Smoking Venue And Hoster

[marklwood]

Just let me be clear if I haven't explained it yet. I absolutely agree with everyone's right to not be subjected to second hand smoke in their own home or on public property. I don't want to force my poison on anyone. I wouldn't come to your house or your business and require you to allow me to smoke. I also believe that the taxpayers have every right to legislate behavior in places that are owned, or maintained by the public. I would even agree to a smoking ban on public roads. All I ask is that when it comes to my OWN property, I should be able to chose what goes on there. I don't think the government has any right whatsoever to regulate an otherwise legal behavior on my property, whether or not I allow the public to congregate there. My beef is not about smoking specifically. It is about the government taking away my right to choose how I use/abuse my own property.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

Just let me be clear if I haven't explained it yet. I absolutely agree with everyone's right to not be subjected to second hand smoke in their own home or on public property. I don't want to force my poison on anyone. I wouldn't come to your house or your business and require you to allow me to smoke. I also believe that the taxpayers have every right to legislate behavior in places that are owned, or maintained by the public. I would even agree to a smoking ban on public roads. All I ask is that when it comes to my OWN property, I should be able to chose what goes on there. I don't think the government has any right whatsoever to regulate an otherwise legal behavior on my property, whether or not I allow the public to congregate there. My beef is not about smoking specifically. It is about the government taking away my right to choose how I use/abuse my own property.

I understand what you're saying Mark, however, I think that the gov't looks at it like there are some ppl who are not aware of how dangerous smoke is and can walk in unknowingly and have their health endangered. Similar to if you were working on asbestos pipes inside you could not allow anyone in there. Asbestos has been linked to one cause of ailment, just as suredly as cigarette smoke has to many. And similar to, if you use any peanut product you have to post it clearly thoughout the bldg as it has an adverse effect on a few rare cases. Smoke and asbestos has a well known effect on every person's lungs.

I think it all started with "smoking rooms" and/or portions of a bldg. where you could smoke, but it didn't work. Diffusion of light airborne particles is just too fast.

And now for the rest of the story....

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by bryant

I understand what you're saying Mark, however, I think that the gov't looks at it like there are some ppl who are not aware of how dangerous smoke is and can walk in unknowingly and have their health endangered.

I'll give you that one. But I did say I kick out the idiots. Ignorant people, on the other hand, have a lot more leeway. How about I get a door sized copy of the warning on cigarette packs and use it to cover my door?

Originally Posted by bryant

And now for the rest of the story....

Now your just makin' fun of me.

[Musicman51]

"I could have a weight limit and not violate any discrimination laws."
Marklwood, i'm not sure what part of the country you are from, or who your legal advisor is. Ever heard of a discrimminatory class action law suit? Gay folks are also not a protected class of people. But i dare you to hang a sign on your establishment that says no gays allowed. Good luck with that one.

Dale, i am so glad your club holds some things sacret. Our little American Legion club does as well. Now as far as New York, New York goes. Hey i'm a practicing hillbilly, not a redneck..don't confuse the two. No old school bus motorhomes here. But i do have part interest in a "private Liquor Manufacturing Facility". My heritage. But i enjoy singing sinatra, bennett, williams {andy}, cole....Not just Hank Williams. I'll tell ya, i would much much much rather a singer come up and sing New York, New York, then what ya call that there honky tonk badoonka donk..anyday. So can i sing at yur club dale...?????

[RIKKI TIKKI]

OK, let me chime into this volatile conversation.

First let me say that I think Apple is being overly cautious in regards to the declining of warranty repair to machines that belong to smokers... Just look at their history, as it applies to the invention, the inventor, the apple/microsoft split... most of my Mac friends swear by the product... kinda like Hoster compared to Brand X, It's what you are used too, in most cases, and very rarely have I seen a Mac user switch to a Windows Based computer... but now Mac Users can access the MicroSoft programs, so that argument is kinda mute...

