Legality issues!!

[Rickyokie]

Added by Admin June 10, 2004. MTU paid IPJustice.org to research USA Case Law (tried in Court) if making backup copies is legal, including copying to a hard drive. Read their legal research results (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=25020). You'll be glad you did! :w

Added by Admin May 28, 2006. SPIN and KAPA were both started (and ended) by Sound Choice in an attempt to prevent copying in any form; legal or illegal. Legal is when you own the disc and make a backup copy, or "media shift" the content by importing it to a hard drive for use without the discs. Illegal is making copies to give to friends, swap discs with others, sell to your clients, or true Bootlegging where someone makes 5,000 copies and selling them. Today, Both SPIN and KAPA are gone. However, the USA Copyright Law still prevals, and it is now accepted by the industry that making backup copies, or media shifting is within the Law.


Greetings to all.

I have watched this site for a very, very long time and been very interested in the what MTU is offering. Obviously up untill now I have not opted to even post, but to listen. and learn from you.

I am 37 and have been a Kj for 17 years. I have 2 Karaoke systems, 3 employees and 10 yearly contracted gigs, and a lot of music... all legit hardcopies. Over 1,200 Cdg total, plus about 600 dance cd's

I have 1 question that I have not seen addressed here (UNLESS I have missed the post).

I have been a member of Spin and KaPa from the beginning. I pay ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC their dues as well. I firmly believe in everyone getting their nickel! I have ALWAYS had an accountant, paid my taxes and I don't have even 1 "Burned" cd or Mp3.

Some call me a wuss for being so anal. ....WHATEVER!! I believe what is right is right. and it has served me well. What goes around, comes around.

It has been MY experience that 95% of everyone I have EVER dealt with in the field of Dj's and Karaoke that they are always looking for any and every way to circumvent the system every chance they get. And I can count on 1 hand the nuber of people that pay their dues to the right people. Including to the Gov't.

BUT ANYWAY...Here is my confusion.

SPIN and KAPA tell me I CANNOT use this technology that you offer. I even sent them to your site for an oerview of what you are offering. They say it is still breaking copyright laws, as pertaining to the label on the CD's ...NO COPYING OF ANY KIND IS PERMITTED. AT LEAST this is what they are telling ME!! can someone set me straight???

How do I address this with them?? What can I tell them that will make them let me do this, and still retain my statis with them. I am VERY excited about what is offered in the Laptop and I have the money saved and I am ready to buy one right now ....if I can get around this issue!! I am ready for the next Generation!!

Confused, Rickyokie :?

[SteveWalker]

Rickyokie,

I think the question is:

1. If I own 300 CD's is it legal to compress all the songs to files stored on my PC?

2. If I am a DJ with 3000 files stored on my PC is it legal to actually play any of these songs through my speakers in public?

3. Who must be paid for it to be legal? How can I prove that all the songs on my PC are legal (i.e. I have the CD).

I'll be listening for all the legal brilliance of this forum and don't forget this issue is much bigger than mere karaoke.

Steve

[kedmison]

I haven't been a member of this forum for very long. But I too in the begining wondered what was leagl and what ain't! Seems like the "legal" opinion we seek the more confused it often gets. So if I may enter a little of what I think is common sense I will.

I KJ part time and yes I use MTU to make copies. Copies of "MY originals." I paid for them, I don't want to mess them up. And as long as I not using multiple copies, I see nothing wrong.

I'm sitting here looking at my computer and many of the programs that I have "loaded" on to my computer. Now many of these programs could be run by inserting the disc. However, I notice that these programs all have the "originals" setting on my shelf. Am I illegally using these in my computer for which some of these programs are used to make money part time? Whether it's music or a program, I feel the "law" should reflect the same. And if the Legal Eagles out there want to question me, then they are more than welcome to follow me home and let me show them my originals.

Kelly ( soon to be Kellyoke.com)

[Rickyokie]

Thanks for your quick replies, But I am still at a loss. I need to know what will convince SPIN and KAPA to allow this into our Business'...WITHOUT looking over my shoulder...even once.

I did believe in the common sense approach at one time, but then I never used to speed on the freeway either, till about got run off the road for the 4th time... now I rush right along with them at 75 to keep from being killed.

When I was younger My Martial Arts teacher taught me that the more I learned that I could hurt people, the less I would want to hurt people. It in itself is an art ...the art of Humility and humbleness.
BUT there are those out there that just DON'T care and ruin it for all of us, no matter what the consequence.
NAPSTER was a Perfect example. Now they owe Millions of dollars in royalties and fines because they wern't doing it right.

Hopefully this thread will continue and more input can be heard, I feel that I am not alone here, and that more people really want to do what's right.
I will wait to see what light others might shine on this quandry.
Rickyokie :r

[kedmison]

Rickyokie,

Bottom line,...don't try to compare speeding or Napster to copying ones own originals. The first two were illegal. Don't sell copies of originals. That's illegal. Don't make two copies off of one original for your two systems; wrong also. You'll need two originals to make two copies for your two systems!

And as far as KAPA and SPIN, sounds like they are doing you more harm than good. Not saying that they don't have a place and aren't doing good work. My conscious is clear.

Kelly

[kedmison]

Steve,

Wasn't sure if your last post was for me or Rickyokie. Had his name but the question seemed to be to me. So,... Using a Sony 400 player, I find myself having to check my discs about once a quarter. Seems where the disc ride in the player tend to scratch a little. If I were to put only about 15 songs per disc I wouldn't have the problem; however right now I have 198 discs with over 4,000 songs and no dupicates. So I'm averaging a little over 20 songs per disc. As I get originals in, I copy off just the ones I need into the computer and then when I have enough to burn I do. I have some "oldies" music with as many as 28 songs on one disc. Believe me, there's a lot more work to do as I do, but again it suits me. Most of what I have is sound choice. But have others as well. If I get a song in with a version that I like better than the one I have, I simply pull that disc out, recopying th disc minus the version I'm taking out and then subbing the new version.

But as always, I'm dealing with songs where I have the originals.
Hoster will be right up my alley when MTU gets it ready. Will save me many man hours as well as burning and recopying.

