KIAA Membership

[RIKKI TIKKI]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

As i stated, preception is 99.99999% % of the game.
George, you are correct in stating that everyone will have their own perception of what & how SC is going about protecting their business.

I have read every single posting on this forum on this matter, and i haven't read anything that says sound choice doesn't have a right to pursue their property. No disagreement there. Again..preception.

I agree... although it is your right to form an opinion, whether in agreement or discontent.


Simply not true. Many innocent individuals have been faulsly accused, a few have had their suits dropped. Not one, not one single apology to these individuals by the sleps. Right now, if i were in virginia, and i owned a bar, and a kj asked me to start up karaoke, what do you think i would say to him? Already there is a 20% drop in available karaoke night spots in virginia already. have legitimate kj's doing business as usual? where? Sir, you are naive.

Naive... probably true, but we all have the same industry to protect, if we want to perpetuate the Karaoke business, that we all stand to lose, if piracy or bootlegging is allowed to prosper, and don't police our own...


NOT....and heres a news flash for ya. Neither are the majority of crooks. Concerned? of course. Not about the legality issue. But of the manner sound choice is using, costing a loss of jobs, and ruining the reputation of legal kj's. Sound choice does not want a single case to go to trial. They are in this for the money, and they have demostrated, they don't care who gets injustly accused. It is cheaper for an accused legal kj to settle, then to pursue his innocents, and reputation. Sound choice is counting on this.

I'm sure you are correct on this assumption, simple warning labels, and chain letters, wouldn't stop the mass production of bootleggers, or the illegal sharing by ignorant KJ's, or the purchase of that unlicensed copy of the Eagles cdg. They (SC) have drawn a line in the sand, and I am not so sure that they are not prepared to go to court if and when the cases involved justify a court action to recoup any perceived lost revenue. There will be some innocent KJ's involved, who should be able to satisfy the court. "Innocent until proven guilty", if you choose to take the stand in your defense. We all have the right to a fair trial, and face our accuser.

I personally don't own that many sound choice disc. I will say they are actually no better then chartbuster, music maestro or pocket songs. They do the job. However, sound choice does not pay anymore for rights to a song, studio time, duplicating, recording gear, musicians then chartbuster, or any of the other top karaoke manus. And the other CDG manufactures have something sound choice no longer has now. Thats class, and respect of the karaoke community. This is of their own choosing...sadly

This is sounding more like a KIA {A} form letter the more i read it and reply to this.

Your stance on the K.I.A. {A} is documented and understood... I think their purpose has been more than slightly misconstrued, and with their teaming up with Sound Choice, Stellar, the Sleps, etc. has poisoned the effect that an internal "Karaoke Police" could have in helping to straighten out the business end for the legitimate KJ's.

Sound Choice again, in my opinion, " is or was " one of the best producers of Karaoke cdg's... and this opinion is about quality and perception by this lowly KJ.

K.I.A {A} form letter? ... lol

No disagreement here...Show me a posting on this forum, where someone suggest sound choice sit still for this? please. It's not the pursuit the legit kj's object to..it's the method, and the damage caused by this method. The loss of clubs, the loss of reputation, the bad name this is giving the karaoke industry as a whole. I do this as a hobby. And i'll tell ya...the ripple effect is already starting where i'm at. I predect, clubs will be going to DJ's, single accoustic guitar acts, small combos' piano singalongs, comedy acts, pool tables, video games. And...we have the shoddy messy tactics of the sleps to blame.
Don't come crying to me rikkie.

Blame the bootleggers, and pirates. The Slep's method is probably not the best, if they are falsely accusing the legitimate KJ's, then their birddog's that are informing their legal eagles, are at fault, and should be taken out in the alley, and sternly talked to...lol

Let's ask the DJ's, single accoustic guitar acts, small combos, piano sing alongs, comedy acts, and maybe include the jukebox industry, and small time bands, what they think of the Karaoke Industry. Ouch!

It's the Karaoke Industry, that wants to coexist or compete with these proven forms of bar and nightclub entertainment, and if the Karaoke Industry can't or won't see the harm that has been done by the bootlegger's or pirates, and we don't weed them out internally (the word snitch comes to mind) by legal precedents, and court action, then we only have ourselves to blame!



