rate of pay around the country.

[horseshoe]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

I think the top DJ's and top KJ's can provide the same quality of entertainment but they are at the top of the pyrimid. In general the public expects DJ's to entertain at a much higher level and quality compared to KJ's. A professional DJ makes much more money and would not switch over to be a full time KJ. This is just my unbiased opinion as I'm am not a DJ. I am musician and professional singer.

Boy do we all get weary of hearing, "I'm a professional singer". If one in five 'professional singers' can sing the karaoke version, I'm surprised. Almost every night I have at least one 'professional singer' who also is 'in a band', so they are so snobbish they don't like any version of a song. Invariably, they will say, "it's too fast', or "too slow". "That's not the way my band plays it, so it must be wrong".

The people come to my shows to sing, not listen to records. They can do that at home. Most of them don't even like live bands, since they can't participate.

Lord save me from the so-called "professional singers and musicians" of the world.

[alanross]

horseshoe,
I agree with you. Most of the people who claim to be in a band are not nearly as good as the people who come out regularly to sing. I've only seen three people over the years that were truly "professional" vocalists and they were wonderful. No attitude, happy to be able to sing, were adept and professional enough to sing with unfamiliar arrangements. They were great and two of them come back at least once or twice a year to look us up.

The conversation about "professionals" in this context is more about the show hosts and their ability to put on a professional looking show, rather than their ability to sing. I apologize if I led the conversation away from that. The ascertion is that even in a depressed economic area, hosts have the potential to make better money if their shows are produced in a more professional manner.

Whether we need a new thread to discuss the manner in which we increase our rate of pay, I will leave to better brains than mine. I thought it was relevant, but perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate.

[bryant]

Alan, first of all, I was delighted by your analysis, regardless of length, and your explanations of what you do different that seems to make your shows different.

I have been doing many of those very things you suggest, which does amount to more than just "John, good job, Jane, you're up next." In fact I got a chance to visit another show last month, and I could've sworn the host must have said that, and only that, about 45 times.

I tend to use that short time between singers to interact with the crowd, either by praise (but not the same ole "good job, Pete"), or something special about how that person did something, or anything else that is complimentary, or sometimes joke with the crowd in general. When not adding in too much, I play background fanfare for the next singer as well. I always mention other shows in town, and encourage ppl to visit them and to let me know if there is something that I can do to improve mine. That gives them some form of ownership, they can associate with, and they usually end up saying '"Nothing you can do, you are the best".

Many usually leave and say, "Wow, this is not the typical karaoke show we usually get around here, and I've been to all of them."

Alan, again, thank you for your advice on professionalism, it was read twice, if not three times.

[SteveWalker]

Thanks for reminding me that this is thread about how much a KJ gets paid so we did get off track defining what a KJ, DJ and MC is.

So back to the topic of this thread please!
In Clearwater I know that KJ's made $250 for a four hour show in 1988 and today KJ's average $125 for a four 4 hour show. The average KJ could make much more money if they were more professional.

[bryant]

But then again, those who are not, accept the fact, lower the rate, get gigs, and then the avreage rate is lowered,
sort of supply and demand, especially if the bar owner is not concerned about a certain level of professionalism, just the amount of dollars that go over the counter.

In a "regulated" profession (notice I changed my choice of wording here), this would be against the law. But by nature, the kj/dj "profession", is not regulated in any manner, thereby exposing the "profession" to legal quacks.

[alanross]

Originally Posted by bryant

Alan, again, thank you for your advice on professionalism, it was read twice, if not three times.

I'm happy to share whatever I can with anybody who cares, if it helps increase the validity of Karaoke as a valuable commodity for bar owners.

As always, the devil is in the details - it's those little touches that will always set you apart from the rest of the crowd.

[bryant]

Okay, here in Central Maine, from what I've seen as in most of all Maine, DJ's, KJ's, VJ's that do bars seem to get somewhere between 100 and 200 dollars, even on weekend nights. This does not include the pay for those occasional "special" event things like birthday parties, weddings, functions, etc., just repeat weekly bar work.