Kelly

[Alan Bingham]

You know, the subject is not CDG, or copies of CDG onto CDROMS, but importing the songs from the CDG to your hard drives and using the lap top as your CD player, not lugging those CDGs with you at all, but using a computer to be your player. All of those CD+G back neatly stacked away safe at home, nothing to ever get scratched, cause these files are stored on your hard drive.

now here is the real dilemma:

Example; A singer come up and brings their CDG disk, you import it into your system for them to sing, and next week, they don't need to bring it up anymore cause its now a part of your files. You are providing a service to them.

The files are on your system, unless you delete them after the show. Which I personally wouldn't have any problem doing, but who's to say that actually was done.

ADMIN NOTE: Hoster allows playing a CDG Disc a Singer brings to your show, and we automatically delete the file after it is played or Hoster is closed normally. However, if the computer (or Hoster :e) crashes before the song plays, the imported file is safe on the hard drive. You don't have to worry about having illegal files (i.e. you don't own the discs) on your hard drive.

This can't be compared to Napster, its not the same. There are several Hoster type software packages out there, all of them import the songs to hard drives, using other audio formats that that on the CD+G.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I feel I will ever have this problem, since I do not host the shows, but being the computer freak that I am, I immediately recognized the power of the Hoster type systems, and the software that MTU produces. And realized that the industry will have to change.

I can see that their will be license fees to pay for songs in the future, probably an annual fee with a service that updates your song lists for you or you could copy your own songs. It will somehow change because it will have to keep up with the technology.

The above hypothetical examples in my opinion would be illegal, but possible. :t

This topic is really a question of ethics and it is up to us to be ethical in these maters. :g

Alan
:r

[emwalter]

I am surprised that no one mentioned the obvious answer to the question of legality of copying.

You would need to look up the actual copyright law information, but it goes like this:

You are allowed to make one copy of your original software (and Karaoke is considered software) and cannot be used simultaneousl (or installed) on another machine. This is allowable under the personal use clause of the law, not sure if this includes businesses, most likely it does. You cannot sell, or give away this copy. If you sell the software, you are required to destroy (or, I suppose the law would be satisfied if you gave it to the purchaser of your software) the duplicate copy.

By the same token, you are allowed to do the same with the songs you own (different law, same principle). Even if it is written on the lable of the disk, that you are not allowed to copy it, it falls under the "Fair Use" clause, which in effect, states that you can copy it as long as you are not making a profit from it.

"Fair Use" is also where you are allowed to make a recording of a publicly broadcasted image, or music via video tape or audio tape (the audio tape was what was available at the time, dunno if it also applied to a digital copy, which in essence is a "perfect copy".)

Basically, it would be safe to say, that you ARE allowed to make a backup copy, as long as you own the original. In fact, it would be stupid not to make a backup copy, as long as you don't use the backup for anything other than a backup. If you have two KJ setups, and you only have one original of a disk, you cannont, by law, use the backup in your second system.

As far as the ASCAP and other groups that collect money for the PERORMANCE of songs, you [or the venue wherer you are working] ARE required to pay a Performance License for Public display.

I exclusively use copies of my CDG's, I only have one system, and my originals are put in a safe place, so that I can go back to them in case something happens.

One other thing to think about, I have quite a few discontinued CDG's. You cannot purchase some of them any more, and damaging them would make it difficult if not impossible to replace them. Think about that.

Well anyway, I guess I am done with my orator's pedestal, so I will relinquish it for now.

[SteveWalker]

emwalter,

I agree. I too have a full set of Pioneer CDGs that cannot be replaced as Pioneer reshuffled the deck and many others that cannot be replaced for sure. We have every right to backup our CD's and the manufacturers and stores know it! :)

Steve

[NOW & THEN]

To all that posted on this subject. Another " hypothetical situation, What if you have made only one copy of your originals for back up, and have inported one copy of each to your hardrive for your show, NOW what about if you do 2 gigs on two computers and have done a mirror image of ( YOUR) hardrive to the second computer for use at the second gig?? Legal or no?

ADMIN NOTE: This would be illegal. Copying a hard drive full of songs and using both in simultaneous shows is IDENTICAL to making copies of your one master disc set, and using both copies in CDG Players at two different shows.


Just a thought. It would seem like you are copying your own material on your own equipment for your own use. I agree that no copies should be sold and you shouldn't pirate a copy to your computer from a customer's cdg BUT, I fully believe you should be allowed to duplicate your own material from your own equipment. You tell me?? Thanks ( new member) NOW & THEN

[Rickyokie]

I myself was asking the same question!
I know that this software only lets you make 1 copy to a harddrive, but you buy another computer and all you have to do is copy the harddrive..or if you can't manage that, ...copy the originals again! and run another show, and so on and so on.

I know a guy out of Phoenix, Az. who is doing exactly that!!
He is a programmer for Cox Cable. He has written his own software to run his karaoke shows from his laptops...like MTU has done.

He has copied his disks and has duplicated his system, to run multiple shows and then some. He has done this with the idea that HE built his system and designed it, so why can't he do it. He put all the work into it and he is not selling his idea, but he does profit from it, because of his karaoke shows. He now has shows is 5 States, From Arizona to Alabama.

ADMIN NOTE: He has the right to distribute HIS OWN WRITTEN program however he wishes. However, if he is also copying CDG songs he has imported, this is INCREDIBLY ILLEGAL!!! :m


This is a quandry,... I myself would have no problem buying more than 1 laptop, and I have the money to do it, But does it become a moral problem when you copy the Originals to more than 1 laptop...or if you copy your Original Harddrive, or is this a legal question?

Rickokie

[NOW & THEN]

It seems kinda brutal to have to double your investment of disks to run another show! i'VE GOT OVER 5000 SONGS ON 2 120GIG DRIVES THAT TOOK ME years TO AQUIRE. I'm sure i probably couldn't replace all the songs if i wanted to. At $50.00 an hour it will be a LONG time to justify that expense. lol I wish I truly knew what was legal , but as for moral! I think if you pay for a product you should be able to take FULL advantage of that product as far as multiple use and so forth. On the other hand as I stated before " I will not copy someone elses cdgs for my use because I didn't pay for the right to do so. :)

p.s. Whats the difference between running two computers at a time to do shows at the same time and using the same computer 5 times a week at different shows?? You are still reusing the same media for separate gigs?? right?
Thanks for all the input.

