Legal or illegal

[billyo]

i do admit that i'm not 100% legal, but who is ? most of the time they don't bother small establishments, i know caused i used to play for one,( asian restaurant/bar ) they came around and measured the bldg. capacity and this place sits about 90 ppl, including the dining room, they told the owner that he should pay some kind of royalty, and that was the last time he heard from them, till i left a yr. ago.

[marklwood]

As a venue owner I can tell you that the KJ is of very little concern to the powers that be. When you decide to sue someone, you look for the deep pocket. How many KJs have one? But the venue owner, that is another story. They aren't going anywhere and usually have some assets worth enough to go after. I my personal, and very unscientific opinion, the only way a KJ would be in trouble is if he got caught up in litigation with the venue that wasn't paying their performance fees. If you are performing at any venue, at least be informed if they are paying their performance fees. You can then make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to play there. If you are 100% legal, you would never have a problem. If you are a pirate, I would think twice.

[RIKKI TIKKI]

Originally Posted by marklwood

As a venue owner I can tell you that the KJ is of very little concern to the powers that be. When you decide to sue someone, you look for the deep pocket. How many KJs have one? But the venue owner, that is another story. They aren't going anywhere and usually have some assets worth enough to go after. I my personal, and very unscientific opinion, the only way a KJ would be in trouble is if he got caught up in litigation with the venue that wasn't paying their performance fees. If you are performing at any venue, at least be informed if they are paying their performance fees. You can then make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to play there. If you are 100% legal, you would never have a problem. If you are a pirate, I would think twice.

Mark is correct! The only horror stories that you hear about involving BMI or ASCAP, etc. shutting down a venue/bar/club is for not paying the performance royalty fees, whether it be the live performances, the jukebox, or the elevator music. And the fees/penalties don't involve just a slap on the hand, if these "Royalty Police" wish to prosecute!

Be Safe, stay legal, sell it to your venue owner/manager that you are 100% legal and your gigs will be stable and longlasting when having to compete against the "Fly-By-Nights"! Arrg!

[muzicman144]

IMHO, the KIAA appears to have been organized by the producers of karaoke music whose main concern in to get KJs to inform on other KJs. sort of like the Brown shirts of Nazism or "big brother'. They have no other vested power authorized by anyone except to pursue this avenue of additional revenue protecting their own coffers by getting the KJs to report other KJs, and for many, this doesn't mean a ligitimate complaint. This is very dangerous territory for everyone. Not only can it result in prosecution of karaoke "pirates", but can become a mass of retaliation complaints by disgruntled employees, jealous KJs, and other KJ's wanting to get in on anothers turf. As was stated, you lose disc by accident, fire, or theft, and you are illegal, if you have no proof of purchase. How many of you kept your receipts or could pass the KIAA test as written????? Having a disc doesn't mean you purchase it legally, but is just accepted.
I see the KIAA as basically a vigilante group pursuing their own agenda (Look at their board) by encouraging the KJs to become KIAA informer. I don't see where they can accomplish anything for the KJ, but can see big benefits to themselves using informers.
SESAC is basically the same, but they do not pursue the military clubs beyond a letter asking them to pay, same with the fraternal orders. They will vigorously pursue the private club all the way to court and they pride themselves in never losing a case. I do not know of one single fraternal or military order that pays the fees and they are the biggest employer of musicians in this country. But I understand why they don't!!!
I cannot see any good coming out of this that will benefit me in anyway and i started using tracks when there were no words (graphics to the new breed of KJ).
muzicman144

[muzicman144]

RandyMcCharles, According to the KIAA, there are no "legal" download sites. Stictly using their guidelines, and not my opinion, any files downloaded on the so called "custom cdg" websites are illegal. Those "private" stored files you have, by KIAA guidlines, are illegal, as anyone could label every file "private" and make the same claim.
Having said this doesn't mean i agree, when, in fact, i disagree with the KIAA on most stances. To encourage one to inform on another for their own gain is wrong. That is what they are doing.
I would like to add a funny observation (to me), when i first heard about karaoke i was doing shows (not karaoke)with "tracks", no words. I googled karaoke on the web and one result showed up, "A japanese flower that......., i forget the rest. No sale sites, no song ads, nothing pertaining to karaoke music. This tells you i have done this a long time and there is no way i could be 100% legal after all this time nor have i kept my receipts.
Seems such a shame one will have to "make friends" and not "rock the boat" or someone will tell on them.
muzicman144

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

RandyMcCharles, According to the KIAA, there are no "legal" download sites. Stictly using their guidelines, and not my opinion, any files downloaded on the so called "custom cdg" websites are illegal.

Just got an email today that Chartbuster will be beta testing their digital download in about a month. Then will open it to everyone after testing. This would be a site that would be legal as they will only have their songs. Sound Choice has been saying for months that they were too, but that got split to a separate company name for theirs. Both are founding members of KIAA so I don't think they are a rogue organization.

[RandyMcCharles]

That sounds like exactly the wrong way to pursue the problem.
1. The club often has no idea where the Kj gets their music or how legit it is.
2. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Kj may have bought music in good faith, when it was not legit.

