............

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by quaizywabbit

Karaoke was ruined years ago by all of those idiots who were stupid enough to pay for the same poorly recorded song put on several disks because they wanted the "one" song on the disk that actually was new....We let them ***** us.............

Duplicates rarely adds value to your song book!

Karaoke may have been ruined years ago (for kj's) and for many reasons but it would take some very convoluted logic to use this excuse to justify pirating karaoke songs today.

[kilith]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

Duplicates rarely adds value to your song book!

Karaoke may have been ruined years ago (for kj's) and for many reasons but it would take some very convoluted logic to use this excuse to justify pirating karaoke songs today.

Just like Steve said... what gives them the right to keep doing it. It is not the people only that copy songs over and over to have on several disks... it is the people that go out and buy the cheep equipment and then copy songs from system to system from 1 disk that hurt karaoke.

[shanold1]

I found this artical on the
http://www.drudgereport.com/
12/31/2007
if this is true acording to
Recording Industry Association of America
hoster is not legal
steve in albany or





By Marc Fisher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 30, 2007; Page M05

Despite more than 20,000 lawsuits filed against music fans in the years since they started finding free tunes online rather than buying CDs from record companies, the recording industry has utterly failed to halt the decline of the record album or the rise of digital music sharing.

Still, hardly a month goes by without a news release from the industry's lobby, the Recording Industry Association of America, touting a new wave of letters to college students and others demanding a settlement payment and threatening a legal battle.

Now, in an unusual case in which an Arizona recipient of an RIAA letter has fought back in court rather than write a check to avoid hefty legal fees, the industry is taking its argument against music sharing one step further: In legal documents in its federal case against Jeffrey Howell, a Scottsdale, Ariz., man who kept a collection of about 2,000 music recordings on his personal computer, the industry maintains that it is illegal for someone who has legally purchased a CD to transfer that music into his computer.

The industry's lawyer in the case, Ira Schwartz, argues in a brief filed earlier this month that the MP3 files Howell made on his computer from legally bought CDs are "unauthorized copies" of copyrighted recordings.

"I couldn't believe it when I read that," says Ray Beckerman, a New York lawyer who represents six clients who have been sued by the RIAA. "The basic principle in the law is that you have to distribute actual physical copies to be guilty of violating copyright. But recently, the industry has been going around saying that even a personal copy on your computer is a violation."

RIAA's hard-line position seems clear. Its Web site says: "If you make unauthorized copies of copyrighted music recordings, you're stealing. You're breaking the law and you could be held legally liable for thousands of dollars in damages."

They're not kidding. In October, after a trial in Minnesota -- the first time the industry has made its case before a federal jury -- Jammie Thomas was ordered to pay $220,000 to the big record companies. That's $9,250 for each of 24 songs she was accused of sharing online.


Whether customers may copy their CDs onto their computers -- an act at the very heart of the digital revolution -- has a murky legal foundation, the RIAA argues. The industry's own Web site says that making a personal copy of a CD that you bought legitimately may not be a legal right, but it "won't usually raise concerns," as long as you don't give away the music or lend it to anyone.

Of course, that's exactly what millions of people do every day. In a Los Angeles Times poll, 69 percent of teenagers surveyed said they thought it was legal to copy a CD they own and give it to a friend. The RIAA cites a study that found that more than half of current college students download music and movies illegally.

The Howell case was not the first time the industry has argued that making a personal copy from a legally purchased CD is illegal. At the Thomas trial in Minnesota, Sony BMG's chief of litigation, Jennifer Pariser, testified that "when an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." Copying a song you bought is "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy,' " she said.

But lawyers for consumers point to a series of court rulings over the last few decades that found no violation of copyright law in the use of VCRs and other devices to time-shift TV programs; that is, to make personal copies for the purpose of making portable a legally obtained recording.

As technologies evolve, old media companies tend not to be the source of the innovation that allows them to survive. Even so, new technologies don't usually kill off old media: That's the good news for the recording industry, as for the TV, movie, newspaper and magazine businesses. But for those old media to survive, they must adapt, finding new business models and new, compelling content to offer.

The RIAA's legal crusade against its customers is a classic example of an old media company clinging to a business model that has collapsed. Four years of a failed strategy has only "created a whole market of people who specifically look to buy independent goods so as not to deal with the big record companies," Beckerman says. "Every problem they're trying to solve is worse now than when they started."

The industry "will continue to bring lawsuits" against those who "ignore years of warnings," RIAA spokesman Jonathan Lamy said in a statement. "It's not our first choice, but it's a necessary part of the equation. There are consequences for breaking the law." And, perhaps, for firing up your computer.

[ddouglass]

There was another article in the New York Times, that the Oregon Attourney General had files a counter to the RIAA lawsuit againts the University of Oregon students that RIAA was trying to invade their privacy. So the fight goes on.

[kilith]

Originally Posted by shanold1

I found this artical on the
http://www.drudgereport.com/
12/31/2007
if this is true acording to
Recording Industry Association of America
hoster is not legal
Steve in Albany, OR.

If you go and read the copy write laws about CD's and copying them to computer... a law was already passed to allow this to happen. Where they are saying it is illegal is the sharing of these copies from hard drive to other people across the internet. This also deals with record companies and not Karaoke companies. They are two separate entities one deals with it’s clients as in the people who sing, record, and produce the CD’s. Companies like Sound Choice and others of the sort have gone many years without paying a cent to recording companies. That is the reason that DK and other companies are now out of business. However when it comes to karaoke CD’s there is no law to say it is or is not illegal. Before reading this crap like above go and read the copy write laws yourself. This article was only against for what I understand saying copying with intent to share is illegal.

[admin]

Originally Posted by admin

Every so often, someone just has to start this rumor mill up again.

No laws have changed. MTU paid for LEGAL RESEARCH on the rights of the BUYERS. The MANUFACTURERS will ALWAYS tell you what they "want you to believe", which has never been proven by law.

Read this extensive thread on the legalities discussion.

Steve in Albany, OR... thanks for posting this latest position by RIAA.

No laws have changed, just the INTIMIDATION SOURCE... now RIAA. Their position is not legally sustainable. Read the legal research MTU paid for.