ADMIN NOTE: WRONG! You have purchased the right to use your discs on one system at a time.

If you import them to a hard drive you cannot use the hard drive and the discs at different shows at the same time.

If you duplicate your hard drive to make 2 computer based systems and use them at the same time it it is illegal.

Do NOT duplicate your discs or your hard drive OTHER THAN FOR BACKUP. Yes, you must buy a second set of discs to run a second show.

This is NOT the same as using one set of discs (or hard drive) at multiple shows at different times of the week. You could do this with your one disc set, or with your hard drive computer system. The whole concept is it is ILLEGAL to use a backup at the same time as the originals, or use two copies at the same time. It is ILLEGAL to construct and use two systems at once.

[NOW & THEN]

I guess to be safe if i have 2 gigs at the same time I'll just sell my equipment or my cd collection to the other kj for a dollar till the next day!!! ( JUST KIDDING ) Seriously though I'll just avoid double gigs in the same time frame until I acquire a new set of discs. I hate to use a machine now anyway because the computer setup has me completely spoiled. I now have 5000+ songs in 2 120 gig drives and MTU software, Gr8 sound card and Video card, windows ME 512 mb memory on a 1.5 gig machine w/ a yamaha sound system. I VERY SELDOM have any bugs that aren't simple to fix with a reboot. In short I LOVE IT! WTG MTU.
My next step is to wait for hoster to be as trouble free as my microstudio program, then upgrade to hoster. Dont we have any copyright lawyers kj'ing on weekends??? lol
Thanks again.

[SteveWalker]

You ARE innocent until proven guilty in the USA. Do you think I would hand my $10,000 setup over to a stranger because he says he's from KAPA, ASCAP or whoever... without a court order warrant? :g :g :g :g :g :g :g :g :g :g :g :g

Steve

[emwalter]

Just thought I would interject something else. Remember, you do not actually own the software or the music, you are purchasing a LICENSE to use it. (Most fine prints for software and also music, inform you that you are licensed to use it). Using the copy, as long as it is the only copy being used at any one time should not be a factor, if you have the original, and are not using both the copy and the original to run more than one show. If you are using the original in one system, but also use the copies in yet another show, that would be a violation of your license, if you have two seperate systems, it would most likely be a stretch of the copyright laws to say "I am only using one at a time." If they were a complete system, you most likely could be popped on that.

[Rickyokie]

Just wanted to post a note that BMI had recently tried to hit me up at the club I was in a couple of weeks ago. I stood my ground as Steve Walker had said in a previous post, I was not about to stand there and listen to his BS, and was not about to let him dig through my 648 Cdg's by any means of the word.

He was NOT happy at all and actually became obviously angry at my uncooperation. I told him simply that if he wanted to go through my things to get a warrant!!!

He then told me I had to PAY HIM a BMI license fee then and there, he proceded to pull out a form, and by this time I was very upset at his demeanor and the fact that I was having a hard time running my show, since he kept telling me to put the show on hold while he discussed this with me. I would not!!
I talked to the crowd OVER him while he was talking to me and put my hand in his face everytime he tried to get me to stop.

I told him to invoice me, he said I had to do it there and I had to mail it in. I said invoice me or you won't get it!

By then the crowd was very aggitated as well, he walked away from me mumbling and procedded to talk to the owner.

Since the owner witnessed the whole thing already, he told the guy the same thing ...INVOICE ME and get the hell out of my Bar! He was then escorted out by about 5 not so little customers.
End of story. this was 3 weeks ago and I have not seen an invoice yet. :t

ADMIN NOTE: Good for you!!! From what County Sherriffs, Federal Attorney in Ohio, and even the current owner of SPIN has told us, that is EXACTLY what you should do unless there is a US MARSHALL with him. Then, you are in trouble.

Do NOT ever turn your possessions over to a stranger. If it goes to court and you lose, then the court will tell you to turn your equipment over to them, NOT an individual. KAPA has no legal authority to do anything at your show. They cannot confiscate your equipment. I have never heard that BMI, ASCAP or anyone except a US Marshall has the right to confiscate your equipment.

Just like your experience, we have heard many stories of Hosts who stood their ground and the "buster" was escorted out of the facility by the "bouncers." :g

[jim in ohio]

OK, I've read this thread from one end to the other, but no where do I see any comments from MTU.
What is MTU's position on the legality of Hoster, the KJ is no longer playing off discs, if the KAPA police want to see the discs, do you show them your hard drive?? It has no copywrite sticker on it.
How does KAPA know what discs were down loaded into the hard drive to prove piracy??

Could be I am looking at this all wrong, maybe we just need to dump some of our discs, and stick to those brands with no copywrite on them at all like:

Hot Line Karaoke
Backstage Karaoke
Top Tunes
Top Hits Monthly

I'm sure there are more out there but that's all I found in a quick look at my discs, there is not the first thing on those brands about a copywrite or that stupid note on some forbidding public performance like DKKaraoke.
Jim

[jim in ohio]

I just had some new CDG bricks delivered. There is a new propaganda paper in the boxes, and I will quote:

"CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords not computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express writen permission of the copyright holder."

And this one I just love:

"You may not use an archived copy. KAPA is currently working with CDG manufacturers to try to develope an exchange or replacement program for KJs, provided the KJ can submit the orgional broken disc and the orgional receipt. The best protection is to buy two copies of a popular disc."

They are offering REWARDS up to $1000 for turning in a KJ for a long list of things one being:

"It is unlawful to store the orgional disc as a master while using Archive copies in shows. Orgionals cannot be stored as insurance against damaged, lost, or worn-out discs."

Can you guess what brand the bricks are???? I've never seen this flyer in any sound choice product before.

Jim

Where is the smilie face with his hand up with one finger raised in the air??

[jim in ohio]

Can I make 1 copy of an original CDG?
CDGs fall under the protection of a several copyright laws. Under all of these laws, duplication for commercial or profession use is explicitly forbidden without the express written permission of the copyright holder, which in this case is the CDG manufacturer.

