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  #21  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:27 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

Some times I think you can over kill. Too much of the same entertainment night after night in the same bar. Or may just spread the same crowd over different nights. Not bring in more revenue over the week. So although Bryant would be getting an extra nights pay, the bar owner would be down.



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  #22  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:28 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Originally Posted by billyo View Post
this is just for the sake of conversation, my question is why would there be a conflict of interest? lets say i work for Ford. Co. assembly line installing break lines, and on my days off i work for GM doing the same thing, are you teling me that since i work for GM on my days off you'll cut my pay, if i were the Ford Co. i will ask you to work on your days off, same pay,no overtime pay,and i'll get more break work done..thats what i'm saying if bar#1 doesnt want Bryant to do those days in bar#2, Bryant should ask to have Thurs.added to his tue/sun gig.iIf Bryant is bringing in more people on tue/sun gig, then he might have the same people on thur. that means more revenue on those days.for bar #1
Yup, that's sort of like the way it is. The ppl I bring in on Sun/Tue are karaoke ppl only, which is the only place in town that offers anything on those nights to do. He is only concerned about those same ppl will have another place to spend their money doing the same thing on another night (even if the other night was at his place), so it spreads out the karaoke crowds money among three nights (instead of two). I'm trying to understand if his rationale makes a lot of sense, or just a little sense, or any at all. I had asked him last year about adding a third karaoke night on thurs. His response was "It might be too much of a good thing." Sort of saying it is just spreading out two nights over three.
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  #23  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:30 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Originally Posted by Roy Dennis View Post
Some times I think you can over kill. Too much of the same entertainment night after night in the same bar. Or may just spread the same crowd over different nights. Not bring in more revenue over the week. So although Bryant would be getting an extra nights pay, the bar owner would be down.



Roy.

Oh, I read this after the response below. That's exactly what the owner is thinking, I believe.
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  #24  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:31 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

We have been through the worst economic times that I can remember. Every chance you have to keep ahead of the competition has become even more important. The bar owner that you are working for is painfully aware of the market in his area. I am sure that he is looking to both keeping a death grip on whatever market share he has, and looking at cutting expenses. This situation is making him look at both. If he sees that he is losing customers on his karaoke nights, he has to make a choice. Either increase business, or cut expenses. I think he is just hedging his bets by having an initial conversation. That is why I agreed with Joe on forcing the issue now. Waiting to see what happens to business is only a negative for you Bryant. If you can hammer out the outcome before he is able to get enough data to beat you with, it can only help your situation.

Be honest with him, and ask the same from him. It is not bad of you to be looking to increase your own income. He is always looking for the same. Just tell him that while you don't want to jeopardize the great long term relationship you have had with him, he can't blame you for looking at increasing your own business.
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  #25  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:44 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Far be it from me to give advice of this type. But i have been at my present club 6 years, and see no chance of leaving any time soon. With that being said, out of loyalty, i personally wouldn't dream of taking a job down the street. My off night or not. I know some guys are into this for the money and money only. But something i personally wouldn't do. I work yard parties, graduations, weddings, that type of thing on my off nights. But i'd never think of giving my own club competition. And that is actually what you're doing.

I bet it is spreading the profits of your regular bar a little thin. This apparently bothers your boss of 5 years. If thats the case, don't worry about who benefits, dump the second job, and show loyalty in return, to the guy who showed you loyalty for 5 years. Hip hop night or not. He is still running entertainment those nights. Lets hope he just doesn't decide to boost his hip hop night by cutting back on karaoke to do it. Good luck whatever you decide.

True, and nice comments here, Musicman. Although I also started two other bars in town 5 years ago, all with slightly different clientele though. I work regularly at three different places, all started about 5 years ago. As a result, I said I would retire from my full time job (good pay, with all free benefits, medical, dental, etc) if I could find a Thursday night stay. I had been off and on for a while at another place on Thursdays. Now this brand new bar just seems to be copying a lot of stuff from bar #1 and the owner seems concerned. let me say a bit more about these two places. bar #1 is also a 7 day/16 hr per day restauraunt with a bar upstairs and downstairs. Downstairs DJ on thurs./Fri./sat...Upstairs is full restauraunt and bar with musicians during the week and bands on Fri. and Sat. (On fri. he just started a cem free DJ upstairs, however). The owner owns the building and rents apartments above as well. He is completely established.


