what WILL work??

[tinman]

I wish they took paypal payments. I got money sitting there I need to spend.. HOW ABOUT IT>>> say u willllll and I will buy another plextor... that has been burned in and tested....and ready for me... and yes the support has been wonderful.. I know what its like for someone to walk in with somthing they purchased somewhere else and say "can you show me how this works" or "its not working"... Ya buddy. I'd be glad to show you how it works just bend over and don't scream while I'm shoving it up ur ass.. Thanks MTU
Tinman

[George]

Hi Jerry,

Thank you thank you for a welcome ray of sunshine in an otherwise depressing situation. This thread started out with a person wanting MTU to tell him what drive to use with Microstudio
so's he could buy it somewhere else and then probably gripe at MTU if it didn't work, and probably, as most of us would, blame the software.Then entered another individual who think's it's ethical to go on to another man's website and recommend competitive products.

Anyway, thanks again. How's the Edirol /KHP coming along ?

take care,

George

[SteveWalker]

George,

I'm know I was fortunate to have gotten one of those Sony specials from Office Depot.

MTU is providing a service to their customer and they deserve to be be paid for that service. Customers who wish to be "do it your selfer's" can do their own research and learn on the job.

I only recommended the Sony because I know it works. I don't guarantee that all who read this, have the know how to install their software properly and know how to find the correct drivers and install them correctly. So please people do your own research before you spend your money but I can tell you I have learned many expensive lesson over the years and $59 is not an expensive lesson.

CDRWIN is excellent software and I'm not comparing it to MTU software when I say that. This comes from 7 years of me using the CDRWIN software. I believe you when you say that MTU has software that just as good but I only need one program of that type.

Steve

[MTUSUPPORT]

We have been told by some clients, that if you call and ask Goldenhawk were to get a drive that will support CD+G, they say to go to MTU. This should say something? We have had about 4 sales that I know of from clients who had called Goldenhawk.

[admin]

I believe our web site is clear on this point. We only certify Microstudio to do CDG duplications with our CD-Recorder drives. We can't certify anything for any other drives. Period. We use to do that, and we found WAY TOO MANY folks that bought even the same drive we were buying, testing (rejecting the failures) and shipping where having problems.

Thus, we cannot certify any drive to work with Microstudio except drives we sell. We KNOW Microstudio will work with our drives, so it is not a Microstudio software issue. It is a drive issue.

As to TDK, they are not a manufacturer of CDR drives. They remarket various manufacturer's drives, so you have no asolute knowledge what they are currently shipping, or might have been on a distributor's shelf for some time, etc. It is a gamble.

[plink1]

Very interesting reading. I just purchased both a Plextor 40/12/40U external drive and the MicroStudio, obviously to copy CDG's. I previously owned a Compaq desktop and it had a Sony RW drive (thank God) because I didn't have a clue when I ordered it that some Cd writers wouldn't do CDG. I lucked out when I found it on the list of supported drives of CDRWIN that I ordered.
Compared to CDRWIN (2 yrs ago), MicroStudio is a no-brainer to run.
Because my new setup is XP I had to email with Bryan Cox re an appropriate driver. Excellent response and support.
What I guess I am saying is this...you can buy your burner at some warehouse closeout or whatever, but when you buy it at MTU, with your software, you get the equipment and the service, including this forum that you wouldn't find at Office Max or whatever. And, buying both (software/hardware) at MTU, ensures there is no finger pointing. Either way, MTU has to make it write (pun intended).

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by plink1
Very interesting reading. I just purchased both a Plextor 40/12/40U external drive and the MicroStudio, obviously to copy CDG's. I previously owned a Compaq desktop and it had a Sony RW drive (thank God) because I didn't have a clue when I ordered it that some Cd writers wouldn't do CDG. I lucked out when I found it on the list of supported drives of CDRWIN that I ordered.
Compared to CDRWIN (2 yrs ago), MicroStudio is a no-brainer to .....................

plink1,

You were lucky as you say but Sony and Yamaha are heavily into the music industry and are interested in this type of technology. Yamaha seems to have it covered across the board (but there must be one model you can shoot down). CDRWIN is a good program but the user interface leaves alot to be desired. I thought by now they would have made it user friendly. I will be honest with my answers as I see it and if I'm wrong I will follow up corrections.

