cd+g

[spalfrey]

first time user here. I've been wondering wether it's possible to copy mp3g and convert them back to cd+g so that they work on my wifes karaoke player, I know it can be done the other way round.

[admin]

OK, now I'm up on my soap box...

From an engineering standpoint, the MP3G formats (I believe there are several versions) have absolutely NO SIMILARITIES to the internationally accepted, ISO standards CD+G format. MP3G is a very simplistic format developed quickly for public distribution.

In most MP3G files, both the music and the lyrics are copyrighted. This is true unless both the producer and song writer put their work in public domain.

If you made your living from composing music or writing lyrics, would you put your work in public distribution without any income? Neither do other professionals. The only exception is if someone wanted to "introduce" their work to the world as a free demo. I have never heard of a professional doing this.

Thus, to my knowledge, MP3G songs are illegally created and distributed. If you want to create an MP3G song in your own house, and play it only in your house, you can legally do this. You will not find professional, commercial sites distributing them. If they did, they could be sued as Napster was.

If you legally obtain an MP3 file, your use of it is legal. If not, you are ripping off the original artist and recording company who created and mastered the song. In all cases, buying the Audio CD and importing tracks as .wav files is superior, because MP3 compression removes some of the master file contents. For example, using our Vogone (or any other vocal removal program) to process an MP3 file converted .wav file will not do as well as processing the original .wav equivalent from a CD.

There are programs that can convert an MP3 song into a WAV file. With Karaoke Home Producer, you can then add lyrics in sync to the .wav file and export it as a CDG file. You can then use our Microstudio program and a CDG capable CDR drive to write it with other CDG songs to a CDG disc to play in your wife's Karaoke player.

The CDG format is the mainstay for Karaoke around the world. All of MTU's software tools work with it. MTU is not contemplating supporting any of the MP3G formats (I'm the Pres so what I say goes... ). If everyone in the world converted to this format, there will be no more Karaoke CDG players, hosted shows (public shows must be legal, or the FBI confiscates all equipment, computers, discs and songs), and no more Karaoke production companies.

I for one, do not like that alternative. IMHO... MP3G is a very nasty concept.

[spalfrey]

Thanx Admin for your reply. There are still a few things I want to clarify. I was'nt trying to get around any copyrights is it legal to add graphics to music I already own? If so is it possible to remove vocals as well, that is why I was asking about mp3g. And this Karaoke home producer is this a piece of software? You also said about cdg I thought they were not the same as cd+g???

[bose]

Admin, aren't you being just a bit hypocritical when you condemn the use of mp3g software etc. seeing as you are launching your very own software (Hoster) which uses compression technology to run a karaoke show from a PC?

Quote 1...

"If everyone in the world converted to this format, there will be no more Karaoke CDG players, hosted shows (public shows must be legal, or the FBI confiscates all equipment, computers, discs and songs), and no more Karaoke production companies."

So above you are condemning the illegal use of compressed CD+G karaoke files, and yet below...

Quote 2...

"(Talking about Hoster). This new product will allow you to host a karaoke show from your PC computer."

What have you got to say for yourself?

I think you should make it perfectly clear to potential buyers before you launch Hoster that it would be ILLEGAL to run a karaoke show in public using Hoster and compressed CD+G tracks (whether the format is mp3g or the format you plan to use).

Bose

[George]

WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT OF WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG, PERHAPS ONE OF YOU ASTUTE GENTLEMEN CAN SATISFY MY CURIOSITY ON SOMETHING I'VE BEEN HEAD SCRATCHING ABOUT EVER SINCE I FIRST SAW IT. ON SOME CDG'S, ALL HITS VOLUME 8012 MEGASTANDARDS, FOR ONE THAT I CAN LAY MY HANDS ON, THE MANUFACTURER MAKES THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT.."NOT FOR PUBLIC PERFORMANCE UNLESS PLAYED AT FULL VOLUME" PRAY TELL WHAT'S THE VOLUME LEVEL GOT TO DO WITH MAKING IT RIGHT OR WRONG?