The new bar just opened up and is only a bar, no food, no TV yet above the bar, only dance floor and bar. Is only open from 9 to 1 on Thurs. fri. and sat., They rent the building, and have just remodeled that same building. The two owners are young and sort of new in the business. Their fridays are slow now, their thurs were even slower when they first started. Karaoke was an after thought as an idea to get something going on Thursday's a little better. the place has only been open since the first of the year.


Also, bar #1 owner doen't expect me to NOT work anywhere else, he had never said that. It's more of a copycat thing now with this new club that bugs him.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 06:48 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Yup, that's sort of like the way it is. The ppl I bring in on Sun/Tue are karaoke ppl only, which is the only place in town that offers anything on those nights to do. He is only concerned about those same ppl will have another place to spend their money doing the same thing on another night (even if the other night was at his place), so it spreads out the karaoke crowds money among three nights (instead of two). I'm trying to understand if his rationale makes a lot of sense, or just a little sense, or any at all. I had asked him last year about adding a third karaoke night on thurs. His response was "It might be too much of a good thing." Sort of saying it is just spreading out two nights over three.

the only think i could think of which is he's thinking about the business side of it, " competition ", but if he's got hip-hop nights on thu. and he's doing good, what was he worried about, do these people ( hip-hop crowd ) goes to your sun/tue. show? and your sun/tue crowd goes to hip-hop nights? .if they do then maybe he's got something to worry about, it's true having 3 days of karaoke seems to be overkill, i used to do 4 days Thu-Sat. ( 9p-1a ) Sun (5p-9p ), Fri-Sat. are fine, but the rest of the day is kinda of dead. but if your confidence that you can bring in the same people or more maybe you can talk him in adding thu. show, that way he can have both crowds on Thu.and let go of the other one.
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  #27  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:50 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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I agree with Musicman51, I think you are rather fortunate to have had a 2 nights a week for 5 years at the same establishment.
It is perfectly alright to work else ware but not if it is in direct competition with your regular gig.
Just my opinion.

Roy.
But I've also had 4 nights a week at three different places for the same five years. All these places are aware of the others as well. Just adding a Thursday as part of my retirement income.

Your rationale, as I understand it, would mean that a DJ could, and would, only work at one place, i.e., all bars are competition for all other bars at some point.

Also, let's remember that bar #1 has several things going on at his place on Thurs. nights, upstairs band or DJ, musician during supper hours, hiphop DJ downstairs, and full resauraunt and two bars open till 1 am. I am not competing with THOSE customers at all. Again, as i've stated before, it's the thinning out of my regulars over three nights and him thinking that I will be worth less, even though it is well known to him, the bartenders, and ALL the patrons that go On Sun. and Tue. that I do WAY more than other KJ's in the area do, and I do WAY more there than I do at other places too, e.g., make sure all customers can sing any song they've ever requested, take pictures, show slide shows over three large screens, interact with them (many patrons often leave me "unsolicited" tips in my hand), dance music with videos all by request in between singers on slow nights (not many slow lately though).
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  #28  
Old March 9th, 2010, 06:54 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

The only point I see not being brought up here is if you don't so it he (Bar #2) will get someone else. So Bar #1 will likely see some loss of business anyway especially if Bar #2 decides to compete on the same nights you do. We have this problem with a new bar down the street from the VFW we play at. I already told the other owner I wasn't interested....besides she couldn't afford me . I hate having to move my equipment.
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  #29  
Old March 9th, 2010, 07:06 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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The only point I see not being brought up here is if you don't so it he (Bar #2) will get someone else. So Bar #1 will likely see some loss of business anyway especially if Bar #2 decides to compete on the same nights you do. We have this problem with a new bar down the street from the VFW we play at. I already told the other owner I wasn't interested....besides she couldn't afford me . I hate having to move my equipment.
i had the same experienced, i was offered a job the same nights i used to play at..there are 3 things i wouldn't do, i wont take a job if i'm doing one the same nights, no matter how much, i wont undercut nobody, especially if thats how they make their living, and i wont take a job if the mgmt. is not happy with the one playing there, especially if it's a kj friend. the only time i'll do karaoke is when i'm not doing any or places that wanted to start karaoke, the rest i always recommend other kj who does it for a living.
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  #30  
Old March 9th, 2010, 07:16 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

Good point Dale. The other point I think Bryant eluded to was the feeling that the new bar wasn't in it for the long haul. It would be a good gesture to maybe cement your relationship with Bar #1, and get a little bump in pay while your at it.
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  #31  
Old March 9th, 2010, 11:03 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

