No! Don't renumber my BookIDs!

[admin]

Now that we allow MP3+G and ZIP files to be added into our Songs Database, our BookID creation logic must change.

The current BookID is forced unique for a Brand-DiscID, with the Track# appended at the end. We need to change it to be a simple 1, 2, 3... 1,005, 1,006... 25,294, 25,295... you get the idea. This will allow us to offer a "batch convert" of MP3G and ZIP files, and still have a unique "SongID" aka BookID.

One drawback is that all existing Song Books would be obsolete, requiring reprinting. We really need to do this with a free release with just this new feature in a Hoster 3.10x, which also would be a free upgrade.

One advantage is that we will provide one or more means to manually or automatically renumber duplicate BookIDs. Hoster would automatically update the KMA file header if its BookID changed.

I'm looking for feedback on our renumbering the BookID.


FYI: We have already started on a major change for Hoster 3.2 to the Song Book Preparation dialog box. It allows you total flexibility to create custom Song Books with only the fields you want. It will be in Hoster 3.2. See the attached image below for the current controls layout. Each list box field showing can be changed to one of the possible selections to display. We have more to do, so if you want to comment on this, please do so.

[mhollyts]

I do not understand why you would make us reprint our books! You need to change the way things are numbered, thats fine. Why don't you use the next Book ID number as your starting point and number from there up.

The next Book ID is 693 making you song ID's 69301 - 69315. Then the next Song Number in the new system would be 69300 and number up from there. This would allow for the current books to continue to work and no heartache after the upgrade. It is not easy/cheap to print all new books.

If you are going to change the print can we add a option to have single column output or dual column output like it is now for the song book as well.

[Digital Party]

Howdy,

I am a little confused....Can I just leave off at the last song in my books, for example,.....12043........the next number under the NEW way of doing the book numbering would be 12044? then 12045,46,47...etc.???

Or will the upgrade cause my numbers to change and then I will have to reprint my books.....

[TKaraoke]

I too have just reprinted my song books! Having to reprint again is UNACCEPTABLE! Since everyone that has used Hoster since it came out is using the original numbering system, let the people who want to use mp3 or zip files jump thru the some hoops to comply to whats out there already or use a seperate numbering sysytem for that stuff. No NASA people working here I see!
TK

[Party of one]

I can't believe this is being done to us. To me it take time and money. I've already had a dealing in the database first name first last name second, now this. I have defended MTU when others thought I was crazy. Seems like many of us will not upgrade until it's time to redo our books. It might even drive others away. Everyone, and I mean everyone exspects DK 1 thru 99 to be first. I've already fought that battle and lost. Wow what a bomb this is. To exspect us to redo our books. Many of our customers have little pads with number written down of songs they sing. I even save my customers slips. I am very dissapointed in this latest upgrade. I've spent a lot of money buying not only hoster but the shuttle from MTU so i would have no problems. Big problems, I had to send the whole unit back at my exspence. I did it. Still stood by you guys. But this is really bad. I've waited for this upgrade now it's no use to me. I can't see doin my books right now and I usually do mine once a year. Like I said I believe this is bad not giving us a choice.

[MimiLee]

Will the first release of the upgrade require renumbering or is this to be another release?

[admin]

Originally Posted by admin

I'm looking for feedback on our renumbering the BookID.

Hummm.... some of you failed to read the above part of my post! Let's leave out the "knee-jerk" reactions and think positive. OK?

Digital Party... THANK YOU for your suggestion. That is what I am looking for; working together with us. If we simply start numbering the "new BookID" from the last one in your Songs Database, that looks like it IS the answer! I have just spent 5 hours coming to that conclusion.

However, we don't have a buy-off from MTU Programmers yet. It does look very promising though.

Some MP3+G and ZIP files already don't have Brand-DiscID-Track# identification. Currently, it is impossible to import these into Hoster 3.108. Hoster 3.109+ MUST allow batch importing INDIVIDUAL Files as KMA files indexed in the Songs Database.

While you have been posting, I have been thinking... because I was ALREADY AWARE reprinting Song Books is expensive.

When we cut over to "Song based BookID", we would do the following:

1. Remove the Import Screen BookID Root field and Next button. The new "Song based BookID" will be automatically assigned to prevent duplicates. Any older duplicate BookIDs that found will be renumbered using the next higher number. The BookID will PROBABLY no longer follow the current BookID ROOT+Track#.
   
   Here is a problem. The Import screen Status field shows IMPORTED when a file has already been imported. This CURRENTLY requires the DiscID, which is uniquely tied to the BookID ROOT. I doubt if we can continue to do this check and verify. There is a LOT of code and error checking behind this function. I'd hate to see it disappear.
   