Here in Arizona, they passed the no smoking ban state wide in November of '06. First off I'm a Non-Smoker, and couldn't be happier! I've been doing Karaoke in Bar's around here since 1994, and was quite sure that I would probably die of second hand smoke, but that was a choice I made in order to do Karaoke, because all the venues allowed smoking, to some extent, and the smokers outnumbered the non-smokers in these establishments. Then the legislators in 2006 rammed a bill through the State House to eliminate smoking, and the smokers forgot to vote, and the bill/ban was passed quite easily... We have had three years of smoke free establishments, and honestly I can see very little difference in the closing or opening of new bars, restaurants, or what we would consider normal Karaoke Venues, or a drop off of the business in established clubs, due to the smoking ban! I think the added pressure of drinking & driving, getting caught behind the wheel while inebriated, going to jail, paying court fees, paying attorney fees, losing your driving priviledges, and /or the doubling of your car insurance rates is a risk that smokers, and non-smokers, have not been able to justify, and are staying home from the bars, after getting busted the first time, or the hassle of making sure a designated driver is present, or the added cost of taxi service and these tough economic times is depleting the customer base for our workplace...

As to the topic of age demographics contributing to the raucus atmosphere in our workplace, it's not true in my 3 or 4 gigs that I currently work at, but it's not contributed to being non-smoking or smokers, but the fact that no matter what your age, there will always be the very few that can't handle their alcohol, and be labled as troublemakers, and have to be dealt with, and thus ruining the fun for the majority that can!

I also vote for not discriminating against us "New York, New York & My Way" ol' fart types, I get just as tired of hearing "Picture" or AC/DC, and cringe when I hear and see some of the Hip Hop lyrics that roll across the screen and come out of the speakers just because the "F Bomb & other vulgarities" can be screamed out, and always gets a rise out of the audience. Too bad, because some of the music is really good!But as I say, I'm equal opportunity Karaoke and if it's in the book, you can sing it... these x-rated lyrics are about the only thing I refuse to play, or exhibit in my books... so problem solved, even though I know by the language that comes out of the mouths of some of the younger crowd (boys & girls), notice I didn't say ladies & gentlemen, that it would sometimes be acceptable, and yet I still find it vulgar and inapropriate...

Thanks for letting me vent! 'Nuf Said!

[RandyMcCharles]

My favorite KJ has a policy: if you swear into the mic you get a warning. If you do it again you are off the stage for the night. The only exception is if the swearing is in the lyrics and you aren't being an ass when you sing them.
This is an easy policy to enforce as everyone else in the bar supports hime when this happens.

[Musicman51]

Nicely said rikki. I am a "Kids" and "Young Adult" person. Allduring the time my daughter was growing up, and especially during her high school years the house was always full of kids. And now that she's in the army, on leave, she calls her friends, and the house is again full of young people. When she's gone, and there is only the dog and i here..it's just wayyyyy to quiet. But i have faith in, and enjoy todays youth. I don't believe in bad kids, just those without the proper upbringing and supervision. And by the time they're older, it's too late. But i agree, there are always those that have the foul mouth, and prove their ignorance. I always laid down my rules, and most of her friends didn't have a problem with them. To this day, those same young people stop by to check on me, and see if there is anything i need. It's tough to be a kid nowadays, much more then when i was younger. But i agree 100% with rikki kids are ok in my book. My daughter turned out ok, is serving in the US Army, and making a career of it. She's in germany, and should be rolling in here in a couple of days. The holidays are just a bit tough on me since my wife passed. But we're gettin' by.....Now karaoke time!!!

[billyo]

i had my share of playing in bars, and i'm trying to stay away from it, So. Fla. is a tourist state, so around spring time, we get a lot of outdoor concerts, we have the MTV hip-hop concerts, etc. and also during spring break we get a lot of teens from diff. states, i'm not sure if smoking in public was outlawed, since we have a popular night spot here in West Palm Beach called "city place" and if you walk around you'll see a bunch of ashtrays along the area, the only law they kinda enforced here are the the teens that walk around with their pants hanging out almost to their knees. ( no wonder they walk like ducks ) when i used to play in bars spring time is the busiest time, and thats when you see the unrully one's, college kids that get so wasted and they will sing in a groups and drinks on their hands etc. just like what Rikki said i will let them sing but foul language i won't take,if they do i cut them off right there and there.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

"I could have a weight limit and not violate any discrimination laws."
Marklwood, i'm not sure what part of the country you are from, or who your legal advisor is. Ever heard of a discrimminatory class action law suit? Gay folks are also not a protected class of people. But i dare you to hang a sign on your establishment that says no gays allowed. Good luck with that one.