TAKE CARE,

GEORGE

[bose]

I think the manufacturers are having a little joke there. As you say, the volume level has nothing at all to do with being able to play the discs in public.

If your discs are originals, you can play 'em in public, fear not.

Bose

[spalfrey]

Nice discussion but anybody got any answers to my second posting????????????????????????

[George]

Regarding second posting..1-Unless you own the copywrite, can't see how you can own any music. 2-Vogone can remove or reduce vocals 3-Yes,Karaoke Home Producer is software. 4-CD+G and CDG are the same. Hope this helps.

Take care,

George

[admin]

Spalfry, to answer your second post, what you do in your own home is legal - in any nation I am aware of, but I am not a lawyer. As the saying goes, a man's home is his Castle. God help us when the State invades our private abode for its purpose! I am a Republican, in case you didn't know yet. Then it is time to move to Mars or Alpha-Centauri!

My statements should not be construed to grant any legal authority to a position, one way or the other (non-disclaimer). Spalfry, please understand that I am not pointing a finger at you. Many honest folk look at the free aspect of MP3 and MP3+G and think it is OK. I, for one, do not. If I am wrong, time and the law will tell. I state my position from a moral and ethical standpoint. I am simply using this thread to clearly state my postion on MP3+G.

As to performing music outside your home (with our without vocals removed, it is my understanding that if you buy an Audio CD, and you go to a show where the "performance royalties" are paid (ASCAP in the USA), then it is legal to play your song there in public. You have paid the piper.

If you play an MP3 downloaded song in public that you did not buy, it is my understanding that this is an illegal act. e

As to displaying lyrics outside your home I have heard some arguments that it can be construed as "publicly publishing" them. So, if you only display the lyrics to the singer, to my understanding that is not "public publishing," i.e. implies legal. In a legal venue where a show is performed, if the songs have been purchased and the performance royalties are paid, I see no basis why it would be illegal. If it is performed at a "private" party (Church, Social Club, invited guests only, etc.) I have found no laws pertaining to this at all.

The only voices I have heard who have objected to this are those who "think" they can move in and demand more royalty into their coffers for what others have done. The artists rarely get a dime of these royalties. That... IMHO... is not right either. [b]Those who do the work, deserve to reap the fruits of their labors.

Bose... Love ya brother
Let me be more specific on my MP3+G postion. When someone creates a CDG song with the music and the lyrics in sync to the music, and someone else writes a program that is designed to strip the RW (lyrics/graphics) blocks from the CDG file in order to attach them to an MP3 compressed audio file, with currently available tools, the song can be changed so the original owner/producer is no longer identifiable.

Why would someone do that? Expressly to rip off the work to place it in "public access" so anyone can download and use it. That is just as illegal as downloading an MP3 file. Yep.. illegal! Do not construe "public access" with legal "public domain" where the person making it available has the legal right to choose to make it public. The persons who are publishing MP3+G files, at least that I have seen, are not the legal owners, but are making the choice to make it public. Thus, it is an illegal act. This is what I am objecting to.

I read again yesterday on the Forum you emailed me where KHProducer is being discussed for swapping. These are clearly illegal operations, even identified by you as such. MP3+G was an active topic of discussion there.

Commercial Karaoke Producers do not make enough money to sustain massive theft of their work. If MP3+G proliferates, they will find some other industry to make their living in. That's a fact of economic life. Then, you will only have bootleg songs to play. But then the're free so what the heck!

The Producers that turn out good sound use recording studio equipment, musicians, artists, vocalists and mix engineers to create their music. That costs about $2,000 a song when it is all done. How would you like to spend $2,000 doing something you are proud of (and expecting to make a return on your investment), then I come along and rip it off and post it for free Internet download to everyone in the world? Oh yeh, forgot to mention... I won't even give you credit for your work! Course not! I'm bootlegging it and everyone in the world knows that's what I'm doing! That's what MP3+G is. For those who are old enough to have been taught Right from Wrong (rapidly becoming a dying generation), MP3+G is wrong!

