rate of pay around the country.

[kilith]

I also run my shows like Alan does. Only difference I have is if a new singer comes up I just add them right into the end of the current rotation. It works pretty well and some singers are exceited to get up right away.

I am from Minnesota orginally. Now live in Iowa. One of my best bookings is in Wisconsin where I make from $300-$600 depending on if it is a holiday or not. Yes they have local KJ's... but I have seen their shows and there is much to be desired from them to be nice. Not to mention but there seem to be a ton of fights that go on when the local KJ's play. So I get asked to drive 241 miles one way just to do a show in a VERY small town of only 200 or so and make $300+. The best night in Wisconsin is New Years Eve... The bars do not close!! So that means I can make up to $600 in one night. (stupid Packers played this last NYE and I had to start 2 hours late kind of sucked lol) but still made $500 on the night so not a total loss.

Weddings are becoming very big in karaoke now days... Already been booked for 4 or 5 weddings for this year already. (this is with DJ services as well) It is very nice as of being a KJ before I added on DJ so I can blow any regular DJ out of the water in song selection. Wold you believe that on top of most DJ who charge from 700-800 for 4 hours they have karaoke add on for $375 on top of their $700-800!!! That is very insane and this is after looking at the DJ's 500-1000 song selection book. Pretty sad how much they rip off the public lol. I am sorry I have been DJing for about 5 or 6 years now and been a KJ for around 10... DJing is 100 times easier then being a KJ... DJ there is very little to do but keep the crowd in it where KJ... you gotta GET the crowd into it in the first place set up more equipment (cause I do use full lighting in my karaoke shows just like I do for DJ or DJ/KJ shows gives a more spiced up mood) but incluse the TV and cables mics other tvs in the bars and then slips, books, rotations, fairness to every singer.... I am sorry but a KJ's job is 10 times harder and a DJ does not get crowd interaction as much as karaoke does... karaoke means the crowd is the show. However it is the people going out and buying CAVS and illegal hard drives off ebay and craig's list that can charge $100 a night and make it off it because they didnt spend anything in the first place to start like all us OLD CDG people.

Lol anyways that was long winded

[SteveWalker]

I think the top DJ's and top KJ's can provide the same quality of entertainment but they are at the top of the pyrimid. In general the public expects DJ's to entertain at a much higher level and quality compared to KJ's. A professional DJ makes much more money and would not switch over to be a full time KJ. This is just my unbiased opinion as I'm am not a DJ. I am musician and professional singer.

[kilith]

Yes that is right. The public thinks there is more to being a DJ then a KJ. However it is the other way around. a KJ puts a lot more time into their business. Making books is a long and tiresom project and are changed almost weekly if not monthly. Most DJ's do not even have books it is go up ask and pray they have the music you want.

A DJ plays music to get people up and dance... I have had nights where I sang for the first 2 hours out of 5 hours before people were brave enough to come up and sing but once you get them up there then they do not want to stop but that is what you have to do to keep your show going... I have never seen a DJ come out from behind his computer or CD tray to get a group dancing by dancing by him/herself out on a floor.

That is the problem out in the world is everyone knows how much a DJ is paid and that it is anywhere from $600-$1500 a night and bars are happy to pay that price but they are not happy to pay a KJ $200.00. Yes I know that a lot of troll KJ's have taken down the respectability of the karaoke industry. Once of my friends who used to even be my baby-sitter lol is now starting up her own karaoke system and I am sorry she is a horrible KJ when it comes to running a system. As a MC she is great! but she does not know how to adjust her music and vocals which is what makes a quality show. For me it would be rude to go up and tell her how to run her system even if it was to help her quality. I do have 9 years experience on her but I just do not know how she would take constructive critisizm from me knowing I am a KJ.... Any comments on how I could maybe go about helping her out? She does give a good show but she could give a heck of a lot better show.

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by kilith

Yes that is right. The public thinks there is more to being a DJ then a KJ................As a MC she is great! but she does not know how to adjust her music and vocals which is what makes a quality show.

The professional DJ can MC and motivate the crowd in a way only a KJ (except a very very few) could dream of doing. The professional DJ does more to learn the skill of being an MC and motivating a crowd. The KJ concentrates on motivating singers and adjusting their vocals. Actually, we are talking apples and oranges in making this comparison. I think the DJ profession would be a great leaning ground for KJ's because this is where the real people skills are learned and used.