Hi billyo

The conflict was stated in an indirect way by the proprietor to Bryant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryant View Post
He goes on to say that he thinks now that there is another place for his Sunday and Tuesday crowds to attend the same thing on Thursday's down the street, that it spreads out the wealth a little thin, as some of his crowd may choose to go down the road on Thursdays instead of coming to his bar #1 on Sundays or Tuesdays, therefore, possibly shringking his take a little. Sort of "spreading things out too thin", and it would be only fair that if this being the case, that I should be paid a little bit less at his place (bar #1). Let's see how it all plays out, he says, and in the future we may have to have another conversation and talk about this.
What is going on here, and have you guys run into this sorta thing at all? What would you suggest I might say to him if we ever do have "that other conversation"?
Lets look at this in a different way and suppose Bryant doesn't get a deal with bar #1 and everything goes good at Bar #2 and his people go there to see Bryant which cuts into the profit of bar #1, what kind of eyes will see Bryant then?

Remember it's only one night.

And yes just like you I think Bryant should get compensation by Bar #1 and Bryant should give an opportunity to an offer.

Good Luck,
Joe....
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  #32  
Old March 10th, 2010, 06:10 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

I still don't see the conflict of interest, Bar #1 on this particular night is a Hip Hop night - nothing to do with karaoke. Bar #2 is a karaoke night. 9 out of 10 times, the crowds are not intertwined enough to make a difference - unless the hip hop crowd prefer karaoke and are going to bar #2 to sing - in which bar#1 needs to look at that if there is a draw with their 'hip hop crowd' frequenting bar #2 on that night instead of staying at bar #1 on hip hop night - must be saying something like MAYBE they should be offering more karaoke nights instead of hip hop nights! I think this is just an excuse for bar #1 to try to pay a lower amount, nothing more. Bryant already said it wasn't that busy on the Thursday nights in bar#2. How many of the bar #1 regulars are showing up to bar #2 that would normally be at bar#1 for hip hop night?
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  #33  
Old March 10th, 2010, 09:41 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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I still don't see the conflict of interest, Bar #1 on this particular night is a Hip Hop night - nothing to do with karaoke. Bar #2 is a karaoke night. 9 out of 10 times, the crowds are not intertwined enough to make a difference - unless the hip hop crowd prefer karaoke and are going to bar #2 to sing - in which bar#1 needs to look at that if there is a draw with their 'hip hop crowd' frequenting bar #2 on that night instead of staying at bar #1 on hip hop night - must be saying something like MAYBE they should be offering more karaoke nights instead of hip hop nights! I think this is just an excuse for bar #1 to try to pay a lower amount, nothing more. Bryant already said it wasn't that busy on the Thursday nights in bar#2. How many of the bar #1 regulars are showing up to bar #2 that would normally be at bar#1 for hip hop night?

You may be absolutely right Lon. Last night, for some reason, was our best Tuesday for quite some time (standing room only)..and there were only two ppl in that crowd that was there and ALSO at the new bar #2 last Thursday...one was the bar #2 bartender, and the other was there last night for 4 hours spending money while only there at bar #2 for several minutes just to check it out. So far I see no data to support bar owner #1's idea about losing ppl because of his "spreading out too thin karaoke" theory.

Dale's thought about bar #1 even gaining some new clientele from bar #2 eventually checking out bar #1 on Sun/Tue may hold up as well.

It's just startin' to p--s me off that the bar owner even mentioned the fact that "we may have to drop your rates a lil just to be fair". (fair to who, and why)?

This thread is making me feel better about the whole thing though.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 09:43 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Hi billyo

The conflict was stated in an indirect way by the proprietor to Bryant.



Lets look at this in a different way and suppose Bryant doesn't get a deal with bar #1 and everything goes good at Bar #2 and his people go there to see Bryant which cuts into the profit of bar #1, what kind of eyes will see Bryant then?

Remember it's only one night.

And yes just like you I think Bryant should get compensation by Bar #1 and Bryant should give an opportunity to an offer.

Good Luck,
Joe....
This is exactly what he said he'll be keeping his ears and eyes open to.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 09:46 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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Good point Dale. The other point I think Bryant eluded to was the feeling that the new bar wasn't in it for the long haul. It would be a good gesture to maybe cement your relationship with Bar #1, and get a little bump in pay while your at it.

