Are we legal or not???

[Skybird74]

Admin, please help us out on this one. This is being passed around by new KJ's. It is from a site called www.karaokestar.com

"The other issue regarding laptop and hard drive karaoke systems in that it is illegal to load purhased CDG's on these systems. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the laptop/hard drive manufacturer and the karaoke music provider. Many owners of these laptop/hard drive systems argue this point as they have been misinformed. Many KJ's assume CDG's are classified the same as regular CD's and feel it is legal to make back up copies or copy onto another media. There is a legal difference! If you doubt this, we welcome you to contact the CDG Manufacturers directly and find out what they say about their discs being LOADED on a hard drive."

I personally trust MTU. Can you please explain!
Many KJ's are now afraid to put their CDGs on yours or any other hard drive, as they have been told that laptops are being confiscated because of this.

[mindonstrike]

I could not find the info you indicated at that site but I've been hearing it for years from armchair lawyers.
****************************
You can start here http://mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm of course this is a legal opinion and doesn't mean anything until there is a court case and a judge rules one way or another.

My personal opinion (for what it's worth) is that because the use of this technology for karaoke and DJ is so pervasive that a judge would be hard pressed to rule it illegal without some kind of loophole (such as the requirement of having the originals available for inspection). But again this is MY opinion.

Sam

[George]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

....If you doubt this, we welcome you to contact the CDG Manufacturers directly and find out what they say about their discs being LOADED on a hard drive

Now that in itself is a JOKE, and a TIP OFF.

JOKE...What do you think the CDG manufacturers are going to say when it is them that hold the posture their material cannot be copied for any purpose?

TIP OFF...If that's the best reference for authority the writer of that material can come up with it's obvious they're either just winging it, naive, working with the CDG manufacturers, or trying to drive the market in their direction(selling cdg players).

[Skybird74]

Here is the complete link, where I quoted from:

http://www.karaokestar.com/lapharkarsys.html

[ddouglass]

Skybird,
See if this answers your question. It is a compilation of the court cases involving Karaoke CDGs. Here is the link:
http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

In essence it says that we are legal according to the courts and Congress.

[Skybird74]

I went to that web site & everthing on that first page is quoting very old laws from the 90's and before. This is 2006. I see only one reference to putting CDGs onto laptops, saying the following: "...it seems likely that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) would be found fair use if the issue were ever litigated. "

So, has it ever been litigated? Are there any laws specific to putting our CDGs onto a laptop?

And, what about people claiming to have their laptops confiscated even though they owned the CDGs that are on it?

[Skybird74]

OK, here's the last paragraph from IP Justice - which seems to be from 2003 - does sound like it might be legal:

Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

[lmcmains]

Conclusion: Fair Use Protects CDG Owners
The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

This was dated 2004.
I guess you have to use your own judement if you want to do it or not. There is lots of out there have been doing it for quite a few years without any proplems.

[ddouglass]

Did any of those who claim to have had there laptops confiscated go to court to fight it or did they just surrender? Even though some of the cases sighted are from the 90s they are stillvalid arguments. Roe vs Wade (the abortion case) was from the 60s and is still a valid case.

As Larry said, use your own judgement. There are very few cases to interpret the laws governing CDG copyrights. Unless Congress specifically passes a law concerning Karaoke and what is and isn't legal we will never have a clear picture of their rights vs our rights.

[Skybird74]

I'm curious where you found the date of 2004?

Does anyone know about the difference in laws between public bars, restaurants, etc. and private clubs such as Veterans' clubs, Moose lodges, etc. Public places I've played showed their affiliation with ASCAP and BMI either on or near the front door. Are private clubs also required to join? Are there instances when a band or KJ is also required to be a member?

[ddouglass]

Private Clubs also must have the same licenses and posted. The only time you the KJ would have to get a license from them would be if you are doing private parties with attendance of 300 or greater (I don't have a reference handy for that, but I know we found that in some of our research when we were starting out).

[Skybird74]

Good info to know. Thanks.

What about smaller clubs that can't hold more than 75 or 150? Is there any difference there?

[lmcmains]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

I'm curious where you found the date of 2004?

Does anyone know about the difference in laws between public bars, restaurants, etc. and private clubs such as Veterans' clubs, Moose lodges, etc. Public places I've played showed their affiliation with ASCAP and BMI either on or near the front door. Are private clubs also required to join? Are there instances when a band or KJ is also required to be a member?

I put in a search for it and found the same page. It was on the page before it.http://www.ipjustice.org/regions/ Down about half way you will find.
"Digital Copyright Question: Fair Use of Karaoke CDGs"
IP Justice Response to US Legislation
April 30, 2004
Use the first link to get the date. It is under North America.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

Good info to know. Thanks.

What about smaller clubs that can't hold more than 75 or 150? Is there any difference there?

Club size doesn't make any difference, except their license will be less. Fee is based on potential amount of use of the music.

[Skybird74]

Imcmains - thanks for the other web page where it shows the year 2004, so I didn't have to spend hours searching.

I feel it's important to dispel rumors as quickly as possible. Many people think all they have to do is buy a karaoke machine, get some music & POOF they're an instant KJ, and then wonder why they're out of business in a matter of months.

Many people don't understand the dedication it takes to please the customers, or the time it takes to put together a successful karaoke show, as well as the ongoing committment. Anyone who's been doing this for a while knows their is always new equipment to buy, repairs to be mde & upgrades, not counting constantly buying new music & keeping our books up to date. There are still those out there that think all we have to do is carry in the equipment, do a show & go home, and nothing else to do. I hear it from my customers all the time.

[Skybird74]

Originally Posted by George

Also can't help wonder why SKYBIRD seems to be taking an anti pc program posture by making anyone who supports it prove their stance. Are you fronting for someone, SKYBIRD?
If not, I apologize, but it wouldn't be the first time on these open forums.

Your above statements made me feel the need to both defend and explain myself. And although you apologized if you were wrong, I was referring to your last sentence where it says:
"it wouldn't be the first time on these open forums"
My statement was to get you to lighten up & not be so suspicious.

I can ask you as similar question: What is it that I said that made you think I was "taking an anti pc program posture"? And, how was I "making anyone who supports it prove their stance"?

I was merely asking questions which everyone in this business needs to know the answers to.

[gduns - with the Lord]

read the label, or cover that most dvd's cd's, and karaoke cd's come in, and they all state "Not for Public Performance". If this is the case isnt even playing a Cd with a cd player Illegal?

This rule is excepted when the club you are playing at pays Ascap. As Ascap is being paid for the performance rights. I dont think Ascap cares where the music comes from as long as They get Paid.

But this is my opinion. Not a statement of fact. It is purely common sense. (but then again when have laws been common sense)

[ddouglass]

George....lighten up guy

[admin]

Skybird, please read this Thread that evolved over this legality issue for years past.

1. There has NEVER been a court case testing the legality.
   
   
2. Sound Choice's sales staff has recommended MTU's Hoster for over a year.
   
   
3. NO ONE has the legal right to CONFISCATE equipment without a COURT ORDER, and NO ONE has EVER heard of a single court case where the US MARSHALLs were sent to conficate equipment. Frankly, if the person(s) who are posting the statements about confiscation cannot prove that a COURT ORDER was given in writing, then this is a lie that they are spreading to YET AGAIN stir up this matter.
   
   
4. MTU has Sheriffs and State Attorney Generals who use Hoster for running shows. They told us a Court Order is required, and that only a US Marshall is empowered to confiscate equipment.

I'm closing this Thread as there is nothing else to be said about it.