   
2. Add a "Merge Songs into Database" command. Whenever you add existing KMA files (ex: imported on your backup system) into Folders identified in the Build Songs Database command, the Build Songs Database command will add them to the Database IF... they do not have the same BookID as one already there (determined by which was processed first). With Auto-Renumbering, your Song Book would be worthless following a rebuild of the Database. A Merge command would start with the EXISTING SONGS DATABASE (and thus Song Books), and add any new files into it, renumbering ONLY the NEW files that are currently NOT in your Song Book. The Unprinted tracks for next Song Book parameter will be reset to zero when the Merge command runs, and its count updated with each new merged song. The Print New Release Pages option in the Prepare Song Book dialog will then work as it does now. In case you can't see it, the "elegance" is starting to happen here!!!
   
   
3. Allow Edit Songs dialog Select Single tab to edit all fields, except BookID. Editing the BookID is not required with automatic renumbering. If scant song info is present when imported, you will WANT to edit these fields.

If song filenames only have Title and possibly Artist, duplicates will happen. When MP3G and ZIP filenames contain the DiscID and Track# fields within the filenames, Hoster 3.108 searches the Import and Song Databases. If the DiscID is found, it automatically fills in the Title and Artist fields before importing. We will add a new means into Hoster 3.109 (not in 3.108) to batch import MP3G and ZIP files. You can have FAST IMPORT, or CAREFUL IMPORT. The latter takes time and attention. We will try to create the new means to be unattended if desired. There is no other way to get 20,000 MP3G songs into KMA files and indexed in the Songs Database. At 1 second/song (which is the right ballpark for converting MP3 based files), 20,000 will take 5.55 hours. That's with the FAST IMPORT with unattended operation. If you are involved, it will take MUCH longer, but the songs will then be CAREFULLY IMPORTED. Our goal will be to provide the "tool" to allow both.

Now it's your turn... please evaluate and post your comments on these proposed changes.

[Digital Party]

MTU,

I am in your hands.......I know that you have the interest of us users in mind, thanks for that. You do what you do best and let me know what I have to do. I know that redoing my books can cost money.....let's look at this......

If you are trying to do the best at your Karaoke shows, you will have to upgrade your books soon anyway......I get new music every couple of months. Some people get new music every month, some every 6 months,....some never do (OH NO!!! DID I JUST SAY THAT? ) TRY CHARGING MORE FOR YOUR SHOWS....LET'S RAISE THE BAR ON SHOW PRICES ACROSS THE NATION (OH NO!!! HE SAID THAT TOO ) OK...that's enough on that.......

I will be downloading the new hoster, and playing around with it a little first before I upgrade for my shows. I want to make sure that everything is OK before I go out in public. That's just me.

Remember,...If you are doing your shows as a business,.......The cost of new books is tax deductable, in the long run. Pay now, get it back at the end of the year. My CPA is always telling me to "Spend More Money". I tell him I don't have anymore to spend. In the end, we will all have a better product. This is the only KJ software that has been THIS STABLE for me.

MTU.....TELL ME WHAT YOU NEED ME TO DO!!!! I'M JUST GLAD TO BE HERE

[Party of one]

If I jumped the gun on MTU vision of changing the numbering system in the next update then I'm sorry. The main fuction of a good show is your books. No matter how good of a system you have if they can't find the songs you are dead meat. Just the thought of changing my books after all the hard work I put in just makes me shudder. Like I said before I've been on MTU side telling everyone that hoster is the way to go. I was even able to get someone to buy hoster. Glad to see that we have time to makes our desions on what we would like to do. I'm so used to hoster I would hate to have to do a show without. That would be a disaster. Thanks for this forum where we can give our views like and dislikes.

[djbrian]

First, the most difficult thing in the new numbering system would be for the returning singers who I keep their slips from week to week. Thats not really that bad, it's just a matter of changing the song numbers on their slips. Everthing else sounds like it's automatic. All you have to do is print the books. I know that the paper and ink isn't free, neither is your time, but I have 8 books that I have to re-do, all in page protector sleeves. I would welcome the change of the automation so that I don't have to use a third party songbook program (Music Book Deluxe) anylonger. The only advantage to their program is the availability of updates to the database monthly via automatic download when you are online with the software running. That would be MY most desired feature to include in future versions!!! Otherwise, the zip and mp3 coversion and renumbering is necessary! I just bought Hoster, after using Sax & Dotties for the last two years, I have to re-do everything anyway. I have ALL of my music imported into ZIP files fron audiograbber. I need the conversion ability very soon!! Otherwise it is a very long process that I must go through to re-import all my songs AGAIN in the KMA format.