It's not legal action actually..it's the threat of a legal action. Big difference there. If you think for one minute sound choice is going recoup any substatial lost profits by taking a few kj's and bars to court, and making them settle for 6 grand, then you arenaive. Sound choice is trying to make examples of these poor slobs, and nothing more. And...don't be surprised, when someone holds sound choice to task, and wins... KJ's don't have deep pockets, but the bar owners do...and i can hardly wait. Sound choice stepped on the wrong toes there. The club owners hold the purse strings for the entire karaoke industry..hang on for the ride of your life.

If the threat of a court action is all it takes, then the warning on the jewel case about unlicensed use would have sufficed... it didn't, so the next step is legal action...

Bar Owner's pockets are not as deep either right now, if they were at all... That is why they will be the one's looking for the precedents that these cases invoke, and will act with a two-edged sword once the legalities of the issue have been thrust in their face, and they must decide whether a KJ is legal or not, and if it's worth pursuing in a court of law...



Wrong, a boycott of sound choice will also hurt the retailers who legally sell sound choice disc, also any future legal download sites. Also legit kj's. I am a legal operating kj. If there were a boycot of sound choice. I would out of respect for my fellow kj's also not purchase or even play any sound choice disc. And if you think i'm a minority, again...you are naive. I also predict, because of the actions of sound choice, the KIA{A}, the slep costopo, that the download part of sound choice, although i wish their endevour a complete success. Will Ultimatly be unprofitable. Kj's..myself included, by all this confusion alone...will not feel safe downloading anything. Right now, i say over 80% of ALL kj's have absolutly no idea what is a legal download site, or if there actually are any. How the sleps will over come all this mass confusion they have started, is anyone's guess. But i betcha, it will show in profits. Perhaps the slep clan can take all the download sites out there to court to? think so? As i read the majority of forums, and have KJ & dj friends in many states, and hear even way up here. Sound choice is digging their own grave.
Again......remember that perception thing i mentioned earlier? Confusion, rumors, misinformation, threats of law suits, club owners dropping karaoke. It's happening as i type. yep..... {shakes his head and sighs}

Noted, and I agree with almost all of this assumption... and I am not an employee of the KIAA. (Sorry Dale!)

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Wow. This discussion is really heating up. It looks like most but not all of us agree that we don't like KIAA's methods and even question what their goals are. But we all do agree that there is a piracy problem that makes it difficult for manufacturers and legit KJs alike to stay in business. So how about some ideas of what Sound Choice could be doing instead to address this problem?

I get the feeling SC is assuming every kj using a computer is guilty until the kj proves he is innocent or pays SC off, in which case, they don't care if one is guilty or not. Money is "extorted" using the laws of the land. Only in America!!! Contrary to law where one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. This, I believe is what is throwing public opinion against SC. The iron glove approach does not sit pretty with most common folks.
muzicman144

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

again..old news and no one disagrees with you. But the way they are doing this is not right..plain and simple. Again, as far as the downloading thing goes, mass confusion, and there are other sites that are legal. Chartbuster says they are, and priddis music {music only} claim they are. So your info is again not entirely correct. And a news flash. Not everyone that disagrees with the way the slep clan is doing this is illegal. As i stated i know of disc kj's that wouldn't purchase another sound choice product if it was pressed in gold.

Not sure who you talked to at Chartbuster, the only place they told me there are legal downloads of theirs is their own site in beta testing.
But I was talking SC tracks only, there are currently no authorized download sites for SC music other than Stingray - for home use only.

[Musicman51]

But I was talking SC tracks only,

Now why in the world could someone think i was only speaking of sound choice tracks? I was speaking of all download sites in general. There are other tracks besides sound choice out there sir..right? Just not very clear in your postings. But speaking of sound choice tracks in particular, i bet there are still 1000,s of KJ's that don't even know that. And i was speaking of chartbusters own site.