To me the problem appears to be KJs who buy illegitate music that is obviously illegitimate, knowing full well it is ilegitimate. So the solution is:
First: a legal body must recognize and prosecute such activity.
Second: anyone, orgainized or not, must report such activity to the legal body.

What KIAA apears to being doing is unsanctioned vigilatism, which is never a good thing.

To me the best approach is to encourage singers to boycott criminal KJs. Until the problem becomes big enough to attract the criminal justice system there is not much more we can do. I, as a singer, do not support bars or Kjs who are obviously abusing the industry.

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

That sounds like exactly the wrong way to pursue the problem.
1. The club often has no idea where the Kj gets their music or how legit it is.

Business owners have a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to make sure their employees,customers and vendors are acting in a legal manner, especially once they become aware of it. No diferent than if the business was turning a blind eye to drug dealing and prostitution.

2. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Kj may have bought music in good faith, when it was not legit.

If you buy a stolen car from a licensed dealer it doesn't make the car any less stolen and subject to confiscation. Your only recourse would then be to sue the dealer

To me the problem appears to be KJs who buy illegitate music that is obviously illegitimate, knowing full well it is ilegitimate. So the solution is:
First: a legal body must recognize and prosecute such activity.
Second: anyone, orgainized or not, must report such activity to the legal body.

Agreed.

What KIAA apears to being doing is unsanctioned vigilatism, which is never a good thing.

The KIAA is just another trade organization created to educate the public and protect the intellectual property rights of it's members.

To me the best approach is to encourage singers to boycott criminal KJs. Until the problem becomes big enough to attract the criminal justice system there is not much more we can do. I, as a singer, do not support bars or Kjs who are obviously abusing the industry.

. Most singers in my neck of the woods don't care anything about piracy. Half of 'em ask me why I don't download from the sharing sites.It's not their ox being gored (although if they would analyze the situation they would see it is their ox). I boycott them just to make a moral statement but I have no illusions that they miss my business at all.
Karaoke piracy is such a tiny drop in the bucket relative to the economy I doubt (US) government will ever take any meaningfull action. Music and film piracy is a much bigger problem and you can see the government is doing very little about it. What little is done is being done by the RIAA (another trade organization.)
The two political parties are so busy fighting for power and trying to buy votes by outspending the other it's unlikely that underfunded law enforcement agencies will ever give us a second look.

Sam

[RandyMcCharles]

Yes, apathy is a problem even outside of Canada. I hang with singers who won't support criminals, but I fear we are the minority.

The problem with crime is that it grows to the point where it breaks the market. At one time Canada had 5 karaoke manufacturers. But license fees grew, obstensibly to offset shrinking revenue due to piracy, to the point where one after another could no longer stay in business. Canadian made CDGs sold (and what is left on the shelves) sell for 2-3 times as much as imports. And as been said, how can a Kj who spends thousands of dollars buying current music compete with a Kj who spends next to nothing. At some point (hopefully far in the future) the legitimate Kjs have to throw in the towel leaving only thieves and rouges in business, at which point manufacturers have to shut down because most of their product is stolen instead of paid for.

So I understand where KIAA is coming from and I appreciate the information on their web site. What I don't see is how their method of enforcement is working. I did eventually find on their site map links to who their members are, but the site stopped feeding pages before I could take a look. I would like to see them go after the big fish and give the little fish a pass. The mostly legitimate Kjs already have a tough enough time without having to do due dilligence on every single track in their book (though I suppose KIAA will vet their book when they join) whereas nipping this $300 loaded HD in the bud can be a great deterent to the spread of blatent piracy.

[muzicman144]

Mindonstrike (Quote) The KIAA is just another trade organization created to educate the public and protect the intellectual property rights of it's members..

Sam, i don't believe the KIAA is just another trade organization created to edcucate anyone. Their main philosophy appears to say if you join, we will certify you as a legit KJ and being a member, we won't hassle you. How? And by what process is one to be certified? Will carrying a KIAA card and presenting it to a prospective client enhance your employment chances? It was organized by the producers of karaoke tracks who are asking their members to be the organizations informers. Since most KJs in this forum are admittedly not 100%, It would seem membership will be severly limited if all are completely honest about it. How many would lie about legitamacy to join???
Your comment about turning the blind eye to drug dealing and prostitution is exactly what our current law enforcement does to create informers. No difference here, IMHO.
Also, I have never needed anyone to protect my intellectual rights, and hope i never do
Just an opinion
muzicman144

[ddouglass]

The KIAA actually does not pursue the pirates. They turn the information over to the production companies to pursue it. I am not a member just to clarify, but I do see some use for them. If you are a KJ or a venue and you "join" their membership then you are certified as being legal, will not be hassled by them (or sued), and will be listed for venue's to pick from to make sure they stay legal. Venues can also join and have the same kind of protection.
As far as reporting pirates I am sure that some problems with vendictive KJs will happen, but for the most part if the report proves true then they have to get legal or lose everything. With a fine of up to $150,000 per song it would be smart to be legal and a whole lot less costly. If it is false then you are in the clear.
I haven't joined as yet but I am considering it.