I woud love to get that bump in pay, but I think the owner is looking at this thing as a way to "bump down" the pay.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 09:51 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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The only point I see not being brought up here is if you don't so it he (Bar #2) will get someone else. So Bar #1 will likely see some loss of business anyway especially if Bar #2 decides to compete on the same nights you do. We have this problem with a new bar down the street from the VFW we play at. I already told the other owner I wasn't interested....besides she couldn't afford me . I hate having to move my equipment.
Exactly how I seem to look at this, too, Dale.

Actually bar #2 had been looking at someone else a while back (before they opened). It was one of those guys using another program and an E-Bay bought HD w/75,000 songs he was bragging about. Once a regular of mine I spoke about in a previous forum, if any of you recall. I didn't want to see his butt anywhere in this area (he lives out of town as it is), so I actually approached bar #2 a while back on this gig, for that reason, thinking there was absolutely no harm to bar #1 on his already packed house hiphop Thursday downstairs.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 11:22 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

If you know Bar #2 owner well enough I would show him the stuff on the lawsuits going on now with Sound Choice and point out that what that guy has is exactly what they are looking for in these lawsuits. Then if you know anyone else in the area who does shows (if you decide not to take the job) you could recommend them.
A thought just hit me. Even if Bar #1 decides he wants to lower your pay by adding an additional night at Bar #2 I figure you are still farther ahead then without it.
As far as being in it for the long haul, as long as Bar #2 can make enough to keep it going for a year or two, then it will probably be there for a while. As far as Bar #2 copying what Bar #1 is doing, I would do the same thing. Why at this early stage try something new if this already works in an established place. Common business practice.
AT least your Bar #2 had enough sense to have enough capital for entertainment. The lady running our #2 pout all her seed money into remodeling and had nothing left for entertainment to draw in the crowds. She had one KJ in for a while that all they were working for was tips and doing karaoke 2 nights a week. They quickly tired of that and quit.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

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As far as Bar #2 copying what Bar #1 is doing, I would do the same thing. Why at this early stage try something new if this already works in an established place. Common business practice.
Man, I hate you guys

I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me, but Dale is right. If you go fishing and see someone pulling in fish as fast as they can cast, it is advisable to fish the same place AND use the same bait.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 11:39 AM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. barowner doesn't seem to like the idea

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Originally Posted by ddouglass View Post
If you know Bar #2 owner well enough I would show him the stuff on the lawsuits going on now with Sound Choice and point out that what that guy has is exactly what they are looking for in these lawsuits. Then if you know anyone else in the area who does shows (if you decide not to take the job) you could recommend them.
A thought just hit me. Even if Bar #1 decides he wants to lower your pay by adding an additional night at Bar #2 I figure you are still farther ahead then without it.
As far as being in it for the long haul, as long as Bar #2 can make enough to keep it going for a year or two, then it will probably be there for a while. As far as Bar #2 copying what Bar #1 is doing, I would do the same thing. Why at this early stage try something new if this already works in an established place. Common business practice.
AT least your Bar #2 had enough sense to have enough capital for entertainment. The lady running our #2 pout all her seed money into remodeling and had nothing left for entertainment to draw in the crowds. She had one KJ in for a while that all they were working for was tips and doing karaoke 2 nights a week. They quickly tired of that and quit.

Wow!

I've already started bar #2 about three weeks ago, after that third week was when bar #1 owner brought up the thing about "spreading too thin".

You're right about keeping both gigs and still being ahead of the game for now. It's just gonna leave that "sour taste" in my mouth about this bar #1 owner pulling this on me while all the time he knows I work hard to bring him in business and always have promoted that place well.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 01:15 PM
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Re: New place to gig on Thursday, but Sun/Tue. bar owner doesn't seem to like the ide

We had a Honda motorcycle dealership in a town a few miles south of me. One of the fella's who worked there as a machanic for about 10 years or so if memory serves me right, went out and purchased a new Harley motorcycle. Parked it in the employee parking lot. The boss fired him. The fella took the dealership to court, and lost. Did he have a right to purchase a new harley, and even drive it to work? i suppose he did. It's not always a matter of law, or what you should be able to do, or not do. It's often times a matter of what's the right thing to do, and common sense.

Don't know your relationship with the bar you've worked for for going on 5 years. But there are just too many "suppose i" and "what if's", in the examples given here. Hard feelings are almost impossible for club owners to get over. I have to be very very careful in my little club up here. I can get alot of.. you played so & so's yard party, but you won't do mine? why not? i have to be very careful. So if you feel comfortable performing down the street at another bar on a different night, and see nothing wrong with it..go fur it. But, as for myself, and myself only. I think it's a bad idea.
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