Interesting Perspective

[MaddMatt]

All:

I am an entreprenuer who has started a couple of businesses in the past. I hit a local bar with karoake every Thursday and am considering starting this business. So I know just enough about business and Karaoke to make me dangerous

After reading a number of messages in a number of forums and threads I have had a number of insights.

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1> Every KJ I have seen, failed to meet expectations in one area: throughput. Performers can never sing enough. I realize that you hate standing behind a table all night but when it takes a couple of minutes between songs, we notice. This was why I looked into this business.... I figured I could do it faster. And faster means happier customers and happier customers mean happier bars.

2> Don't drink. A boss at your full time job won't let you drink while you work, why would you do it for your own business? Time spent at the bar is time wasted.

3> Run your equipment. I have seen KJ's in the past who have regulars switch off manning the equipment.

4>You are not the entertainment. KJ's are there to keep things moving. Singing throughout the night is not why you are there. Performers want to be the center of attention, don't take that away from them

5> Don't skimp on songs. I try to do at least one new song a week and a bigger book may take longer to get thru but sooner or later I will find what I want. For what it costs in paper and ink, print up new songbooks every couple of months. I hate having to look in a bunch of places for a song. Is it under artist name? Song Title? New Country hits March? New Country Hits April? geez..

6> Earn your money. When the owner sees you doing any of the above he wonders why he brought you in. Make sure he/she sees you working hard for your money.

7> Remember that every night someone is in the audience checking out your business. You start getting sloppy and you are begging someone like me to compete. I may not stay in the business but any competition brings prices down and dilutes the market.

8> I know you have been doing this for years and you know everything there is to know about the business but when someone offers up a suggestion, actually consider it. Even better write it down and look at it the next day. Even though you know all there is to know about Karaoke, we are your customers and trying to accomodate them might be wise.

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Just a couple of insights from years of Karaoke'ing. In case he is reading this, the current KJ I see all the time is probably the best locally and most of the above does NOT apply to him

[Flipeoke]

This is my shortened edited version, my original was much longer. But beware, this one is still quite long:

Where do I begin:

First of all while this may apply to the KJs in your local area, this does not apply to everyone here.

I have been in the karaoke business going on 10 years now. While I do not claim to be the best, I do get many compliments, and thank yous.

Like you said in your post: You know just enough to be dangerous.

What amazes me is that you are a new board member here, and the first thing you post is how we are all running our business wrong. With this mentality and stereotyping, you will not last long in this business. If you think all KJ's are the same think again. If you think all singers are the same, think again.

1. Faster is Better:
EVERY KJ WILL FAIL TO MEET SOMEONE'S EXPECTATIONS ON THROUGHPUT! ALWAYS! No matter what you do and how fast you run the show, there will ALWAYS be someone who feels he/she did not get to sing enough. It happens.

2. Don't Drink:
Good point. Don't drink so much that it impairs your show. Excessive drinking clouds your judgement, slows your reflexes and impairs your speech. All of which you need to run a good show.

3. Run the equipment:
Good point, you will never see me allow anyone use my equipment. I paid for it I will run it. Perhaps the KJ you are refering to is employed by someone who paid for the equipment , and he couldn't care less about how the show goes, or the equipment.

4. You are not the entertainment:
Karaoke (and KJ'ing) IS about entertainment. And despite what you think you are the entertainment. And I'm not talking about singing here.

5. Don't skimp on songs:
Agree. Have a large variety of songs, but not so large, that the quality suffers because of it. I could easily have double the amount of songs in my library, if I had gone with cheaper quality. But I, like many other good KJs do their homework. I try out songs before I get the discs. I listen to the different versions of a song and get the best version, sometimes I get 4 or 5 discs for songs I could find on 1 of those discs, why? QUALITY. More is not always better.

6. Earn your money:
Does this require a response?

7. Remember every night blah blah blah...
Why on earth, if you want to get into the business, would you want to bring prices down and dilute the market? Makes no sense to me. First of all I don't do this to make a profit, I do this because I enjoy it. When I stop enjoying it, I will sell you all my equipment. I guarantee you will not be able to undercut the good KJs and stay in business. (Unless you live in an area where there are no good quality KJs which may be the case judgeing from your post.) It is the KJs that undercut and cannot provide the services that owners stay away from.
As for competition....Bring it.

8. Write down sugestions and consider them:
I do not know, nor claim to know everything there is to know about karaoke. I am not, nor do I claim to be the best. I do consider suggestions, as do most of the good KJs. More often than not, if it gets sugested, I have tried it and explain to them why it wouldn't/doesn't work. I bring up points that they haven't thought of, and more often than not they agree.

For the most part what you say is true, however, KJ'ing is not as easy as it seems, do not stereotype everyone, and most of all, while you can try to please everyone, you will not. Oh and unless you have seen everyone of us at a show, do not assume you can do a better job. Good luck in your endeavor.