Admin note:Read this link on MTU's site. (http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm) Making a backup copy by a rightful owner is not covered under the USA copyright law, where all violations of illegal copying and sales or distribution are very clearly listed with the penalties. Does that not tell you that the Copyright Law writers INTENTIONALLY did not disallow preventing making backup copies by a legal owner?

If I am hosting a karaoke show, may I record the singers and give them a copy of their performance? In addition, may I charge for the service of copying their performance?

Admin Note: If the Singer brings in their disc, and you play it and record them and give or sell them the recorded disc, to our knowledge it is legal. If you use YOUR music they sing to, and sell or give them a recorded disc it is ILLEGAL; they have never paid for the right to use that song.

No on both accounts. This would be copyright infringement because royalties are not being paid on copyrighted material to the copyright holder(s). The original songwriter is receiving no royalties on this copy. The CDG manufacturer is not receiving any compensation on its copyrighted re-creation of the original work either. In this case two separate and different copyright violations are occurring.

May I use an archived copy of a CDG that I broke in my show?
No. No such archived copy should have been made in the first place. CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords not computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express written permission of the copyright holder(s) which is the CDG manufacturer. (Misleading information had been posted on various sites earlier, but it has since been retracted.)

Go to KAKA site, the above was pasted directly from that site, that's what I'm talking about...

Admin note: Why doesn't KAPA list the exact link to the USA Copyright Law that they continuously illude to and seem to quote? Read for yourself (http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm) and see if you can find any part of the law that prevents making a backup copy. If you do, please return here and post it for our benefit. Also, this is a public Forum so anyone is able to post a link to the law here. Where is it?


Jim

[jim in ohio]

Man there is one huge mixed bag of information out there!!

http://www.sdmi.org/FAQ.htm

under FAQ

12. Q - Will consumers still be able to copy their CDs onto their personal computers?

A - Yes. The specification allows consumers to copy (rip) their CDs onto their computers for personal use (on their PC, on their portable devices, on their portable media, etc.). In fact, the specification enables consumers to do so as many times as they wish – as long as they have the original disk.


Jim

[jim in ohio]

I have a customer service contact I have used at Sound Choice a number of times, I just layed it out to her to get me the official Sound Choice opinion of playing off the computer hard drive, she told me there are a number of good programs on the market that do this.

When she gets back with me I'll post it here....

She said the answer for playing off of backups is already on the KAPA site as I posted above... And yes they have taken lonely KJ's to court, but are mostly looking for those selling, or coping for money.

Jim

[SteveWalker]

George and jim in ohio,

It's simple what I want people to know here. Is it legal to rip their CDG's to files on the PC and use them in public to do a karaoke show? Period. I don't want to rewrite the laws or the way law enforcement is done. That would be a separate thread or debate ok?

What we are talking about is directly relevant to whether it is legal to use Hoster (or similar software) in a karaoke show, right?

Steve

[jim in ohio]

Steve,
That's what I want also, that's why I posed this question to Sound Choice, they seem to be the most vocal on this subject.
When they give me an answer, I will share it with all.

But why haven't anyone at MTU voiced an opinion or pasted a site that gives us the answer???

Come on Bryan, jump in there...

Jim

[SteveWalker]

But why haven't anyone at MTU voiced an opinion or pasted a site that gives us the answer??? Come on Bryan, jump in there... Jim

Maybe because it's "an area that's fraught with shades of grey".

Steve

[MTUSUPPORT]

Here you go guys. This is a link to our FAQ's that has some information on the Legality: www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm

Sorry I have been buried alive under tons of work trying to get Hoster all done and bug free.

[jim in ohio]

You are probably correct, this is not the first program to run off the hard disc, there are others out there that were designed for DJ's playing CD's to use a hard drive, cpu and leave the discs at home. And later offered plugin's to run karaoke off the same program.
I have a friend running two of these, and it is so sweet. If Hoster was going to be on the KAPA hit list, I'm sure they would have shut down those older programs by now.



Jim

[SteveWalker]

I think, therefore that he has answered your question by the very fact that he is marketing Hoster. That tells me that he believes it to be a morally correct product, within the framework of the law, and I cannot believe that he would jeopardize a lifetime of work creating MTU to market an illegal product.

I agree with 100%. Now, buy Hoster and rip your CDG's and go do your karaoke shows. Remember to only put files on your PC that are ripped from your original CDG's that you own and keep your CDG's at home in a safe place.

Steve

[S.P.I.N. LLC]

Well the Karaoke indrustry would have you believe that you may not use a mp3 at your show but this is simply not true. As long as you pay ascap and bmi you may.


And you may also make a copy of a cdg, this right is given you by means of the fair use act.

Look it up

[S.P.I.N. LLC]

As for backing up your origional discs on a hard drive and using it in a show instead of your origional discs.........



It would be a very hard case for the music indrustry to win if they even took it to court.

The law allows you to make a archive, this is a fact of life even if the music indrustry likes it or not. Fact is they do not want you to make backups, it means less sales for them.

Face it guys, most major Karaoke Manf. sell their music to CAVS and they load it on a hard drive for use in shows and clubs, so under fair trade, fair business you can do it to as long as you own a origional.

Dont get caught with music you do not own origionals of or you are breaking the law.

[SteveWalker]

S.P.I.N. LLC,

I agree with your post that we can use the PC to do a karaoke show if we have all the original CDG's for all the files on our PC. I haven't converted over to doing my show on a PC so I'm still using CDG's for my show.

You mentioned CAVS and legally purchasing and downloading karaoke files to the PC. If I do this I will never have a CDG to prove it was legally owned. Do you know how I can prove that my CAVS downloaded file were legally purchased?

Steve

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by George
Do they send you a confirmation email, since they're charging a credit card ?

George,
I have never purchased a file from CAVS but I do own PlayCDG PE. I prefer to have the CDG because of the quality and I can rip from it later in another format in the future if need be.

S.P.I.N. LLC,
Can you give us your take on downloading CAVS file and not having proof of where it came from?

Anybody else out there who has purchased/ downloaded a CAVS karaoke file care to comment?