I like to think that my minimun wage is 150 dollars, weekday or not. I started at 100 on a Sunday night a year ago at this place to get him started (new bar in town, where there is already too many) when I told him my goal was to work towards my minimum of 150.
Three months later we spoke and he wanted to be incremental about it and gave me 125. Then the summer came and I told him I couldnt work weekday nights anymore when the next school season begins, as I am a teacher, and he said I could pack up at 12:30, leave my stuff on stage and worry about it the next day. I live less than a mile away. All I have to do the next day is tear down and put stuff offstage as my equip. stays in the building. Then I asked if I was worth the 150 I originally spoke about. He said yes. So I figured that was a decent gig and could still get up in the morning and go to school to teach w/o killin' myself.

Now the question?
He recently offered me Monday and Tuesday too. He said that Monday would only be a DJ night for a few hours while a small crowd is there. How busy can a Monday night get in Maine, right. He also said, while you're here feel free to help your self to a few drinks or eats (also a restaurant).

How much do you think I should accept (total amount)for that guaranteed three night gig (max = 4 hrs a night and 2 on Monday), get home at 12:30 leave my stuff on stage all nights and simply move off stage to side on Wed. afternoon?

I'll tell you the last conversation we had after I hear from some of you. Please advise, however.

[kilith]

Originally Posted by bryant

Okay, here in Central Maine, from what I've seen as in most of all Maine, DJ's, KJ's, VJ's that do bars seem to get somewhere between 100 and 200 dollars, even on weekend nights. This does not include the pay for those occasional "special" event things like birthday parties, weddings, functions, etc., just repeat weekly bar work.

I like to think that my minimun wage is 150 dollars, weekday or not. I started at 100 on a Sunday night a year ago at this place to get him started (new bar in town, where there is already too many) when I told him my goal was to work towards my minimum of 150.
Three months later we spoke and he wanted to be incremental about it and gave me 125. Then the summer came and I told him I couldnt work weekday nights anymore when the next school season begins, as I am a teacher, and he said I could pack up at 12:30, leave my stuff on stage and worry about it the next day. I live less than a mile away. All I have to do the next day is tear down and put stuff offstage as my equip. stays in the building. Then I asked if I was worth the 150 I originally spoke about. He said yes. So I figured that was a decent gig and could still get up in the morning and go to school to teach w/o killin' myself.

Now the question?
He recently offered me Monday and Tuesday too. He said that Monday would only be a DJ night for a few hours while a small crowd is there. How busy can a Monday night get in Maine, right. He also said, while you're here feel free to help your self to a few drinks or eats (also a restaurant).

How much do you think I should accept (total amount)for that guaranteed three night gig (max = 4 hrs a night and 2 on Monday), get home at 12:30 leave my stuff on stage all nights and simply move off stage to side on Wed. afternoon?

I'll tell you the last conversation we had after I hear from some of you. Please advise, however.

I guess if you want to quote him on a price it would depend on how busy the bar is during the days you are working there. If you are brining in a very nice croud then really you should get a decent profit. If it is only 10 people in the bar then yeah 100 to 150 a night is a good price. However if it is 30+ people in the bar on them nights take 30 people * $2.00 a beer (it is like 3 to 4 here so I am giving a very decent low price on beer) and that is $60. If you then play 4 hours that is $240.00 but we all know people drink more then 1 beer an hour. So throw in 2 beers an hour and that is $480.00 and yes that is a very big profit for a small bar.

So if you get $150 a night and he wants to add 2 more nights I would maybe go with $375? That would be like 125 a night and you also have your foot in the door pretty well it seems and you are giving him a small deal for having you there more then 1 night a week. I used to do a 3 night a week Thursday, Friday, Saturday and charged $200, $250 and $250 but cut $100.00 off because of being there 3 nights so i was making $600 for a Thursday, Friday, Saturday night. If you want to stick to your 150 a night which is $450.00 and take off $75 I think he should take it. If you make it sound like they are getting a deal and $75.00 is a lot of money to a bar they are more likely to say oh I am saving money so why not. Even if it is $325 - $350.00 for all three nights I think you would still make out pretty decent and it is a for sure job.