Brian

[Party of one]

Just a thought about renumbering. I don't use hoster books because when I first got hoster their database was first name first. Now they change the database to last name first. So half of my database is first name and half last name first. So I use exel so I would have to start all over again. That's why I would have a lot of work ahead of me. Actual I use KJpro then export to exel. Either way I'm in for alot of work. That's where the rub is on me. I guess I'm in this alone so I will have to deal with this problem. If I had not had my database split I think I wouldn't mind so much. The thought of loading all the disc to the hard drive to match with one last name first would take too much time. (I've already done it twice that's another story) Now if I could do it without loading every disc. I would use the hoster database and the numbering wouldn't be as bad. Just my thoughts.

[DJYale]

Some MP3+G and ZIP files already don't have Brand-DiscID-Track# identification. Currently, it is impossible to import these into Hoster 3.108. Hoster 3.109+ MUST allow batch importing INDIVIDUAL Files as KMA files indexed in the Songs Database.

.................

Here is a problem. The Import screen Status field shows IMPORTED when a file has already been imported. This CURRENTLY requires the DiscID, which is uniquely tied to the BookID ROOT. I doubt if we can continue to do this check and verify. There is a LOT of code and error checking behind this function. I'd hate to see it disappear.

For MP3+G and ZIP files without a diskID, What about using an entry such as cst????-??. (I used cst = to custom for the example, the first 7 characters being the DiskID, the second two after the - being the Track)

Here's the logic in this:

1. Say I have 12 songs by elvis that are in MP3+G format I want to import. Using the second method I could assign a DiskID of cst1001-01 for the first then increment the number after the - for each one, putting all the songs by Elvis under one DiskID (the number after the - being used as a TrackID)
   
   
2. In a batch import of non-related songs contrary to the above, You could either have the user enter a starting DiskID (CST1001 for example) and a Max Track ID (say 1 through 20), or have an Auto-Increment DiskID check box that would automatically find the first open CST???? Disk ID available and start from there. The import could then start with CST0001-01 for the first imported song, then increment the track ID until it reaches the Max value. Then move on to the next available DiskID (CST1002). I'd recommend a check box for this along the lines of "Automatically increment DiskID". This way, those who want to assign their own DiskID's for each "set" can, and those who just want to import them can tell it to Auto increment and let it go.

This would assign all imported songs with a unique DiskID-TrackID combination. And unless I missed something (highly possible) would keep the existing BookID system intact. Granted there is nothing to prevent the user from importing the same song multiple times under multiple DiskID-TrackID combinations except being cautious in the even the song does not have the combination in the file name.


Also, say down the line I get 3 more elvis songs I would like to import, I could go back to the original DiskID (CST1001 in the example) and add them to the end using the next free TrackID entries. In the example that would be CST1001-13, etc.


This would give users some flexibility in maintaining their lists when it comes to MP3+G's that have no associated DiskID-TrackID, while maintaining the current structure.

[Digital Party]

The regulars that keep there slips from week to week will forgive you . If you have a good show. I don't keep slips for anyone. If they want to sing, fill out a new slip. Ain't got time for that.

Yea....sometimes it's a lot of work...I used to use KJPro. Don't know why you would not want to use the Hoster Book function. After you do it once, it is just so easy. KEEP SMILING AND SING

[Party of one]

Yea....sometimes it's a lot of work...I used to use KJPro. Don't know why you would not want to use the Hoster Book function. After you do it once, it is just so easy. KEEP SMILING AND SING

Digital Party
I would love to use hoster book fuction if my songs weren't split between first name first last name first blunder. (Sounds like who's on first) It's a mess, hard to explain.

[PastMember]

A quick glance over this thread looks like the ability to use our own numbering methods are being slowly replaced.

The Print New Release Pages option in the Prepare Song Book dialog will then work as it does now. In case you can't see it, the "elegance" is starting to happen here!!!

This is known as "creeping elegance." What you're proposing here to to "break something that works" -- namely the Print New Release Pages -- so that you can "fix it later." To use your words; "The Print New Release Pages option in the Prepare Song Book dialog will then work as it does now."

It works now.... why mess with it?

(While you ask for opinons Dave, let's not shoot the messenger.)

I would much rather KEEP my books the way the are and be forced to rename my files to match what you need to import them into a database.

It appears that we would be suffering a HUGE (as in costly and timely) inconvenience for your programmer's convenience.