Steve

[Misschiff]

Wow, I've read all the posts and thought I'd add this to the collection of comments :)

Based on KAPA's website http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.shtml, here is the following except:

FAQ #10
Q: "I purchased a CDG and wish to send a copy of it to my friend overseas. Their hardware will not play the CDG format with USA specifications. May I make a video copy of the disc for my friend?"
A: "Yes, BUT the original CDG must accompany the video copy at a one to one ratio, and no further copies may be made."

It sounds to me like you CAN make a copy into a DIFFERENT format, as long as you have the original
____________________________________________

Here is another FAQ,


FAQ #03
Q: "May I use an archived copy of a CDG that I broke in my show?"
A: "No. No such archived copy should have been made in the first place. CDGs fall under the copyright definition of phonorecords NOT computer software. Under the definition, no duplications are permitted under any circumstances without express written permission of the copyright holder(s) which is the CDG manufacturer. (Misleading information had been posted on various sites earlier, but it has since been retracted.)"

For experienced DJs, you will also note that the AVLA licence (audio/video licensing association, Canada) does not include Karaoke material, only regular audio CDs (http://www.avla.ca )
____________________________________________________

Here is another website that I came across and has some interesting points to make as well
http://www.karaokeanonymous.com/legal.html
____________________________________________________

One last point I'd like to make is that the law is the law, no matter how you wish to interpret it to suite your ethical beliefs. If you have a serious Karaoke business, do you really want to jeopardize losing you equipment and battling through court? (not to mention the embarrasment at your gig of being caught with unauthorized disc copies). Your show would be shut down and you might even lose the gig!

Personally I agree with most of what was said in the previous posts regarding copyright and justifying using Hoster. I also believe that one must interpret "fair" and "reasonable" as it was intended. I am a singer/songwriter and musician, and I would certainly want credit and compensation for someone using my original material. It's kind of like cheating the government on your tax return -- you might get away with something you think is perfectly reasonable, but if you are caught, it will be THEIR interpretation of what's reasonable that determines whether it is legal or not!

On the bright side, it certainly appears that KAPA FAQ#10 indicates that reproducing the karaoke material in another/different audio format (such as what Hoster software does) is perfectly legal, so long as you keep the original disc.

Well, at least this is a step in the right direction for us all and makes using Hoster perfectly alright! :g

Regards,
Misschiff

P.S.
Thanks to S.P.I.N. LLC for his additional comments :g

[Rickyokie]

I have'nt posted in a long time, but I wanted to pass on a letter I recieved, ... this is from a correspondence, I have had with Sound Choice director/General Manager Tom Turner. Even though this coversation was about CAVS technology..it is ideaologically the same thing as what MTU is doing..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net

Thank you for taking the time to write, and please excuse my slow response. I have been out of town for the past two week at a series of trade shows.

The issue of putting music on hard drives is a very complex one. Certainly we at Sound Choice understand the desirability of that for a KJ - the portability, ease of use, inventory protection, and so forth. But there is an extremely significant issue that has not yet been addressed by the management of CAVS, or any of the other hard-drive suppliers.

That issue, very plainly, is the inability and/or unwillingness of these manufacturers to protect the music contents from being copied. The other issue is the ability of anyone to load a set of songs on multiple CAVS units.


You mentioned that you currently own two systems, and that you do twelve shows. Now you are buying your first CAVS unit, which you will get pre-loaded with music on the hard drive.

I am assuming that you will buy a second CAVS unit at some time in the future, for your second system.

When you buy your second unit, do you have to purchase another set of the music software, or will you load the same music from your first unit onto the second unit?

Does your purchase agreement with CAVS permit you to make unlimited copies of the one set of music that came with your original machine?

Do you have a release letter form the music manufacturer, explicitly giving you permission to make copies of your original music purchase?

I am sure that you also realize how easy it is to duplicate the contents of a hard drive. I also know that CAVS provides their customers with instructions on how to load their own music on the CAVS units. There are two very fundamental issues with the capability to do this.

The first is that it is completely illegal. Copyright law (for all copyrighted materials - books, music, artwork, etc.) expressly prohibits the use of copies for ANY commercial use. That means that a copy -either onto a disc or a hard drive - cannot be used for any commercial purpose. A copy cannot be sold, given away as a promotional item, played on a for hire or promotional basis, and so forth.

The second issue is even for ethically fundamental, and that is the protection of the KJs themselves. Hard drive system manufacturers do not care about the sales of the music - they are
only interested in selling the hardware. They do not care if an
unscrupulous KJ buys 10 systems, and one set of music for the entire 10 rigs. They do not care that this KJ, with his much lower cost of (illegal) music per rig can now underbid the legitimate KJ, and run him out of business.

Sound Choice has been fortunate to have the support of the KJ industry for many years. There are many hundreds who have been loyal customers for nearly as long as we have been in business. We feel a moral obligation to continue to try and produce the best possible music for these customers, and to make every effort possible to insure that these loyal customers have a fair opportunity to be competitive businessmen.

So that, in a nutshell, is our position. We will not permit the installation of our music on any hard drive machine as long as there is no system to prevent the music from being copied onto another system. When the hard drive system manufacturers begin to feel a sense of responsibility to the KJ industry, rather than their own sales, and add copy protection to their machines, then we will discuss installation of Sound Choice material on a hard drive system.

I hope that this has answered your question. Please feel free to request that CAVS put copy protection on their machines - pressure from their own customer base is probably the only manner in which to get this accomplished. Until it is, I am sorry to say that you will not see any legal Sound Choice songs on a hard drive system anywhere.

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Tom Turner
General Manager


..................................................................................................

From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net



I will try and go through all of your questions in a little more detail next week, but I wanted to address a couple of issues. First of all, the archiving issue. I have no problem with archived copies, which is indirectly addressed by the Fair Use Act that Joe Senter of S.P.I.N. referenced on MTU's site without explanation.

You are allowed to make a copy for PERSONAL use - singing in the shower, in the car, etc. Just can't use it commercially.

As for archived copies, you are certainly permitted to make them - but they are for record-keeping purposes (hence the term archive). You cannot use archive copies instead of your originals in a show. All the folks who want to hang their hats on legal entitlement to making copies try to use this argument.........

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

End Of Letter...

I just thought that you all may like to hear a point of View Close to all of us From someone that actually does know what is going on.