I just read that Paul McCartney is now in the "British Billionaires" circle. Hip Hip Hooray!!! The artist won! Doesn't that just feel right when you hear it?

As I get older and look back at what I have done to make an honest living to get here, I appreciate why laws exist. My position has changed. What about you? Who knows, maybe you will run for Parliment one day and help rule Britain for the next generations. Are you now preparing to rule your nation? That is what the younger generation is supposed to do as we older blokes pass on. Do you see where I'm coming from yet?

The first clues I receive identifying a professional is they EXPECT to pay for their karaoke songs. Tell me one legal distributor who is making MP3+G songs available and I'll eat my words. I never expect to see legal distribution of this format. It is not designed to be used by the legal community, but rather by the bootleg community.

What about Hoster? Yes, we are compressing CDG discs to the hard drive. What format? A custom one that does not allow ripping the lyrics/graphics RW file from the total song. Surprised? You shouldn't be.

What about securing songs? Can anyone play them? It will take an MTU program to play our "WMF" CDG compressed format file. That won't be hard to buy, and when we make a player only version, far less expensive than Hoster. With our file format, when a manufacturer encorporates their copyrighted graphic logo into the song, their song is clearly identifiable and public distribution would be illegal. That is the best MTU can offer at this time. If the producers want to join with us and evolve a secured format, Hoster could encrypt the song so it would only play on the Hoster it was encoded on, or purchased and downloaded to run on.

What about selling Hoster compressed songs over the Internet instead of on a CDG disc? That is a dream we are moving toward. It will take a lot of work, but our core file structure could allow this. Our design focus was "legally selling and paying royalties" where MP3+G focus is "free bootleg distribution". We talk to many folks who are both producers or wanna-bes. Everyone wants to make money doing it, and most of them want to do a better job than "those that are out there". Laudable concepts! I encourage every one of them, and yet try to walk a thin line between supporting legal production and distribution, and clients who want everything for free.

Don't you think MTU could sell more product if we encouraged free (read illegal) distributon of songs? Man, wake up! I'm swimming up stream against a 30 knot current at flood level! I do not believe I am self serving on this matter (contrary to what Sound Choice believes ).

However, if I won't take a stand for what is right, I can't expect the next person to either. So... what flock do you choose to fly through life with?

Thus sayeth Admin... thus stateth my soap-box position again.

QED

PS: If I have offended anyone, I am sorry. This has been stated from the start to be my position. We will sell our products to whoever buy them for legal purposes. Our Microstudio product license agreement (as will Hoster) forbids use for illegal copying. Our goal is to participate in a legal, enjoyable industry where we can make a living.

[bose]

It's nice to see you replying to a difficult post, Admin.

I always do my best to inform you when I see KHP being ripped off anywhere (especially seeing as how I've paid for it).

None of your thoughts above addresses the fact that it is illegal to run a karaoke show in public using Hoster.

Bose

[George]

Bose, I believe the man addressed it quite clearly. If I'm reading what he says correctly, it's not the compression that's illegal, but the format used, and he explains why.

Take Care,

George

[Corbin]

Hey Admin and Bose!


I've been reading all of the posts for the past few months. I want to tell admin the way I feel about the whole mp3+G thing... I feel just the same...I have spent thousands of dollars on our karaoke collections and hate it when these "Bar Hoogie" people download a few songs and suddenly declair themselves a "Karaoke Host", then under bid me on a job. These people cause me so much grief! Most of the bar owners I deal with are instant gradifacation dumb a__es that will drop you and your contracts the instant someone comes along with a cheaper price... Of coarse they are cheaper! THEY STOLL ALL OF THEIR MUSIC! We are a mobile disc jockey service. Together we have over 50,000 compact discs. We paid for them, and it isn't right that others can just rip off the music. To qoute a great American, Rush Limbaugh, "If you want something, you pay for it!"
Thanks MTU for your great products...
Later,
Corbin

PS... LOL - Way to go Bose, you're always giving them hell! LOL

[admin]

Bose, why do you say it will be illegal to run a show in public with Hoster? I'm interested in what's behind your postion.