Actually the country as a whole has already proved that gays are not a protected class. How many states either don't allow, or outright criminalize gay marriage? Sounds like discrimination to me. But I wouldn't give up my Tuesday night "Boys" for anything. Some of the best customers I have. The reason you think they are a protected class is that even though they are a minority, they are not afraid to stand up for themselves.

As far as fat people, the airlines are a great example. The airlines will charge them for 2 seats. If the media happens to pick it up, they will apologize and offer some form of money or free tickets to make up for it. That is the difference between market driven pressure and discrimination.

I think I mentioned this before, but I hope you guys are not upset by my comments. I am passionate about my views on civil liberties, but I thoroughly enjoy a spirited debate on the topic.

Just to give you more fuel, I have a couple of other angles for you. How about building codes or health department/EPA as a reason to not allow hazardous chemicals in a building you may some day sell to someone else? Like lead paint, or a previous meth lab inside the building.

[muzicman144]

Mark, I, too, try to make a stand on civil liberties and I'm very anti government when it comes to regulating our lives. But, the truth is they are so imbedded in all facets of our lives that they have obtained the foothold to do as they please.
NOw they regulate your liquor sales, as a public place, they regulate your bar as to health regulations, they tell you how many customers you can have at one time, the list goes on and on with regulations you MUST follow as they ALLOW you to operate your "private" business. At any time, the powers to be could invoke ways and means to put you out of business if they wished.
No wonder private citizens who operate "private" business' are so upset. I'm on your side.
muzicman144

[marklwood]

The concept of a Health Dept started as an opt in program. It was really just a marketing concept to assure people that eating here was safe as opposed to eating somewhere that wasn't certified. The government just grabbed on and took control because no one opposed it.

[RandyMcCharles]

Mexico is less regulated. I prefer that even though it is 'buyer beware'. Regarding karaoke, there are 2 bars in Mazatlan I have found that I like and 1 that I dislike. The first 2 get my business the other does not. Neither does it miss my business because it consciously caters to locals and discourages tourists. What I like is they they choose to operate as it suits them rather than are required to operate as the gvt mandates.

[RIKKI TIKKI]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Mexico is less regulated. I prefer that even though it is 'buyer beware'. Regarding karaoke, there are 2 bars in Mazatlan I have found that I like and 1 that I dislike. The first 2 get my business the other does not. Neither does it miss my business because it consciously caters to locals and discourages tourists. What I like is they they choose to operate as it suits them rather than are required to operate as the gvt mandates.

Randy,

The Mexican Government has more laws and regulations than the average tourist realizes! The enforcement can be where you are noticing a little less pressure, and that is only because the municipalities are grossly undermanned. But, if you cross the line in a foreign country such as Mexico, as an American, Canadian, Japanese, or .... Citizen, you'll find a sharp distinction of differences that we sometimes take for granted, in the USA, or Canada!

Being a resident of a border town with all kinds of Mexican Heritage, I have seen the Latino Culture change about as fast as their American border cities. In a tourist area such as Mazatlan or Nogales, you will see little differences... but go to a non-tourist area, and you will find a totally different culture, along with the old Mexican traditions, and incredibly different values...

Back to the subject at hand... most all of Mexico allows for smoking in public, but each private business, can allow for the smoking/non-smoking segregation, that is the same as most of the USA, but there has been many businesses that have posted the non-smoking signs...

You say the bars in Mazatlan, that you prefer, vary in the way tourists are treated... I don't know if you are bi-lingual or not, but I would like to hear the conversations amongst the employees/staff once the tourists have gone back home, and they are left with the local residents... Most treat their clients like locals if they can see that they are bilingual, and respect their culture... if you are a "Gringo" and cannot speak the language, they will do what is necessary in order to get you to spend your American/Canadian dollars, and then ridicule you in the local tongue, once you are gone, whether it's the Bar Servers, Curio Shops, Restaurant Waiters, or Local Police.