Randy, Sweet Georgia Brown is out of business as well as Priddis and several others and it usually was because of not paying for the rights to ASCAP or BMI or SESAC.

[RandyMcCharles]

I just went to the KIAA web site and looked around. At first glance I don't see a problem. Information is always good. From what I read in the posts here I go the sense that they weren't after big fish, but after any fish, including those who don't even know they are are fish. So I get the sense that they don't believe that individual KJs can regulate themselves. These guys set the rules and anyone who thinks different is wrong. To me that is a police state and I don't like it. If they really wanted to accomplish something they should focus on obvious offenders, such as Kjs buying 50,000 song hard drives for $300 and not worry about the KJ who has a couple of questionable disks, as that is where the real problem is.

I am surprised to hear that 'any music download' is illegal. My uderstanding is that the activity is still being debated. If a manufacturer agrees to allow a vendor to sell music via download, and the buyer pays royalities, licensing, etc. that get passed on to the appropriate parties, I don't see how a body like KIAA can claim it is illegal. One of the largest outlets in the UK produces its own music and sell it along with several other manufacturers products as orginal produced discs, custom disks, or downloads, and licensing looks very legit. If it is indeed not legit, yet elephants in the industry operate this way, then the whole industry is in a lot of trouble.

[ddouglass]

Randy keep in mind that KIAA is only a US organization and does not effect the UK. I think they will have to amend their statement soon especially since Chartbust is getting ready for downloading.

[RandyMcCharles]

I continue to poke around the KIAA website and what I cannot find is a list of their members. This absense prevents me from knowing how legitimate they are! I am also wondering how I am supposed to know if the Kj at the local pub has been certified by them as legitimate. Is there a sign in the window? If so, how do I know if that the sign is not a fake. It would be a real hoot to nark on a Kj only to discover that at one time the Kj was certified by them but now has a bootleg song.

Anyway, I am impressed by the general information on the site, but can find little evidence there that they are actively persecuting Kjs or clubs.

All this said, I live in Canada and what I know about legalities here is that professional Kjs with hard drives need to be audited annually and prove they have the disks that have been copied to their hard drives. If they fail the audit they lose their license. That said, I have no idea what the auditors consider to be a legitimate manufactured disk.

[muzicman144]

Dale, I did see where both Chartbuster and Sound Choice are starting the custom download. I also see that Doowoop.com, where i buy all my disc, offer a custom cd called Proburn. Don't know the legality, but they are burning different manufacturers tracks on to one cd at a per song price, claiming they have an agreement with these companies to do so. I wondered why they could and CB and SC wasn't, and they have been doing it for quite a while. They are the cheapest i have found and charge no shipping.
There is no way either CB or SC would be rogue organizations, but, as founding members of KIAA, along with Stellar Records, and apparently one "in house" Kj on their board, I believe this is the wrong approach to the karaoke problem. As you stated, to join makes a KJ certified as legit and will not be hassled by KIAA. How do they certify you and what keeps the "pirate" from joing and being guaranteed not to be hassled. As most of us stated, we are not 100% legal, how, for instance, would you get certified???? I could always "clean up" a computer, install 3000 legal songs and be free from worry if we use that avenue, just as the "pirate" could do. Makes No sense.
muzicman144

[BooBoo]

As long as they approve of some of the songs I have purchased from sites that advertise they are licensed. All I could do at that point would be to point them to the companies legal statements. I also have had two customers that purchased legal Cd's on their own and only visit my show. They wanted them in my list and the only way I would do it is to own the CD and they gave them to me. In most cases I go out and buy the Cd's but these two insisted..

The people with those 75,000 song drives are taking over. I have visited several shows of late and all of them have it. While the first priority is to get the ppl selling the drives, getting these ppl using them should be right behind.

I've got no problem with the guy that is "95%" legal and I doubt the disk makers would either. Legal up the 5% and have a nice day. The 100% illegal ppl need to suffer serious fines and that goes for the bars that hire them.

[RandyMcCharles]

I am 100% legal. I have purchased about 600 CDGs and that is all that is on my HD. I also have 3 custom CDGs that a friend bought on the HD so that she does not have to bring them to house parties, but those songs are flagged as hidden in the song book and marked in the title field as 'private' so that I can ignore them on search results. They only exist on her Singers list. I have purchased about 20 custom CDGs from vendors who prove they are properly licenses. Even though 1 or 2 of these vendors have a pay & download option I have always gone the 'ship me a CDG' route so that I have physical proof of purchase. I am not nor ever have been a business. I have purchased everything as a hobby and do home shows with friends and the occasional charity show. At some point I will probably start doing paid shows and when I do I will be legal.

On another note, what about the issue of manufacturers and vendors who claim they are legit and fully licensed when in truth their practices may have been less than 100%. eg. I have 'heard' that Sweet Georgia Brown has questionable tracks. I have also 'heard' that the even Sound Choice has issues, an example being their U2 CDG that was pulled a few years back. I have no details on any of this as anything beyond rumor does not seem readily available. So while I have bought CGDs in good faith, it could be that some of the manufacturers and resellers have have created and sold me the goods in bad faith.