This was recieved through a personal email and not directly through SC... If someone wants to offer rebuttle I will ask Mr. Turner if I may pass his e-mail on to you ...or I can forward any future posts to this letter on to him.

Rickyokie

[admin]

I personally was in meeting with the owners of SC approximately 3 years ago. This was in Derik Slep's office (President) with Kirk Slep (VP Marketing), Joe Senter (owner of SPIN), CM (SC Engineer) and one of my associates.

The purpose of this meeting was two fold...

First, to discuss their buying 5 of our Karaoke Pro workstations. Several of their staff, including CM, had already come to Raleigh to see customized demonstrations. To date, SC has not purchased any MTU Karaoke CDG mastering or other MTU products.

Second, whether they were interested in working with MTU to develop a copy protection means so their songs could be sold and downloaded over the Internet to play on computers. They were not even mildly interested. It is interesting to read their General Manager stating a different position from the owners in the past. I wonder if the owners know and agree to his position?

During this meeting, one of SC's owners challenged me on our Microstudio product for making backup copies. I asked them what a KJ was supposed to do when the discs he/she has are no longer in production. The immediate and very excited answer from him was "they should have purchased their discs from a company that is still in business!" I, my associate and Joe Senter were stunned by this answer as it was self-incriminating. Do any of you own a SC disc that is no longer in production?

Most of you know very well of MTU's position on doing everything legal. I have been a VERY VOCAL opponent against the MP3+G format because it was designed from the start to encourage illegal distribution.

Further, in our software license agreement every customer agrees to, you do not OWN the MTU software you paid us for. You are only LICENSED to use it. If we find you are violating the Contract Law clauses that you agreed to, which are FAR MORE LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE than "interpreted Copyright violation", we will revoke your license to use our products. If anyone communicates to us they want to illegally copy discs, we refuse to sell them Microstudio to our financial detriment. SC knows very well that MTU is a staunch proponent to legalizing Karaoke and preventing illegal copying and distribution of discs. AND... that we stand firm for the professional KJ who pays good money for legal discs and deserves better quality.

Without SC's help, MTU has continued to move forward to insure we are positioned to be able to provide copy protection for songs sold to run on our computer software players. Everyone who owns Hoster (and now Karaoke Pro 4.008 also) realizes that it is HIGHLY PROTECTED to run only on one computer. Further, we will one day be able to protect songs so they cannot be illegally duplicated or distributed... but be fully legal to backup in case of a hard drive failure. We have several Karaoke Manufacturers interested in distributing their songs for Hoster in .kma file format... without copy protection.

Why does SC now fund KAPPA, after driving Joe Senter out of business, after selling him SPIN? Joe is a licensed Private Investigator who has now returned to Germany where he practices his professional trade.

Why doesn't KAPPA quote the exact laws that state clearly on their web site that a legally purchased disc cannot be backed up?

Why doesn't KAPA list any court cases where they have successfully prosecuted a paying client who is using a copy of their purchased SC discs in their show?

Why indeed! What company would EVER persecute a paying client who is using common sense to protect his/her investment? What Judge would ever hear such nonsense before the court? Do you not recognize the Fear Tactics being used here? Does it make a grain of sense to you? If not, then get on with your lives and your profession!

Many of you know first hand about the quality of SC's manufactured discs, both as to the blank CDR quality and the silkscreening quality. There are numerous references from SC customers in these Forums. Suffice it to say, SC has a vested financial interest in you not making quality backup copies of their product. Until recently, they charged $50 for a replacement disc when a new one was only $30! This brought them a goodly income over the years. Make your own judgements why KAPA holds the position they do interpreting the law the way SC wants to. Joe Senter used to prosecute true bootleggers before the US Court system. Whose statements and background interests make more sense to you?

We have studied the law and cannot find where it is expressly forbidden in the USA to use an archive copy in place of the original for commercial purposes. We have documented our research and links to the Copyright Office Law (http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm) so you can make your own determination with your lawyer.

SC would save their good name from further ill repute by switching to quality CDR blank media and using high quality silkscreening inks that will not flake off and destroy the discs they sell. Instead, they are shifting to using MediaCloq to protect their discs from being played on a computer, or being duplicated for archive purposes... or being imported into CAVS or Hoster for playback from a hard drive.

I personally have phoned and emailed the MediaCloq developers to try to work with them for insuring songs are protected and yet allow the songs to be imported into Hoster. They have never acknowledged my communications. It is clear they have no desire to work with MTU. Thus, we will use a different form of DRM (Digital Rights Management) to protect songs we distribute... and insure you CONTINUE to have the right to make a legal backup copy of your songs on your hard drive.

[gduns - with the Lord]

I just got a written statement from Christian at Priddis. He also said I could post what he wrote to me. I think they share our opinions, it's your music that you bought, now use it legally, just don't make multiple copies for multiple rigs if you only buy one copy.

Here's what Christian had to say:

Thanks for your concern. You can listen to our position on episode #5 of That’s Karaoke at http://www.thatskaraoke.com.

At Priddis we know that as consumers purchase our music, some may want to put the music on their Mac or PC computer and download it to a personal listening device or play at their workstation at work. Some consumers will use our music for competitions where it’s required to bring 2 copies of the music so they can successfully perform and have a smooth running contest. Some consumers may cut the music down to shorter lengths for their performance. We also understand that as a business owner, one wants to protect his assests. As a DJ, one would want to not only protect and insure their equipment but also their music library. Because of this struggle, there are many different strong feelings business owners, consumers and labels have.

We want our customers to use your music. If you’re a consumer that wants to upload a Priddis disc to a personal listening device such as an iPod, do it. If you need to sing in a competition and have to bring two copies to the show, do it. If you have to cut the music down to be in the contest, do it. Don’t, make copies for your friends. Don’t allow other people to download it off your computer. Don’t sell copies of it. Piracy in this form directly hurts the labels. Use your music, but have integrity with it and common sense.