Flip

P.S. On a side note, what were these other business you started? Are they still around, do you still own them? I believe Karaoke to be a very personal job, take the personality out of it and you take the fun out of it.

[George]

This may surprise some as active as I am on these forums, but I not only am not a KJ, but have never been in a Karaoke club, and have no intentions of doing so. I'm passionate about music, and for five years have been a member of a private Karaoke club that meets regularly to sing and have fun doing it.

All that out of the way I'll say that I enjoy "hanging out" with the many KJ's I've come to know and like here on these forums. I have learned one thing from you guys and gals these past two years that I think MADDMATT missed when doing his research, or I may have gotten the wrong impression reading his post.

Anybody going into the KJ business motivated by the prospect of making a buck because it looks lucrative from the patron's vantage point, best stay on that side of the stage.

George

[MaddMatt]

Flip:

I'm sory, I did not mean to start a firestorm here and didn't come on trying to tell everyone how to run their business. As the thread indicated, I felt I had an interesting perespective. One with points you may not have heard before. I have seen about 25-30 KJ busineses throughout the country and the list I compiled were things that I noticed about many of them. This was not a personal attack but hopefuly a different perspective.

While I don't know everything about this business, I have seen and read enough to know that the majority of KJ's don't treat it like a business and more like a good time and a night out and the 8 points reflected that.

I appreciate your feedback and that you agreed with a majority of what I had to say (5 out of 8 ain't bad). Hopefully some KJ's will be open to seeing some of themselves in those points and change for the better.

I won't make this post longer by going point by point and responding. I am a businessman who has started and sold a number of businesses, one of which I am still operating. I am naturally interested in operations and in making things better, more effecient and profitable. If you took my post personally, maybe it's because some of it rings true... maybe not.

One point I will contest because I think it was misinterpreted. Karaoke is great entertainment but when the Kj sings regularly in the rotation, takes too much time between songs because he is joking with the crowd or spends too much time socializing and too little on the business at hand, the patrons don't like it. You are right that nobody thinks the KJ goes fast enough. So why take more time between songs other than to thank the last person and introduce the next one? if it is done pleasantly then everyone will be happy

I caught your point that this was my first post. Without knowing any background, though, you assumed I was naive. I have read hundreds of posts on these boards over various topics and threads. I became well acquainted with the business from yours and other KJ's experience here, in discussions with operators onsite as well as my own experiences as a patron.

I'm sorry you read it as an attack on your business. If anyone else who reads this thread takes it personally, I'll apologize in advance to you. These were points that would make every business better if we weren't so quick to dismiss them.

I look forward to contributing to further discussions.

[Flipeoke]

I promise to keep this one shorter....

Maybe I did take it a bit personal, but what really bugs me (and this is not aimed at you), is misinformed people that come up to me and tell me how I should run my business, and saying that they can do better. To which I usually reply "Put together a system and discs, and a proposal to the owner and if he decides to go with you, so be it."

As you put it:
"I may not stay in the business but any competition brings prices down and dilutes the market. "

IMO that is the wrong attitude. Basically, it says to me: "Hey, I really don't give a **** whether I succeed or not, but I sure as hell can undercut your prices." Not the best business model, you being a business-person, should recognize this.

But mostly, It is your arrogance that really annoys me...
"These were points that would make every business better if we weren't so quick to dismiss them."
You say this as if it were fact, when it is only your opinion. Keep it as such and don't try to force it down my throat. I think after 10 years in one location, I know what my customers do and do not like.

Flip

[jaddams]

You were right George,

Good controversies do increase traffic. I am reading right along.

Regards,

Jon

[George]

Sure does, Jon. I picked up on it quite some time back.
This one's already had 46 hits..Amazing how it gets around the grapevine.

Take Care,

George

[flipper]

MaddMatt

I sing regularly in almost every rotation. My primary reasons for doing this are:

1. I begin every rotation with a Song - this visually cues the singers as to where the rotation begins and ends. Not everyone will hear me say that the rotation has ended, but if they see hear me singing a song they know that the rotation is starting over. In fact if I skip over myself it really screws up some of my regulars, they seem to find comfort in knowing where they are at in the rotation. It gives them some idea of how long it will be before they sing again. Perhaps they want to play a game of pool or play some video poker etc.

2. This gives me an opportunity to spice up the rotation a bit if the last 7-10 songs were country ballads. I will put a fast song up for myself to sing to get the folks dancing and drinking. This is called entertaining your customers. We have alot of listeners in our audience as well, and they like to have fun too. This way they can participate in the show without singing.

3. I have some customers who like to sing Duets with me so I reserve my turn to sing. This accomplishes two things, it starts the rotation over, and entertains the singers request.

You were looking for some input!