Steve

[George]

admin
Moderator

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 1091
No, Yamaha drives are not supported
We sold Yamaha drives for years, but from their 8424 model on, we have had problems with their drives for Karaoke CDG work. Thus, we do not recommend them.



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

I'd doubt the situation has changed that dramatically since ADMIN made this post in Jan.2002. Looks like one could shoot down most of the Yamahas.

George

[MTUSUPPORT]

George is correct again. The Yamaha drives don't work for the CD+G. Yamaha drives will show up as able to do CD+G. The problem is that when you read and write the disc, you will then end up with distorted graphics on your new copy. We tried to work with Yamaha for about a year, but without any help from them we had to find another drive that would work.

The next brands of drives that we found were the Hp and Sony drives. These were both made by Sony at the time. These drives had about a 50/50 chance it would work without the graphics breaking up. We then gave up on these drives because Sony went over to buying the drives from Sanyo at about the 16x, so some Sony drives are not actually made by Sony anymore. I think you just got a lucky one, or Sony has started making there drives again. We switched to Plextor after the 10x Sony drives and the Plextor drives have been working perfect since. Plextor doesn't seem to be planning on doing anything to there drives to not make them read the CD+G format. Also if you read some of the reviews and things, Plextor always ends up getting very high reviews.

[George]

Thanks Bryan.
Since there is a movement by some manufacturers towards preventing burners from copying CDG's I'd think it prudent for the owner of any drive that's copying commercial CDG's successfully to avoid going to the drive manufacturer's site and "upgrading" the firmware. They might wake up to a surprise. Just my thinking.

George

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by George
admin
Moderator

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 1091
No, Yamaha drives are not supported
We sold Yamaha drives for years, but from their 8424 model on, we have had problems with their drives for Karaoke CDG work. Thus, we do not recommend them.
George

I've had my Yamaha CRW4260 for about 6 years and it works perfectly burning CDG's with the CDRWIN program. Golden Hawk's list of supported devices used to state that ALL YAMAHA burners work but now they list 30 models that work with their CDRWIN program. Many users have problems because they do not have the correct driver for their operating system. When it doesn't work they assume the problem is the burner when the problem is the driver.

Steve

[George]

Steve, you still just don't get it do you ?

MTU's contention based on EXPERIENCE is that where one drive of a model will work, another will not, and therefore it's a gamble to purchase a drive simply because someone else's works. Don't you think the people at MTU have intelligence enough to have downloaded necessary drivers to make their determinations, and even with the proper drivers installed had a failure rate with some brands? So great, you had one that works, but don't pass that on as carte blanc approval of a brand or model and lead others down the garden path by infering all they need is the correct drivers. It's not that simple.

How many of the burners Goldenhawk supports will they assume the responsibility of CERTIFYING to work even with their own software?

Also you edited the post I made to make it appear that was my statement. I had another line ot two following that which made it clear that it was a quote from a support post.

[jim in ohio]

The one thing I have found out the hard way is that the name on the burner is not who made the burner, and who made the first 5000 burners did not make the next 5000 burners with the same name and model number on them.

And lets face it, the guy trying to sell you that burner, answering all your questions at the computer store was working last week across the street asking if you wanted fries with that.

No one is going to sell you a burner, and exchange it if you can't backup CD+G's with it untill you get one that works, MTU will, but no one else.

Jim


Burn Burn Burn

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by George
Steve, you still just don't get it do you ?

MTU's contention based on EXPERIENCE is that where one drive of a model will work, another will not, and therefore it's a gamble to purchase a drive simply because someone else's works. Don't you think the people at MTU have intelligence enough to have downloaded necessary drivers to make their determinations, and even with the proper drivers installed had a failure rate with some brands? So great, you had one that works, but don't pass that on as carte blanc approval of a brand or model and lead others down the garden path by infering all they need is the correct drivers. It's not that simple.