[kilith]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

The professional DJ can MC and motivate the crowd in a way only a KJ (except a very very few) could dream of doing. The professional DJ does more to learn the skill of being an MC and motivating a crowd. The KJ concentrates on motivating singers and adjusting their vocals. Actually, we are talking apples and oranges in making this comparison. I think the DJ profession would be a great leaning ground for KJ's because this is where the real people skills are learned and used.

I starting as a KJ think it is the other way around. There is no way I would of ever became a DJ if it was not for being a KJ first. KJ/DJ does not have much of a difference... DJ/KJ and MC is a HUGE difference. Most DJ websites do not even offer MC services and the ones that DO, charge more to MC a wedding reception.
Really the only difference I can see comparing the two is DJ has more control over the show then the KJ does.
However both a KJ or a DJ can be an MC. MC is a whole different trade all together from both KJ and DJ.

masters of ceremonies

1. A person who acts as host at a formal event, making the welcoming speech and introducing other speakers.
2. A performer who conducts a program of varied entertainment by introducing other performers to the audience.

In a way a KJ is an MC all the time, a DJ is an MC only if the wedding couple wants them to do introductions or to even have them call out the dances or other events in the night. I have had the bride and groom do it at their weddings. So that took my MC jobs over and I did not have to do it. That is how they wanted to do their reception and they are paying me so I do what they want.

disc jockey
nouna person who announces and plays popular recorded music

Karaoke jockey or KJ

The KJ is a specialized disc jockey who plays and manages the music for a venue. The role of the KJ often includes announcing song titles and whose turn it is to sing.

So by definition a KJ is a form of DJ and neither a KJ nor DJ is an MC but both could do MC duties. Both KJ and DJ MUST be good with people and be people persons. Now what you are saying (and you must have met some horrible KJ's) is that what you have seen does not compare to a professional KJ/DJ. You I would say have seen KJ's that are in it for the money and do not care how well the people sound or the apperance of their system and must not run it professionally if you do not consider them to be professional. (I have seen these type of KJ's and I call them the trolls and they give a very bad reputation to professional KJ's)

I would consider myself a very professional KJ and/or DJ but the only difference in my shows is how they are run. karaoke I do karaoke and DJ I play music. That is the only difference between the two. (oh and one I wear a tux and the other I wear jeans and a nice button down shirt) I live in both worlds and even both at the same time.

However I see that this is a bit off topic now but maybe could make for a very good topic of its own to see what people think other then us lol?

[alanross]

I had the benefit of being a mobile DJ before mobile DJs were the accepted norm at weddings and formal affairs. Back in the late 1970s, bands still dominated the wedding circuit. I lived in Northwestern Vermont at the time and there were only three professional DJ systems in existence in the state and ours was one of them. I've seen the industry change and I've seen what it takes to be a good DJ. But let's define what kind of DJ we're discussing.

Club jocks are different than Rap DJs, but they're closer cousins than other types of DJs. In a club, the focus is on mixing, scratching and maintaining a beat that keeps the crowd moving. Rap jocks are proficient in mixing, overdubbing and scratching to enhance the song. Both are different from radio DJs whose whole focus is to project their personality over the airwaves. Radio DJs are different than mobile DJs because they don't have that immediate, live feedback from an audience for whom they must adjust their playlist. But radio jocks make a better fit into the mobile world because they're used to filling in dead air with banter.

I mention this because it goes to the reason why bar owners consider DJs more valuable than KJs. First you have to understand the fact that perception is reality to the vast majority of people. It rarely matters what the facts are, if people perceive things to be a certain way, it is very hard to convince them otherwise.

There is a perception that DJs are more highly skilled and have a semi-celebrity status, partially because of the radio DJs and partially because of the wedding circuit. Radio DJs have an on-air presence that gives them that sort-of celebrity status. Who hasn't tugged on the sleeve of a friend and said, "Hey that's so-and-so from WXYZ radio!" when they've seen a radio DJ in person. This increases their value to a bar owner. The other perception is that of the wedding DJ. Wedding DJs pull in good money for each gig. The perception is then that they are worth that much, even in a smaller, weekly venue. So when a bar owner hires a DJ for $400 for the night, he feels like he's getting a deal.

We all know that the general perception of Karaoke is that it is third rate entertainment. Any time you make people who are not professionals the center of the show, you will foster a perception that your show isn't professional. It takes a great deal of work to change that image, but it can be done. We've done it here at our shows. But it takes a lot of work and most KJs simply don't care. They're making their money and they're done. So Karaoke across the globe is not considered to be a professional form of entertainment.

