Legal or illegal

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

Besides, if all the players are in the download market, who will want to fight it?

But all the players (assuming you mean the manus) have stated that when they go download, the downloads will not be legal to use for commercial purposes - ie karaoke in a bar.

[BooBoo]

Originally Posted by Lonman

But all the players (assuming you mean the manus) have stated that when they go download, the downloads will not be legal to use for commercial purposes - ie karaoke in a bar.

They all state that now on their CDs too, don't they? I think that's to cover them in case of "resale" (ie, included on 500,000 song drives).

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

They all state that now on their CDs too, don't they? I think that's to cover them in case of "resale" (ie, included on 500,000 song drives).

No they state on the cdg's that unauthorized public performance prohibited - if the club is paying ASCAP/BMI etc, then it is no longer unauthorized. Not sure about ascpa but bmi has karaoke option in their contract/application.

[RandyMcCharles]

I emailed Karaoke-Version asking about burning their downloads to CDG and singing from them in a karaoke bar. The short answer is that if the bar or KJ has an entertainment license it is legal. (The long answer is much longer as they provide music for more than just karaoke singers. Musicians are a large share of their market. There is also the question of the stance of individual jurisdictions since music licensing in general is in upheaval.) I did not ask about using their product as a karaoke host (since I am not a karaoke host) but I assume the answer is the same since the host or bar is paying enterainment fees. As a karaoke singer, singing from personally purchased karaoke msuic, I think I also have 'fair use' rules in my favor.

[ddouglass]

I believe you are right. I believe that Canada, the UK and Australia all require KJ to be licensed, where in the US it is the venues that have to have the licenses.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I emailed Karaoke-Version asking about burning their downloads to CDG and singing from them in a karaoke bar. The short answer is that if the bar or KJ has an entertainment license it is legal. (The long answer is much longer as they provide music for more than just karaoke singers.

Seems to me there are two issues here. Most clubs have paid their dues to ASCAP-BMI, etc., but the karaoke issue seems to be treated a little differently. Seems someone is seeing extra dollars to someone's pocket where karaoke is concerned. I don't see the bars and clubs playing live music getting the attention karaoke places are getting as far as legality of the music is concerned, only if its recorded, but most pro bands now use some tracks in their shows. This is never addressed.
I use karaoke tracks to do a one man show, which puts me under the eye of the karaoke police, but, what if i used my band to record tracks, made a cdg out of it, how would that be different from a live band playing the same song in the same venue. NOW i realize i have recorded the track, but am not selling the track, but using it to make money, in reality doing the same as a band. Or if i used my synthesizer to do all the backup and played it live as a band does.
As one can see, this is something that will take more than the KIAA, SoundChoice lawsuits, etc. is doing to clear up.
most of you just address the karaoke legality and i understand that, but, we are all in the same boat when it docks in court.
muzicman144

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

... but, what if i used my band to record tracks, made a cdg out of it, how would that be different from a live band playing the same song in the same venue...
muzicman144

The one big difference that causes most of the karaoke problems is that karaoke displays copyrighted lyrics to the public. Bands usually do not display the lyrics. Lyrics and music are 2 totally separate issues.

In the U.S, ANYONE can record a song and sell it as long as they pay the licensing fee to the person(s) that hold the rights to it, whether the rights holders like it or not. Thats why companies that make backing tracks can make anything you are willing to pay for.

Including written lyrics is a whole nuther story. If the rights holder to the lyrics won't give permission to record the lyrics (in written form) or display them in public, you are stuck. To make matters worse, if they give permission and then later change their mind, the cdg manufacturer has to stop making cdg's with those songs on them.

[muzicman144]

[quote=mindonstrike;96915]The one big difference that causes most of the karaoke problems is that karaoke displays copyrighted lyrics to the public. Bands usually do not display the lyrics. Lyrics and music are 2 totally separate issues.

This is exactly what i'm attempting to stress here. Now i don't offer lyrics to the public, even using a Chartbuster track, or using a homemade track made with my band and KHPro. I am a one man show, no one sees my lyrics or my teleprompter. Unless you get on stage with me, you don't know what i'm using. But that apparently doesn't excuse me like it does a live band, even when they use some tracks to back up their sound, and most road bands do that now.
muzicman144

[Robster]

ok sort of off topic but not.... in the uk we have different laws , there is a licence in place for music called the produb now any dj that has converted music to a format on a computer has to pay for a licence

1st tier ...for 1-5000 tracks its £250 thats UK pounds !

2nd tier....for 5001 - 10000 its £300

there are higher tiers but i will use these first two for examples there is a top up fee if you use karaoke tracks so for the first tier it goes up to £300 and the second tier it goes up by £60 to £360

and each year you pay a top up rate of £100 for music or £120 for karaoke for new tracks you may add up to a 1000 new tracks


That's all very fine and well but the licence people don't represent , or own , or manage the rights to any Karaoke track!

After emailing back and forth i got this answer

Hello Robert

Apologies for the delay in responding to your enquiry, which has only just been passed to me.

No CDG discs are currently registered with PPL and, as you state, this means that the pro-dub licence does not cover any copying or converting of these discs.

You are correct that you would need to contact the manufacturers in order to secure their permission. PPL is beginning the process of contacting the manufacturers ourselves with a view to registering the tracks, but for now permission is still required from the manufacturers directly.

Kind regards

Mark

MARK STEEL
Assistant Rights Negotiation Executive
PPL
1 Upper James Street, London W1F 9DE
T +44 (0)20 7534 1261 / F +44 (0)20 7534 1367
mark.steel@ppluk.com
www.ppluk.com

when a karaoke track is made its in the style of the original the karaoke manufacturers buy a licence to make this track what they then make is there property , they then own the rights the pll dont have any karaoke tracks as far as i am aware .

KJ's already pay over the top prices for specialist discs as it is , CDG discs are not inexpensive and individual tracks in MP3+G format are not inexpensive compared to music tracks either . But stangly enough if you buy the file in MP3+G format and no conversion has taken place you don't need a licence or if you buy a music track on line again you don't need a licence its just for the converting of discs you have already bought!!


now if i was selling something when i didn't own it and never did and was taking money ...giving people the impression that it gave them the right to do something that it doesnt ...that would be considered fraud wouldn't it? but hey im just an individual.

so they don't represent or own the rights for any karaoke track that i know about so i wonder where exactly does the £20-80 depending on the tier top up go?

The UK system is really messed up !

[RIKKI TIKKI]

Robster,

Just curious as to what the penalties/fines are for DJ's/KJ's that are not licensed, or are kinda illegal?