I do mine by hour. I charge $70.00/hr and if they go 5 hours I drop off $50 and charge $300.00 if they do 2 nights I drop off another $100.00 and charge $500.00. I then also get free drinks on top of that. Even though I mainly drink Mountain Dew lol. A beer here or there but not often.

[alanross]

bryant,
kilith asked the right question... how much money is the bar making on the nights you're there? If you're bringing people into the place, you deserve to get your best rate.

If the owner asked you for the extra nights at a discount, then you should consider how much to discount. If he just asked for the two extra nights - why on earth would you be the one to suggest a discount? Guilt? Fear? Embarassment? Get over that real quick.

If you have to negotiate, always begin negotiations with more than you expect to get. You may be surprized how much more they're willing to pay.

Think of it this way, If you got a booking for another place in town on a Monday night, you would be making $150.00 for the other place. So don't start your negotiations at any less than $150.00/night.

If the owner balks at that price, Hmm and Haw for a minute, scribble some nonsence on a piece of paper and then tell him you could probably do the extra two nights for $140/night, but Sunday would have to remain at $150. I know the temptation is to reduce your rate in $25 increments, but who made that rule? That's just silly. Any reduction in price will seem like a deal to the owner. Whether he's saving $10.00 or $50.00 is only important if a number has already been presented. In other words, if you've already discussed a $50 discount and then you come back and tell him you can give him a $10 discount, he's not gonna be happy with that. But if you've not discussed any discount, not even a range within which you might be willing to work, then even a $10 discount is giving the owner something for nothing.

As far as the perks of playing at his place:
How much are you really eating or drinking before or during the shows? I find that most bar owners offer this, but few KJs take real advantage of it. It's likely that this little benefit doesn't really pay you anything.
The fact that you can leave your stuff there was part of the original deal when you made $150.00, so why charge less for the same benefit on two other nights?
You got to leave early when you were charging $150. Again, he had accepted that term, so begin negotiations at the same level.
Don't capitulate before the process even starts.

Most negotiations are lost before they begin, because one of the players has already decided what their low number will be and starts the bidding right there. If you hit 'em with a high number, it may shock them, but they aren't going to throw you out of the office before you have time to barter down. Even if you have to shout, "Okay, I'll do it for less! Name your price!" as the bouncers are dragging you out the door by either arm, you will have time to amend your opening bid. Don't be afraid to shoot high.

But don't shoot too high. This will make you look like a fool who doesn't know what he's doing and again you will lose the negotiation. Your opening bid should be a number that you can justify. Like starting your bid at $150/night and saying, "That's my regular rate. If I'm playing here on Mondays for less than $150 and I get a booking for Mondays elsewhere and they're willing to pay the $150, I'd be losing money every night I stayed here."

As a bar owner, I'd probably still offer my low amount, but I'd add that if you got another booking for a monday night at another place, I'd be willing to cover the difference - at that time.

The point is, ask for more than you'd expect and see how much you can walk out the door with. This is a business. Business is all about profit.

[kingjames]

the amounts i've charged has always been directly proportional to the circumstances, (1)is this gig a good and long lasting one.
(2)am i comped on food and drink
(3)does it pay the same year round
(4) and do i have to break down and haul or leave my equip.
1 yr was the shortest time frame i played at a bar. 8 yrs 3.5yrs, 1yr, and 1 at the current, and looks like it will be for many more. 2 night a week @200.00 a night. more if holidays like halloween new yrs ect. If a band can get 500.00 a night and only know 25-30 songs and I have 14,000Hmmm.

[jleekaraoke]

I Totally Agree With You, I Have Tons Of Gigs That I Have Had For Years...i've Raised My Rates Somewhat, But Not Too Much, Usually When The Bar Has A Good Night I Get An Extra Bonus So They Are Very Good To Me....... I'm Starting To Have Problems With Bmi...the Bars Can't Even Advertise Because Bmi,, Finds Out, Then Contacts The Bar For Money...it Sucks... 2 Months Ago I Went Totally Computerized With Over 70,000 Tunes And A Huge Dj Library........(less Is Best When It Comes To Setting Up) Anyways.. That Is The Problem I'm Having Now Is With Bmi... Everything Else Is Cool