Currently, I can use MP3+G just fine... no need to change it; AND if I want it as a KMA file, I can burn it to a 39 cent disc and import it directly and use my own bookid. Would I care if it took a week to do this? Absolutely not... I've invested plenty of hours importing discs into KMA already and it's the upgrades I use DURING a show that matter to me (like a working fade button). Making books and importing files can be done any other time.

Most of the "upgrades" that have been added as of late are NOT (I repeat, NOT) designed to improve the operation of the program, there are still audio drops and other hang-ups. Automating another file format to import isn't going to make the program run any better -- like adding chrome doesn't make a car run better. After all, Hoster can't currently recurse file folders and find all the kma's on a drive by itself... we have to tell it where to look... not a problem in other programs and from a programmer's standpoint, recursion is VERY simple.


Frankly, it appears as though the upgrading (at least for me) has come to an end....

[alanross]

Originally Posted by admin

One advantage is that we will provide one or more means to manually or automatically renumber duplicate BookIDs. Hoster would automatically update the KMA file header if its BookID changed.

I'm looking for feedback on our renumbering the BookID.

If we can keep our existing book numbers and simply add new ones and have the ability to renumber duplicate bookids, I see this as a great tool.

You get to keep existing song books,
add all your MP3Gs to your song books by printing out the New Release pages,
Change accidentally duplicated Book IDs
merge your files for a reprint of your whole songbook.

I reprint all my song books once a year to merge the new releases into the books. If I can merge the old and new song numbers in the songbook database, I can print out a songbook that contains all my old song numbers (pleasing the people with their own little lists) and all the new songs I was able to add to our inventory will now show up in the main body of the song books.

If I've deciphered the concept correctly, this is a win-win situation.

- Alan

[CochrellGary]

If the new proposed numbering system will not allow me to use the current KMA numbering system, and continue to use the current system, then I will not upgrade Hoster beyond the current release.

I don't use or have the MP3G format and never will, not that it's a bad format, I just don't use it. I like the current numbering system. I have a lot of time and money invested in the current system. I hope future versions of Hoster will allow one to use the current system or the new proposed numbering method.

Gary

[gduns - with the Lord]

Well,
The problem I have with it, is I have also put the diskid on the actual disk and filed them by that in my disk cases. If we co to a sequential system, I would have as many as 10 disks with the same diskid. That is where I am seeing a probem.

Just as a thought, Could we possibly keep the "diskid" "next" system in in place for the people that use cdg's to import, and on the cdg conversions, number sequential with a letter in front of the sequential number.

The reason I mention this, is because as we are adding vcd's into the book, it would be nice to be able to differenciate between a regular karaoke song, and the vcd version of even the dvd version when that comes along.

for instance all vcd numbers would be v10...... , and all dvd disks would be d10...., and make all mp2+g's M10.....

I am not shure if this could be done, but it seems like it could ne doable.

[bjswaim]

I'm not sure if I am understanding how the proposed new numbering system works, so I'll state what I think it is saying and my response to it. If I am wrong in my understanding, hopefully Admin, you can correct me.

Currently the system gives each DiscID a specific number (BookID Root) and then appends the song track to this BookID Root, giving us 62901....62915, etc.

My understanding of the proposed system is that each disc would not be given a specific number, but each song you import will be given a specific number, say starting at 1...2...3..., etc. No separate BookID number for each disc imported, but a SongID number for each song imported.

If I am understanding correctly, this would be a nightmare to keep your individual discs organized and know (if you have a problem with an import sometime in the future) what disc it was imported from. Currently I number each of my discs I import by the BookID Root. Also, if I have a disc that has a bad track that I don't want to import until I either resurface this disc or purchase a new one, I will go ahead and import the "good" songs and wait to import the "bad" songs later. With this new system, the track(s) from the same disc, when imported later will have a totally different number than the tracks I imported earlier. That will be a problem (at least for me).

If my understanding is correct with this new numbering system, I will probably not upgrade any longer since the current numbering system works perfectly for my situation. I don't have or use MP3G or ZIP files and never plan on using them, so this new numbering system would be of no use to me, only a problem. Possibly you could offer the new numbering system on a version of Hoster that is geared toward MP3G and Zip file systems and then have the version for those of us who only use CDG's in our system and leave that numbering system as it is. I would hate the fact that I couldn't upgrade to newer versions that have better features because it would totally screw up my current numbering system and cause me nothing but headaches and time in trying to figure out which songs belong with which discs.

[Party of one]

That brings up another problem I am seeing. I use my disc as back up to hoster. I would have no idea what disc to use in a back up matter. I guess could renumber my discs.