If you’re a business that wants to protect your assets, and you feel you have to bring and play a backup copy, do it. Don’t make other copies for your other rigs. Don’t make copies and sell them to your customers. Once again, use your music, protect your assets, but have integrity and common sense. If you bought a set of tires for your business, you couldn’t copy them or use “backup” copies. I’m just trying to put it in perspective. However, we (Priddis) offer a scratch/breakage plan for your discs. If you scratch or break your discs, send in the disc and we’ll send you back a new one. No monthly premiums, just a bonus for our customers. If you’re more serious about protecting your assets, the National Association of Mobile Entertainers (N.A.M.E. - http://www.djkj.com/ ) offers protection for you, your gear, and your music. So there are safeguards out there for the DJ/KJ. Priddis has been on the forefront of karaoke technology, but never the forefront of the DJ business so our policies aren’t well known.

If I was going to recommend anything for a business, it would be find a program like Hoster (http://www.mtu.com/basics/karaoke-hoster.htm) and digitize all your karaoke music on a laptop or portable computer. They have great security features for both the label and consumer. And, you don’t have to make “backup” or “work” copies of your discs. I hope to see bigger and better things digitally in the near future.

Another little tidbit is there is a copyright law (section 108 I believe) that states if a phono-recording (audio recording, not a vinyl record) is out of print, it is legal to make an archive copy of it for archival, non-commercial purposes. I’ll let you decipher the meaning of that.

I hope this gives you a little direction. Good luck and thanks for your honest business. It helps keep us in business.

Christian
..............................................................................

I thought you guys might like a fresh perspective

[admin]

MTU ask IPJustice.org to research if making backup copies is legal, including copying to a hard drive. Read this post on their legal research results (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=25020). You'll be glad you did! :w

[sevekj]

Originally posted by admin
I personally was in meeting with the owners of SC approximately 3 years ago. This was in Derik Slep's office (President) with Kirk Slep (VP Marketing), Joe Senter (owner of SPIN), CM (SC Engineer) and one of my associates.

[snip]
[/B]

I rarely buy any SC music anymore.
I also hope no one else does either, I don't care how good their sound is. As long as they keep their prices up, sales to me will be down. And if they make it impossible to backup or play thru hoster they are definetly through with me. They are actually causing piracy to fllourish with their protectionism.
It is time they just creat a quality product and sell it at a fair price and let the chips fall where they may. They would do well to do like companies like Karaoke Bay, or Priddis and afew others which I have been actively looking at to totally replace my need to buy anything from SC in the future.

I am a contientious ethical KJ and I plan on following the law as it is intended, regardless of some marketers interpretation.

My Say,

Seve

[Alan Bingham]

Thanks for your quick replies, But I am still at a loss. I need to know what will convince SPIN and KAPA to allow this into our Business'...WITHOUT looking over my shoulder...even once.


I don't know why someone would want to join them, unless they owned a store selling CD+G, and then they were losing profits due to people copying disks and passing them around, if your not passing the disks around, you have nothing to fear.

It seems to me that this technology is the same as a player, sure, you could go back to a play and tote all those disks with you, or you can store the data on a hard drive and play.

I think when it comes down to it, no one is going to risk taking you to court over your show, its just not the big of deal in the reality of things, they would take MTU to court for producing the technology before they took the KJ to court, and neither is going to happen...its bad press for them.

:g

[Alan Bingham]

George,
I have never purchased a file from CAVS but I do own PlayCDG PE. I prefer to have the CDG because of the quality and I can rip from it later in another format in the future if need be.

S.P.I.N. LLC,
Can you give us your take on downloading CAVS file and not having proof of where it came from?

Anybody else out there who has purchased/ downloaded a CAVS karaoke file care to comment?

Steve

I download them, and then use their software to put them back onto disk in CD+G format (but you have to use another companies software to burn the file to disk), I take them to shows and sing them. If a KJ were to tell me that he/she couldn't play my disk, I'd leave and go else where.

Here in town I don't know of a KJ that would not allow the playing of a "non-manafactured" disk. :s

[SteveWalker]

Alan,

The other problem with downloading karaoke files is as a KJ you do not have the physical CDG to prove ownership or that the files are legal. How would you prove the files are legal if you download them from CAVS?

Steve

[mlepine]

Quote by Alan Bingham:
I download them, and then use their software to put them back onto disk in CD+G format (but you have to use another companies software to burn the file to disk), I take them to shows and sing them. If a KJ were to tell me that he/she couldn't play my disk, I'd leave and go else where.

Perfect example why Microstudio should at least be able to burn from a bin file :f
It's not necessary to be able to play the bin file but having such a great cdg player that can burn cdg disk why not be able to burn a file done with any other software :?

The exclusif cdg format (extension) that MTU uses is excellent but it limits you to be in your own world when the reality is, any other brand uses the bin extension so why not be able to burn those file with Micro instead of having to get a software from **** :?

Regards

[kedmison]

Before I found MTU I had briefly (Few months)used GoldenHawk. They use a .bin file. If I remeber correctly I had no trouble using Micro Studio to copy some old compilations discs using MS.

Kelly

[George]

MLEPINE SAID:

The exclusif cdg format (extension) that MTU uses is excellent but it limits you to be in your own world when the reality is, any other brand uses the bin extension

Not saying that MTU should not recognize other formats, but to say that CDG is an MTU exclusive format that limits them to their own little world, when the REALITY is that CDG format still dominates probably 95% of the commercial manufacturered Karaoke discs is a statement that's just not so.

George

[admin]

Perfect example why Microstudio should at least be able to burn from a bin file :f
It's not necessary to be able to play the bin file but having such a great cdg player that can burn cdg disk why not be able to burn a file done with any other software :?

The exclusif cdg format (extension) that MTU uses is excellent but it limits you to be in your own world when the reality is, any other brand uses the bin extension so why not be able to burn those file with Micro instead of having to get a software from **** :?

Regards

Mike, read this thread (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?t=3749) where I address from an engineering AND user viewpoint why MTU does not support the .bin format for playing or importing individual files. As a matter of fact, we DO USE the .bin extension when we duplicate an entire disc image.

The thread above proves the .bin extension is NOT... I repeat... NOT a stable filename extension. If it ONLY was used for one type of format, we would support it in a heartbeat. However... it is not.

Why do other companies support it (in addition to GoldenHawk who first used it)? Because they don't provide free support. IMHO, it is impossible to support the .bin extension, which can have multiple NON-CDG format files all using the .bin extension.