Again, this is the perception. We as professional KJs, struggling to make our shows real entertainment venues, know that reality is a far cry from the perception.

kilith is spot-on when he talks about DJs not necessarily being MCs and that KJs do way more work than DJs. I've been doing DJ/KJ/MC work since the late 70s and I can personally attest to the fact that KJ work is the most difficult and requires the most dedication, commitment and perseverance. If you're running your shows right, you don't stop moving, listening, adjusting, monitoring, loading, announcing, bantering, schmoozing or watching from the time you start 'til the time you end. There are no breaks. It's four straight hours of constant action and being in what I like to call "Go-Mode".

When I do a wedding now, it feels like I'm cheating. I do 1/8 of the work and get paid 3 times as much - at a minimum. So, just to make myself feel better, I sing half the songs to which people are dancing. It makes me feel like I'm earning my money and 1/2 the people don't even notice, so they keep right on dancing. The half that does notice, usually ask for my business card and visit my tip jar. The point is, DJ work is so boring compared to KJ work, I charge astonomical rates to dissuade people from hiring me. Last year I increased my DJ rates to $300/hr for me personally and $200/hr for any of my guys. That wasn't good enough to stop 'em, so I began charging $400/hr for me personally and I already have 6 gigs lined up this year. It's ridiculous!

The bottom line is, if KJs could change the public perception of Karaoke, then we could earn the same rates that DJs make across the board. Unfortunately, because of the cut-rate Karaoke that's probably always going to be available, and the easy access to it in bars and nightclubs, I don't see the situation changing.

If fact, what I've seen is a shift from people having their wedding receptions in a reception hall, to wedding couples scheduling their wedding receptions at the nightclubs in which we play so they get free entertainment. Granted, they're bringing their private function into a public forum, but the bar owners love it because it's that much more revenue and the wedding party doesn't care, because, as you know, when any large group comes into the shows, they pretty much take over the room anyway.

I get very cross when this happens and I usually make sure the wedding people understand that they will get no special treatment. They are at the mercy of the rotation regardless of how many of them there are. I make it clear that if they want special treatment, they should have paid me to do a private party for them. As such, I make them understand that their wedding is now over and they are at my show, not their reception. The bar customers are every bit as important and will be given as much respect as the bride and groom.

Invariably, someone from the wedding party try to make it all about the wedding couple, but I just don't play that game. They might get upset a the moment, but upon reflection, most people realize that they are really trying to get something for nothing and that dog don't hunt with me.

The biproduct of this is that the "regulars" appreciate us that much more.

Anyway, I'm getting long winded again. Sorry.

- Alan Ross

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by kilith

The KJ is a specialized disc jockey who plays and manages the music for a venue. The role of the KJ often includes announcing song titles and whose turn it is to sing.

I agree that a KJ is a specialized DJ. To me specialized means the KJ is not a fully trained professional DJ. I'm very sure you are exceptional in your role as both a KJ and DJ but unfortunately these types are few and far between.

However, we can agree to disagree at this point!

[muzicman144]

With all due respects to any and all dj or kj. At what point does one become a "fully trained professionial dj/kj", and who decides it. One could do dj/kj work full time for ten years and not be considered one of the "best" or "professional". Another can start and immediately have abilty to be considered one of the best or most professional. I beleive it is the intangible that can't really be described that draws the largest crowds and makes the kj or dj draw top money. Its the ability to say/do the right things at the right time that separates the "best or professional" from the rest. This can't be taught or "trained". It also sets the rate of pay.
Again, just my opinion

muzicman144

[kilith]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

I agree that a KJ is a specialized DJ. To me specialized means the KJ is not a fully trained professional DJ. I'm very sure you are exceptional in your role as both a KJ and DJ but unfortunately these types are few and far between.

However, we can agree to disagree at this point!

Hey I am going to change this to a new thread peeps... it is too far away from the orginal topic.

[horseshoe]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

I think the top DJ's and top KJ's can provide the same quality of entertainment but they are at the top of the pyrimid. In general the public expects DJ's to entertain at a much higher level and quality compared to KJ's. A professional DJ makes much more money and would not switch over to be a full time KJ. This is just my unbiased opinion as I'm am not a DJ. I am musician and professional singer.

Boy do we all get weary of hearing, "I'm a professional singer". If one in five 'professional singers' can sing the karaoke version, I'm surprised. Almost every night I have at least one 'professional singer' who also is 'in a band', so they are so snobbish they don't like any version of a song. Invariably, they will say, "it's too fast', or "too slow". "That's not the way my band plays it, so it must be wrong".

The people come to my shows to sing, not listen to records. They can do that at home. Most of them don't even like live bands, since they can't participate.