[Musicman51]

Again Rikkie...nothing new in your reply. Same old routine. I just wish one, KIA{A} member could post something with facts, statistics, and information. So far nothing..just same old blanketed inuendoes..everyones a crook, the kj's, club owners, the KIA{A} or else.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Wow. This discussion is really heating up. It looks like most but not all of us agree that we don't like KIAA's methods and even question what their goals are. But we all do agree that there is a piracy problem that makes it difficult for manufacturers and legit KJs alike to stay in business. So how about some ideas of what Sound Choice could be doing instead to address this problem?

How about getting their field agents to approach the KJ, identify themselves and ask to see there original disks to verify legality. If the KJ refuses, then make the assumption that they have something to hide and sue. I know that if someone approached me with proper credentials from Sound Choice/Sleptones and asked to see my original disks, I would gladly sit down and go through with them with him/her. I would however not accept the same if the individual was from the KIAA as they have no legal rights at all in this.
Then if they found one or more that I didn't have a disk for then let's discuss a settlement. I would then agree too the $6500 settlement as opposed to going to court. Quick and simple with less tying up the court's time, legal fees for both of us, and the bad press they are getting for their tactics.
Suing the venues is not only rediculous but is also shooting themselves and the entire industry in the foot. Most owners do not know where their entertainment, be it kj, dj, or even live, get there music from or whether any of it is legal. Oh I forgot....if they hire a KIAA certified KJ then they are guaranteed they are legal (or were at the time of their audit). This is like suing a home owner because he used an unlicensed plumber to fix a leaky faucet.

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

Now why in the world could someone think i was only speaking of sound choice tracks? I was speaking of all download sites in general. There are other tracks besides sound choice out there sir..right? Just not very clear in your postings. But speaking of sound choice tracks in particular, i bet there are still 1000,s of KJ's that don't even know that. And i was speaking of chartbusters own site.

I was making a comment on that manu that happened to be being discussed. But I am willing to bet that most (higher majority) of the download sites that are out now are not as legal as most might think. This is speculation on my part, but it's just as much speculation to think they are as well, people have it in their mind set that if they pay for it, it's theirs & legal to use for whatever manner - and of all the sites I have seen, almost all of them have had written somewhere in their TOS agreement that the tracks downloaded are for private - non-commercial use only.
This includes SC via Stingray.

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

How about getting their field agents to approach the KJ, identify themselves and ask to see there original disks to verify legality. If the KJ refuses, then make the assumption that they have something to hide and sue. I know that if someone approached me with proper credentials from Sound Choice/Sleptones and asked to see my original disks, I would gladly sit down and go through with them with him/her. I would however not accept the same if the individual was from the KIAA as they have no legal rights at all in this.
Then if they found one or more that I didn't have a disk for then let's discuss a settlement. I would then agree too the $6500 settlement as opposed to going to court. Quick and simple with less tying up the court's time, legal fees for both of us, and the bad press they are getting for their tactics.
Suing the venues is not only rediculous but is also shooting themselves and the entire industry in the foot. Most owners do not know where their entertainment, be it kj, dj, or even live, get there music from or whether any of it is legal. Oh I forgot....if they hire a KIAA certified KJ then they are guaranteed they are legal (or were at the time of their audit). This is like suing a home owner because he used an unlicensed plumber to fix a leaky faucet.

Hell i'll show anybody my discs on the spot. I had someone actually ask to see the 8125 I have because they 'said' they'd never actually seen it in existance, I pulled it out & showed them. Whether it was someone trying to 'sting' me or literally someone curious, I don't care. If I have time at a show, i'll show you any disc I own.

[muzicman144]

Just a thought, i guess the next "piracy" lawsuitswill be ASCAP/BMI -SEASAC suing the live acts for singing their songs commercially without paying. Same thing isn't it. Presently, they only go after the venues. I see no difference. It will never end.
muzicman144

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

Just a thought, i guess the next "piracy" lawsuitswill be ASCAP/BMI -SEASAC suing the live acts for singing their songs commercially without paying. Same thing isn't it. Presently, they only go after the venues. I see no difference. It will never end.
muzicman144

That one is already covered by my license agreement with these guys as a venue owner. Live performance, that is. The karaoke issue is for displaying the words on a screen that SC or others have produced. This not only requires a separate license for the audio portion and live performance, that is supposedly paid to the original artist/copyright holder, but also the lyrics display. Then the CDG producer for displaying their words requires that you paid for the CDG.