Furthermore, you can rename your .bin files, created with non-MTU programs, to .cdg.... IF... you know they are CDG karaoke disc track files. Microstudio will use them correctly. It is your choice.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF MTU CUSTOMERS... only use our software. They don't use other software that create .bin files in various formats that confuses them. In fact, MANY of our customers first used CDRWIN and abandoned it because it was too complex to use and understand. Microstudio is easy, fast, clear,and above all... safe to use without confusion.

Now, please drop your complaint on this issue. It is your choice to rename your .bin files or not... or better still, only use Microstudio for your CDG file processing. Many of our other customers would be in deep trouble if they could get any .bin file, with no knowledge of what format it is in, and try to write or play it as a .cdg file. :r

[Island Extreme]

It's real simple - you can use one copy for every system you have - since I have only one system this is easy -

Now here is the tricky part - I WANT YOU BIG TIMERS TO BE HONEST Here...

Now I've been reading these posts and everyone seems to be honest so you tell me - once you have achieved the level of success - EVERY ONE OF YOU IS GOING OUT AND PURCHASING AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF YOUR LIBRARY???

I'm getting started (for work but have been having parties for fun for 6 years now)
Now this would cost me about $5000 if I could even get a duplicate.

Now no way am I advocating STEALING the second copy although It must happen somewhere - Is there some way that you can pay the manufacturer something to duplicate it? Are there any other options for LEGALLY making a second system - I know it would cost some of you $20,000 to do this legally and where would you keep all the extra disks???

I guess I'm really thinking ahead and planning on being VERY successful to even think like this!!

Mahalo,
-Sean
Island Extreme Entertainment, Hawaii

[mlepine]

Admin,

Sorry but you got it all wrong!! First it's not a complaint but just saying that what do you do in the case of a purchase of a mp3+g done on the web that you wish to burn on a disk using Microstudio???

I'm not making a request for my self, beleive me I'm ok I just wish to help others who by accident didn't happen to purchase from MTU first and now they discover your great software but are stuck with the wrong extension :?

Regards

[admin]

I felt the last posts started by bdalton belonged in its own visible thread.

Click here to visit that thread (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?t=4251).

[gotrich]

I am kinda confused. Who is ASCPA and BIM. What is the point of paying them? Didnt you pay for the rights when you buy the CD? How do I contat these company's to be a member? Why pay them if they tell you you can't do what your doing? WHy don't they come after you? Doesn't the bar pay these people to have a Jukebox, band or DJ already? If we play 1 regualr song at full length ar we still KJ's or are we DJ's? Why on the CD does it say not legal unless played at full volume? What does that mean? Doesn't MTU have a lawyer in CA that has already went to court for us?

Sorry so many questions but these things are danced around in conversations.

:c

[mindonstrike]

"Sorry so many questions but these things are danced around in conversations."

It's because most of us have seen these topics discussed/debated to death on forums for years so it's assumed that everyone is on the page.

"I am kinda confused. Who is ASCPA and BIM. What is the point of paying them? Didnt you pay for the rights when you buy the CD? "
ASCAP & BMI collect royalties for songwriters and performers. You do not pay them, the venue you play at pays them, it covers all the music played there whether DJ, KJ or live bands the jukebox has it's own separate license. When you purchased the cd(g) you payed for the right to listen to it not play the songs in public.


"Why on the CD does it say not legal unless played at full volume? What does that mean? " I think I saw that on the Helluvadisk brand and I could be wrong on this but I believe they were trying to be humorous.

"Doesn't MTU have a lawyer in CA that has already went to court for us? "
I think what you are referring to is an attorney who researched the subject of making backup copies of cdg's and gave his professional opinion on the subject.

Hope that clarified things a bit for you.
Sam

[George]

Gotrich,

Here's a place to start. Let your fingers do the walking.....search and ye shall find.

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

George

[George]

Gotrich said:
Doesn't MTU have a lawyer in CA that has already went to court for us?

As an uninformed bystander I'd have to say no, no one has gone to court for us..

I'd hazard a guess that any legal counsel or actions that MTU has sought would be to determine the legality of the products they market, or to deter others from infringing on their copywrites..

They manufacture a product that if used for it's intent and purpose is legal. They cannot control how we, the end users will use those products.

If we question the legality of using an MTU product in any manner than outlined in their sales literature and product manuals, then we should seek our own legal counsel. That's our responsibility, not MTU's.

If we stick to using the products in a manner described by MTU, then there should be no question.

Admin has passed on any legal findings they have come up with on the forums to try to clear up some of these legal issues where their product use is concerned.

It all boils down to using the products for their published intent, and you should have no problems. At least that's the way I read it.

George

[danny_g]

Mike, read this thread (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?t=3749) where I address from an engineering AND user viewpoint why MTU does not support the .bin format for playing or importing individual files. As a matter of fact, we DO USE the .bin extension when we duplicate an entire disc image.

The thread above proves the .bin extension is NOT... I repeat... NOT a stable filename extension. If it ONLY was used for one type of format, we would support it in a heartbeat. However... it is not.

Why do other companies support it (in addition to GoldenHawk who first used it)? Because they don't provide free support. IMHO, it is impossible to support the .bin extension, which can have multiple NON-CDG format files all using the .bin extension.

Furthermore, you can rename your .bin files, created with non-MTU programs, to .cdg.... IF... you know they are CDG karaoke disc track files. Microstudio will use them correctly. It is your choice.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF MTU CUSTOMERS... only use our software. They don't use other software that create .bin files in various formats that confuses them. In fact, MANY of our customers first used CDRWIN and abandoned it because it was too complex to use and understand. Microstudio is easy, fast, clear,and above all... safe to use without confusion.

Now, please drop your complaint on this issue. It is your choice to rename your .bin files or not... or better still, only use Microstudio for your CDG file processing. Many of our other customers would be in deep trouble if they could get any .bin file, with no knowledge of what format it is in, and try to write or play it as a .cdg file. :r
I totaly support Mtu's stance with one addition to it. The ability to check before burning the quality of the import makes Microstudio by far the better program as well as it's ease of use which are the two reasons I went with microstuio in the first place. Yes I know I haven't kept up with updates of the software but my financial attention has been elsewhere. by January I should be back on track in that regards. I am still considering getting hoster but haven't gotten around to it.