That's My 2 cents

[MaddMatt]

Flip et al:

Thanks for the feedback. I am finding your insight very informative.

We keep coming back to the "dilute the market" statement and maybe I didn't state that whole thing well enough. The point I was trying to make was that if the Kj does a good solid job, I shouldn't be able to think that I can do it better. I was trying to motivate people to do a consistently good job so people won't come into the market and dilute it while driving prices down. I se that in the DJ business where anybody with some CD's and loud sound system thinks they can DJ. They bring the prices down for everybody and make it harder on the good operators.

As for my arrogance, I'm sorry. Rereading my posts, maybe it does come off that way. On the other hand, you agreed completely with 5 of the 8 points and we are close on 1 or 2 more so I can't be too far off

As for singing in every rotation, I still don't quite understand that. If the Kj sings once in every rotation, how is that different than if anyone else takes that spot. Patrons recognize who has sung and where in the order they are. Simply saying who is up on deck can help give people a 3-5 minute warning. I do agree though that spicing it up if it is warranted is a great idea if the songs start to bring people down and a duet once in a while never hurts. I guess anything taken to extremes can be bad.

After clarifying my remarks, I stand by what I said. My motives for this are completely selfless, I have nothing to gain. I just want to see people succeed in their businesses and when they treat it like some fun on the weekend instead of a business, it shows. And I am sure there are other people like me that are in your audiences and see some kinks and think they could do it better. If the job is well done, with good equipment, then people won't even spend the mental energy trying to make it better. Few people want to start a business so they can be bottm feeders, they start a business because they think they can be the best.

After a number of emails (even some supportive ones ) I think taking a step back and analyzing what we do as business people and why we do it is a good thing. Just because it's been done that way for years is not an excuse.

Thanks for keeping the conversation going. I look forward to your repsonses and I am glad that this is entertaining for the rest of you

[MaddMatt]

I know it is pathetic to reply to my own post, but here goes

The thing I said about considering patrons opinions and writing them down was a personal point that affected my current business.

I had my customers offering up suggestions at every event. Most of the ideas I had already tried and they didn't work for one reason or another. At one event, a customer told an employee a suggestion instead of me. This employee wrote it down and dropped it in the till. He also told me about it later and I dismissed it as I had tried it before.

The next day I found the note and revisited the idea (without having to defend myself to a customer or employee on why I do what I do). Sure enough it had some merit and after some tweaking it actually worked. It has made my business better.

Since then when people offer suggestions, I hand them a pad and ask them to write them down. That way I can give it all the attention it deserves which is tough in the middle of an event. If they are sincere they write it down or I do it for them. If they just wanted to make conversation, they managed to do that too. Either way I look good to the customer and maybe I get some good ideas out of it for free!

When people offer suggestions I take it personally too. Who is this person to think they can do it better? Then I realize that there is nothing in it for them and alot in it for me. This person could take his ideas and start his/her own business and be my competition. If I handle it well, I eliminate that threat while getting a gem once in a while. I feel better about it and so do they.

its a win-win opportunity

[Flipeoke]

Well, I thought I'd give it a try to put this to rest:

This is not a I'm right, you're wrong situation. What works for me at my shows, might not work for you. You have to realize that different areas cater to different types of people, and all people are different. I try to please as many people as I can as often as I can without alienating others. I have the type of personality, which allows me a little more flexability in my show. You will never satisfy everyone's need to sing, realize this, but if you entertain well, and they all enjoy themselves, it does not matter as much. Yes, you might loose that one "karaoke diva" who is so upset he did not get to sing every song from "Phantom of the Opera" or some other broadway show but so be it.

I will part company with a quick story:

A competitor (and good aquaintence) of mine decided to put on a Large karaoke event. This man is an exceptional business man, owns a number of businesses, and also KJs. It was a contest to find the best karaoke singer of the area. And in doing so the best karaoke club. Each club who wanted to participate could sponsor up to 5 singers. There would be a maximum of 50 singers. Tickets were sold at $50.00 each, and included open bar, dinner, etc... Judges were local radio celebrities and a couple record producers. Someone from my club came in third, 2 people from the host club (the club this exceptional businessman KJs at) came in first and second. The winner was the "karaoke diva" who came to my show a couple of times who found out he did not get to sing enough. Well, it came time for the winner to pick the best Karaoke Bar. He said on the mic he has had the best time at my show, and considered it the best karaoke bar, but it would be wrong not to choose the bar that sponsered him in this event.

Hey, you win some you lose some. But we all had fun!

Flip

[MaddMatt]

Flip:

Thanks for the great story. I agree that like any business, it depends on your location and clientelle.

I appreciated the insights and keep them coming!