Lord save me from the so-called "professional singers and musicians" of the world.

[alanross]

horseshoe,
I agree with you. Most of the people who claim to be in a band are not nearly as good as the people who come out regularly to sing. I've only seen three people over the years that were truly "professional" vocalists and they were wonderful. No attitude, happy to be able to sing, were adept and professional enough to sing with unfamiliar arrangements. They were great and two of them come back at least once or twice a year to look us up.

The conversation about "professionals" in this context is more about the show hosts and their ability to put on a professional looking show, rather than their ability to sing. I apologize if I led the conversation away from that. The ascertion is that even in a depressed economic area, hosts have the potential to make better money if their shows are produced in a more professional manner.

Whether we need a new thread to discuss the manner in which we increase our rate of pay, I will leave to better brains than mine. I thought it was relevant, but perhaps a new thread would be more appropriate.

[bryant]

Alan, first of all, I was delighted by your analysis, regardless of length, and your explanations of what you do different that seems to make your shows different.

I have been doing many of those very things you suggest, which does amount to more than just "John, good job, Jane, you're up next." In fact I got a chance to visit another show last month, and I could've sworn the host must have said that, and only that, about 45 times.

I tend to use that short time between singers to interact with the crowd, either by praise (but not the same ole "good job, Pete"), or something special about how that person did something, or anything else that is complimentary, or sometimes joke with the crowd in general. When not adding in too much, I play background fanfare for the next singer as well. I always mention other shows in town, and encourage ppl to visit them and to let me know if there is something that I can do to improve mine. That gives them some form of ownership, they can associate with, and they usually end up saying '"Nothing you can do, you are the best".

Many usually leave and say, "Wow, this is not the typical karaoke show we usually get around here, and I've been to all of them."

Alan, again, thank you for your advice on professionalism, it was read twice, if not three times.

[SteveWalker]

Thanks for reminding me that this is thread about how much a KJ gets paid so we did get off track defining what a KJ, DJ and MC is.

So back to the topic of this thread please!
In Clearwater I know that KJ's made $250 for a four hour show in 1988 and today KJ's average $125 for a four 4 hour show. The average KJ could make much more money if they were more professional.

[bryant]

But then again, those who are not, accept the fact, lower the rate, get gigs, and then the avreage rate is lowered,
sort of supply and demand, especially if the bar owner is not concerned about a certain level of professionalism, just the amount of dollars that go over the counter.

In a "regulated" profession (notice I changed my choice of wording here), this would be against the law. But by nature, the kj/dj "profession", is not regulated in any manner, thereby exposing the "profession" to legal quacks.

[alanross]

Originally Posted by bryant

Alan, again, thank you for your advice on professionalism, it was read twice, if not three times.

I'm happy to share whatever I can with anybody who cares, if it helps increase the validity of Karaoke as a valuable commodity for bar owners.

As always, the devil is in the details - it's those little touches that will always set you apart from the rest of the crowd.

[bryant]

Okay, here in Central Maine, from what I've seen as in most of all Maine, DJ's, KJ's, VJ's that do bars seem to get somewhere between 100 and 200 dollars, even on weekend nights. This does not include the pay for those occasional "special" event things like birthday parties, weddings, functions, etc., just repeat weekly bar work.

I like to think that my minimun wage is 150 dollars, weekday or not. I started at 100 on a Sunday night a year ago at this place to get him started (new bar in town, where there is already too many) when I told him my goal was to work towards my minimum of 150.
Three months later we spoke and he wanted to be incremental about it and gave me 125. Then the summer came and I told him I couldnt work weekday nights anymore when the next school season begins, as I am a teacher, and he said I could pack up at 12:30, leave my stuff on stage and worry about it the next day. I live less than a mile away. All I have to do the next day is tear down and put stuff offstage as my equip. stays in the building. Then I asked if I was worth the 150 I originally spoke about. He said yes. So I figured that was a decent gig and could still get up in the morning and go to school to teach w/o killin' myself.

Now the question?
He recently offered me Monday and Tuesday too. He said that Monday would only be a DJ night for a few hours while a small crowd is there. How busy can a Monday night get in Maine, right. He also said, while you're here feel free to help your self to a few drinks or eats (also a restaurant).

How much do you think I should accept (total amount)for that guaranteed three night gig (max = 4 hrs a night and 2 on Monday), get home at 12:30 leave my stuff on stage all nights and simply move off stage to side on Wed. afternoon?

I'll tell you the last conversation we had after I hear from some of you. Please advise, however.