Also, it isn't a flat rate, or anything simple like that. It is figured on your total occupancy as if you were completely packed every night that you have karaoke. Then, if you charge a cover, (I don't) they want a piece of that too. That also is charged like you were completely full every time the doors are open.

Then you have to pay again for the privilege of playing the CDs in your jukebox, that you already paid for, even if the total income from your jukebox doesn't even cover the license fee.

[marklwood]

Just as a little more info on the licensing. BMI is really the big boy. They represent over 200,000 performers and songwriters. ASCAP only has about 60,000. SESAC is primarily European, Gospel, and Classical, but does represent Bob Dylan and Neil Diamond. One exception that I know of is Billy Joel. He negotiates his own performance fees. Does your venue have his OK?

Even though BMI has the biggest number of members, ASCAP is the oldest and still runs the show. They are the ones that primarily generate the airplay records that all of these guys are paid off of. ASCAP also has the lion's share of the biggest names. They pay the big boys most of the money and leave the rest without any compensation at all. BMI is a little bit better at feeding the small fish. They are also a non-profit. Probably why they have so many more members. SESAC is pretty much a non-issue in the US. If i didn't pay them, I not sure if they would even notice or care. I have never even received a renewal notice from them in 10 years. I just pay them at the same time I pay the other 2.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by marklwood

That one is already covered by my license agreement with these guys as a venue owner. Live performance, that is. The karaoke issue is for displaying the words on a screen that SC or others have produced. This not only requires a separate license for the audio portion and live performance, that is supposedly paid to the original artist/copyright holder, but also the lyrics display. Then the CDG producer for displaying their words requires that you paid for the CDG.

Also, it isn't a flat rate, or anything simple like that. It is figured on your total occupancy as if you were completely packed every night that you have karaoke. Then, if you charge a cover, (I don't) they want a piece of that too. That also is charged like you were completely full every time the doors are open.

Then you have to pay again for the privilege of playing the CDs in your jukebox, that you already paid for, even if the total income from your jukebox doesn't even cover the license fee.

I understand how that system works. That license only covers you as the venue owner, not the entertainer. I understand how and why they have not pursued the bands or "live acts". My question was what stops them from pursuing touring cover acts or even local acts other than the problem of collecting the money, which, would be the same problem with collecting the money from a kj.
Seems they (BMI/ASCAP, etc.) have the same option as SC to pursue the bands. A name is all they need, band's lead singer for example, and bingo, a court could rule just as they do in these karaoke cases.
muzicman144

[Lonman]

Difference is the band is not stealing the music.
ASCAP used to go after bands & dj's until they found it more sense to go after the clubs that hire the bands.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by Lonman

Difference is the band is not stealing the music.
ASCAP used to go after bands & dj's until they found it more sense to go after the clubs that hire the bands.

The band or DJ is not obligated to pay the performance fees. That is strictly the venue's responsibility. It is not a matter of preference, that is just the way they made the rules.

The only thing the DJ/KJ is directly responsible for is the music must be legally obtained.

Interesting recent article pertaining to this very subject
http://www.citypaper.com/music/story.asp?id=19721
I have had this very thought, but not to this extent. I was just going to go with BMI and not play the others music. The reason I was going to pick BMI is that they are a non-profit. You just can't pick one though, fear of complaints kept me from doing it.

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by marklwood

You just can't pick one though, fear of complaints kept me from doing it.

Unfortunately that is true, the club needs to pay all even for tv, radio played, jukebox (although covered in most contracts with the jukebox comapny), any kind of entertainment that covers others musics, even dance floors or cover charges apply.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by Lonman

Difference is the band is not stealing the music.
ASCAP used to go after bands & dj's until they found it more sense to go after the clubs that hire the bands.