[flipper]

Matt

You Said:

"I hit a local bar with karoake every Thursday and am considering starting this business. So I know just enough about business and Karaoke to make me dangerous"

I think your intentions are quite honorable with regard to thoughts about what would make a good KJ and great show. I think that you need to experience what it actually is like to run a Karaoke Show and do it for 6months to a 1 year before you can comfortably take a stand on issues you have posted in this forum.

Yes! there are KJ's out there that do not have a clue what makes a good show, and usually they do not last very long. Those types are a dime a dozen. But there are alot of really great KJ's that have an excellent following and are very entertaining. They have learned by trial and error over a long period time what works for them in their market and their venue. Perhaps you should not only look for what is wrong in a show, but look for what they are doing right as well. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Learn from both and apply them in "your own show"

My advise is for you to get some actual experience running a karaoke show as a KJ. Then you may have a completely different perspective on what does and does not work. Make it an experiment if you will... It will be an "eye opener" for sure. A low cost way to do this is to become a fill in KJ for one of the local shows a couple of nights a month.

Right now your ideas are working in a vaccum, where all conditions are ideal. It is only when you subject them to real conditions and events coupled with your own strengths and weaknesses that you will begin to see how they actually work. I have had many thoughts similar to yours prior to becoming a KJ and now reflecting back, some have been useful and many have not.

I challenge you to learn this business first hand, If you really like karaoke and working with people it can be very rewarding

Good Luck

[George]

Been reading with interest, and have come to the conclusion that the KJ doesn't really have that much choice. It's either be part entertainer/ part host, or crash and burn, and here's why I say that.

The public expects a DJ to be amusing, witty, and entertaining, while at the same time keeping the show on pace. That's all the public has ever known from DJ's.

I don't believe the public makes the distinction between DJ's and KJ's.

I propose that the public expects the same from a KJ, and it won't matter a fig what brand CDG's, what amplification system, what computer based or conventional player system is used to run the show, if the KJ doesn't strike the balance between entertaining and hosting that their particular audience demands, forget it.

Just some thoughts from an impartial "outsider"

George

[flipper]

Good Observation George!

For many of my customers, they could care less what the disc brand is as long as you have their song. Many folks really can't tell the difference between one system or the other, and for the most part it's not an issue.

Of course there are exceptions, and those folks are more hard core karaoke types. They really appreciate music that is mixed and the Microphone levels and effects adjusted just right. They also look for the higher quality discs. Just add atmosphere and that keeps them coming back every week. They represent probably 40% of my crowd.

The 60% are there to have a good time and are content with status quo. I try to give them the best of both worlds.

Funny how it works out but these folks (60%'ers) are the ones
who generate the most revenue for the clubs that I work with. They spend the dollars which keeps the club owners happy and my business going.

Flipper

[MaddMatt]

Guys:

Thanks for the insights. I already made a couple of phone calls and will be helping out a KJ this week. If all goes well, I can start hosting soon. I am sure it will be an eye opener.... you never know what you're getting into until you're in the thick of it.

I found it interesting, your insight into the mainstream making it possible in the bars rather than the "hardcore" singers. that was something that I thought as well.

I'll let you know my experiences as they happen and how my theories are turned into practice

BTW, I never answered you on the "what do you do now" front. My current business is radio controlled NASCAR. We do everything from private parties to county fairs and everything in between. Our website will give you some idea of what it is all about. We also manufacture the attractions for businesses around the country.

[bubba1453]

MADDMATT

I agree on all of your points but one, the redo songbooks so often. I own multiple systems and have approximately 10,000 songs. I do purchase new hits monthly. List them in front of book as new arrivals. Customers advise what songs they would like.
Works out fine. To redo that many pages every three months is not cost effective and alot of work ( I'm Not Lazy! ) But when you have 20-30 books per system, you figure the math. My customers are happy. I do it once a year. But thanks for the great input. Bottom line is everyone wants to be successful.

[MaddMatt]

bubba:

20-30 books per system?

I have never counted books at an event before but that has to be some kind of record. Most shows I have seen couldn't have more than 5-7 books for the whole place.

As an FYI, Xerx makes a color printer under their Tektronix brand name that has free black ink for the life of the printer. It uses solid ink technology and prints amazing pics as well. if you do a lot of printing, this might be the best way to go! I have one and love it

Madd Matt

[kedmison]

I agree with MaddMatt. That's alot of books! I myself go with 9. 8 by artists and 1 by title. What I have found that helps with my regulars is I give them a little pinch clip (for a better word) and they keep their slips. They simply put them in the order that they want to sing and as they use them I put it to the back of their stack. Saves them time in looking up their favorites; saves me on paper even though I know that's probably insignificant. I also know some KJ's like the "sing one/bring one slip system" I still like the "bring me what you want to do." I program into Hoster who's to do what and those that are regulars, I put them back in their stacks; the others I pitch.

Kelly

[MaddMatt]

Someone agreed with me?

I'm ..... feeling .... faint

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