Mazatlan is on the coast not far from Culiacan, which is the heart of the State of Sinaloa, which is the drug capital ( Also Produce Capital! ) of Mexico. If you get a chance, go to Culiacan, and see the difference between a commerce center, and a tourist trap... See the militia carrying machine guns through the public streets, and the federales who don't take any lip from anyone, and all those endless smiles, that are missing... and you'll see how the drug cartels have changed a country that didn't know better, and doesn't have the government manpower, to reverse the situation and protect its citizens, so they feel safe going out on the street at any time, day or night... to a smaller extent, we in Nogales, Arizona, have seen the same thing happening recently to our sister city of Nogales, Sonora, Mexico...

Tourists have been staying home because of the fear of being an innocent bystander when the drug cartels, and the federal police, start shooting without regard of the innocent people that have been caught in their crossfire... it's a way too frequent occurance in the Border Towns of Mexico, such as Tijuana, Nogales, Juarez, etc.

But for an enpoverished country like Mexico, the tourist trade will probably take a back seat to drug trafficking, since an Uzi will make you more money than a pina colada! They used to say that if you don't go looking for trouble in Mexico, that you won't find it... but that's not exactly the truth anymore!

[RandyMcCharles]

Great info. I should have been more clear. By "Mexico is less regulated" I was referring to bars and restuarants in regard to smoking, entertainment, hours of operation, no shirt no service, noise loudness, etc. The get to set more of their own policies than their counterparts north of the border do.
Perhaps I should also have mentioned that the liquor manufacturers behave like mob cartells, breaking legs if the bar owners sell a competitor's product. I was also told that Mexico requires foreign owners to have a Mexican business partner (who usually does little more than collect a salary).
I also recognize that in tourist towns like Mazatlan that the posted price is the tourist price and that locals (or those who pass for locals) often get a lower price.
The one karaoke bar I found that I don't like was very blatant in favoring local regulars. The KJ knew them by name and continually rearranged the rotation moving tourist slips backwards. Not that there were many tourists as like us, no repeat business.
The other 2 bars were very friendly, with locals and repeat tourists in abundance and everyone treated fairly. They got our repeat business last year and will get it again next month.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Perhaps I should also have mentioned that the liquor manufacturers behave like mob cartells,

Sounds just slightly worse than Missouri. If I want Jack Daniels, or any other particular brand of alcohol, beer included, I have one choice on where to get it. I can't even go to a liquor store and take advantage of a sale. In fact, I pay $3 more a case on average for a case of beer, than the regular price at Sam's club.

If I want some esoteric brand that doesn't have a distributor in my area, too bad. Not allowed to import it even though I live 5 miles from Kansas that may have it available.

It doesn't matter if they treat you like crap or not, you still have no other choice. I call that a government sponsored monopoly. What would you call it?

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by marklwood

It doesn't matter if they treat you like crap or not, you still have no other choice. I call that a government sponsored monopoly. What would you call it?

In Virginia, all hard liquor is sold by the state in State controlled ABC stores, but a bar/restaurant cannot buy their liquor "over the counter", instead they have to make their purchase through the state mandated requirements. You pay whatever price the State decides to sell it for, or, you don't get it. Silly, but true. The state of Virginia sells you the alcohol, then locks you up for drinking too much of it. Only in America.
muzicman144

[bryant]

Originally Posted by bryant

Ahhh, we have that in common, as my grandson is coming tomorrow (daughter induced).

Grandson came on Tuesday, I'm at my daughter's house now.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by bryant

Grandson came on Tuesday, I'm at my daughter's house now.

Congrats Bryant. Merry early Christmas to you. Now I'm going to have to pressure my daughter into not letting you be the only one on here to get a grandson for Christmas. Due date is Monday, God willing.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

Congrats Bryant. Merry early Christmas to you. Now I'm going to have to pressure my daughter into not letting you be the only one on here to get a grandson for Christmas. Due date is Monday, God willing.

Thanx Pal.
Bryant