[bose]

Hello Admin,

Here is why it's illegal. I suggest you speak to BC from Sound Choice who will more than likely back up this theory...

When you buy a karaoke disc, let's take a Sound Choice disc as an example. That disc is licensed. Right? Yes.

When you make a copy of a track or disc, you create an unlicensed copy. Whether it's a direct copy of the disc, or if you have extracted the tracks, compressed them, stored them in any format, be it mp3+g or any format - that file/data/music is unlicensed.

Now, if you're using that file/data/music for home use - fine - it's called fair use, and you're not breaking any law - provided you own the original disc.

Use those tracks in public, and you're breaking the law, quite clearly. Whether you own the original or not. The copy of the music/lyrics you are using is not the licensed one.

When you buy a licensed karaoke disc, it is THAT DISC and that disc only which is licensed for public use - not a back up copy of it, or a virtually stored version of it.

That is why running a karaoke show using Hoster (or any PC based software), where you are not playing the tracks from the original licensed disc is illegal.

Bose

[George]

Come on Bose. What you say may or not be true, but to recommend anyone from Sound Choice as corroboration !!!!
What would you expect them to say ??

Take care,

George

[bose]

Well, what I said IS true as far as the UK is concerned. I am pretty certain that it's true for the US as well.

I suggest speaking to a company such as Sound Choice, because they are well acquainted with the licensing system.

There is no difference (as far as licensing is concerned) between using a load of copied discs and using a PC based system and software such as Hoster. The only physical difference is that you don't actually see a load of copied discs with a PC based system. That's how people seem to justify it.

The fact that the owner may or may not have the originals is beside the point, you are still using an unlicensed copy.

I suggest MTU checks with the US licensing bodies, I'm not sure what they are called.

Bose

[George]

Bose, how can you expect an honest unbiased interpretation of the laws from a company who has taken the posture that no one has the right to copy any of their products for any purpose? Who wants the "law according to Sound Choice"? Over here that would be about like asking the Dairy Association if cholesterol is harmful.

Take care,

George

[bose]

If you don't trust Sound Choice's opinions, then speak to whatever body it is that controls music licensing in the US. One of them's called ASCAP I think.

Bose

[George]

I'm not the one who's questioning MTU and their Hoster program.

George

[Yorkie]

Bose
you are absolutely correct about the laws appertaining to
the copying of CDs etc in the UK.... apart from one thing.
The PPC (formaly the Performing Rights Society) which is the main
Body responsible for enforcing the protection of copyright within the recording Industry as well as distrubuting the fees it receives from the licensing of public performances to the artist's it represent's...states that under the Recording Copyright Act
(revised ) 1998 It is an offence to make a copy of any copyrighted
material, in any format ,whatsoever. Full Stop. (Period).(This is obviously a much scaled down representation of the Act. Its actually over 400 pages long)
The PPC is "Policed" in the UK by Trading Standards Departments
of all local (Council) Authorities.
Anyone caught using "copied" material (even if they own the original disc) at public performances, is liable under English Statute Law.. to have the equipment used for playing the copyrighted material (Amps, Speaker's, player's etc,) confiscated
as well as any equipment used in the copying of the said material
(computer's, burner's, even the software used!!) as well as fine's
and there is even a threat of imprisonment
Now I don't mean to scare anyone with this post.. but this is the
Law in the UK.. We use back up copies at our clubs because our
Insurance Company will not insure our collection of Karaoke and
Audio CDs housed on 4 site's, and insist we use back ups .
We have been told by the PPC and the Local Trading Standards
Department we are breaking the Law and as such we have asked for a Judicial Review to be Heard in Leeds Crown Court in April 2002... I will let you know the result... My next post could well be from a prison cell

Best Wishes From Yorkshire...STEVE