Basically, the bands are stealing the music and using it in a commercial way,
They just aren't pursued because it was found to be almost impossible to collect monies, as the bands would break up or take on a new name, therefore the venue was the easy target. There are no rules set as to whether a venue or performer can be targeted for these fees, and, anytime they choose, they can pursue individual performers using said music for commercial gain. I only inserted this because i believe they will be the next target for another orginization like KIAA.
JMHO
muzicman144

[billyo]

i dont know how and why they would go after dj's, from what i learned as long as you legally paid for a certain song or bought a regular disc, its up to you what you do with it, you can use it as a coaster if you wanted to, i learned that, and i posted this before, if you paid lets say $10 for a disc, portions of that goes to all the people that created that disc,in other words everybody gets paid, and you also did your part of paying them by buying the disc, and that is what the artist, producers etc. wants, they want the dj's, or non dj's to play it in public for them hear, if people likes it , then they ( the public ) might go out and buy it, it's free advertising to them .is it maybe that the the manufacturers of these disc didnt pay the people they're supposed to pay the reason why they're going after kj, dj's, venue owners? this is just an opinion

[Musicman51]

I know one thing for sure. Karaoke hard drive piracy didn't start over night, and the strong armed tactics by the slep clan is not going to stop it over night. A good theif will move from place to place, use a central disc collection to be shared by several pirates, for legal purposes, and swap hard drives that contain stolen, traded, or shared cdg disc. The slep "investigators" can't tell the difference between a lap top, cavas system, and cdg player from the news accounts i've read.

They have managed to turn one kj against another, thrown inunendoes, misinformation, and labled 90% of all hard drive kj's a theif. They todate have not stopped, or even slowed down hard drive piracy, if you think they have you're mistaken.

Not one, not one post of any so called member of the KIA{A} have given any factual, statistical proof or fact based information of any kind..just wide spread accusations. I'll tell ya, i for one, and i think by what i have read on many forums, the majority of kj's have just about had enough of this. Of both the slep gang, and the fly by night KIA{A}. And are starting to not take this fiasco seriously. They (slep costopo & fly by night KIA{A}) went about this whole thing all wrong, they just don't care about the reputation of the innocent. And that is what bothers me about this whole fiasco. It is cheaper for a wrongly accused kj to pay the 6 grand, then to hire a lawyer and fight for his reputation. And the sleps, and their paid by case win attorneys are counting on this.

Of course i care about bootleggers and pirates. You're not going to stop it..period. The US Government with billions of tax dollars, can't even slow down the war on drugs. Yet the sleps, with no experience, limited resources, paid per case win lawyers, and blind so called "Investigators" are going to stop karaoke piracy? let me know when, so i can be there. Ain't gonna happen. Why? technology is why. No...i'm not a pessimist, i'm a realist. My advice for right now. Is for the slep gang, and the cheesy KIA{A} to step back, do damage control, and regroup. They're not making any friends in the karaoke circle. This is about money, not stopping piracy..period.

[Musicman51]

Just when we thought we'd had are fill of karaoke crusaders out fighting the bad guys for truth, justice, and the american way. Low and behold a another kid on the block shows up to get in on the action. The KMPC, {Karaoke Music Producers Coalition}. Never heard of'em before.

I know chartbusters website was down half the day. And now i see up in the corner this tid bit of info. Yet they haven't shipped my February top country and pop hits cdg's yet.
Yet still no mention of the KIA{A} on this warning..lol hilarious
What is "Loading Up A Hard Drive Without Authorization"? i thought we've gone over all that before?
http://illegalkaraoke.com/ {Be sure to click the report link}

Now chartbuster {Big Mama Digital Productions} are claiming they are the source for "Legal" music....huh??? i thought Sound Choice was the source for legal music? Seems maybe the manu's are gonna get together and sell a "Pirate Series"...lol a little of this, and a little of that for $6,500.

And i just love how some of these kj's are using the KIA{A} as an advertising tool. hummmm..i wonder if a guy put the KIAA logo on the bottom of each page of his song notebook, and never said a word about not being a member, if he'd be pirating the pirate catchers? hehehe
yep..we're better because we show the KIA{A} logo..just ask us.
http://www.swingtimekaraoke.com/Save%20Karaoke.htm

[Lonman]

You do know that KIAA was formed by Sound Choice & Chartbuster & a couple others (PHM I think was another)? Sound Choice is just spearheading the lawsuits. Only a matter of time befor ethe others join in.
I got my CB monthly shipment for Feb in on the 1st of March.