I get it. MTU provides good customer support and some of your customers are better served from the experience of MTU tech support. Our individual success stories may not be replicated. I agree that it is best for those who care to work with the good people here at MTU.

Steve

[supercat]

I believe our web site is clear on this point. We only certify Microstudio to do CDG duplications with our CD-Recorder drives. We can't certify anything for any other drives. Period. We use to do that, and we found WAY TOO MANY folks that bought even the same drive we were buying, testing (rejecting the failures) and shipping where having problems.

I think I understand what you're saying, but you're not being clear. Let me see if I can say it better.

There are two issues when writing karaoke disks: (1) whether the drive can be commanded to create the proper pattern of pits and lands on the disk, and (2) whether it can create that pattern of pits and lands accurately enough that common CD+G players will be able to read it.

For various technical reasons, the CD+G format requires much greater precision in pit/land placement for reliable operation than do other formats (CD-audio, CD-data, etc.) In their quest to minimize cost, many manufacturers accept manufacturing variations which do not affect operation of other storage modes, but cause problems with CD+G disks.

Am I understanding those issues correctly? If so, feel free to borrow any of the text above into an FAQ since I think it might help make clear legitimate reasons for you to only certify your own drives.

Now for a question of my own: I've read about Yamaha's new CRW-F1 drive and am interested in its "Disk T@2" feature. The drive claims superior accuracy of pit/land placement in its "audio master" mode. Have you looked at all at such drives, or have you been overly soured by past experiences with Yamaha?

[email reply requested]

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by supercat
[i]............For various technical reasons, the CD+G format requires much greater precision in pit/land placement for reliable operation than do other formats..............Am I understanding those issues correctly? [email reply requested]

supercat,

The audio on a CDG can be played back on any normal CD player. All CD burners should work fine in recording the audio portion of a CDG same as a regular music CD. The problem has to do with the graphics content of the CDG since this is a special format.

The accuracy of the pits is not the issue. If this was the problem, it wouldn't work correctly for regular music cd's or anything else would it? The issue is compatiblitly with the graphics part of the formatting.

Steve

[supercat]

The accuracy of the pits is not the issue. If this was the problem, it wouldn't work correctly for regular music cd's or anything else would it? The issue is compatiblitly with the graphics part of the formatting.

Actually, the accuracy is a major issue. Audio CD's have a fairly generous amount of error-correcting code stored on the audio data, to allow players to correct any read errors that occur (and there may be a lot). Data CD's have even more. In addition, a an uncorrected misread on an audio disk will usually result in only a momentary slight audio disturbance, and a misread on a data CD can usually be corrected by trying to read the sector again.

Unfortunately, the CD+G subcode data is stored with little error-correcting code (and some players may not even use that). Further, while an audio misread may cause a glitch of no more than 1/75 second, a misread in the graphics subcode data will cause a glitch to appear on the screen that will remain there until something overwrites it.

[SteveWalker]

supercat,

What's you point?

MTU said: "We can't certify anything for any other drives".

What do you think they're talking about? Do you think they're certifying how to do R&D on CD burners? Do you think they want to certify a new standard for error detection and correction for CD burners to handle CDG graphics?

Of course not, they are trying to certify which manufacturers models "in existence" are compatible with their software to save their customer from having problems.

You're missing the point of this thread by confusing yourself with Yamaha's marketing hype.

You said: "a misread in the graphics subcode data will cause a glitch to appear on the screen".

I'm not having problems with glitches on the screen and audio dropouts. Are you supercat? If not, what IS you point?

Steve

[George]

Steve,



George

[supercat]

//What do you think they're talking about? Do you think they're certifying how to do R&D on CD burners? Do you think they want to certify a new standard for error detection and correction for CD burners to handle CDG graphics?//

A number of people had been asking why MTU was only willing to certify individual drives (which then had to be bought from them at markup) rather than certifying operation with particular drive models. None of MTU's responses dealt with the reason that some drives of a particular model will work well for CD+G while others may not, even if they're built to the same specification. Unless a burner lays down tracks precisely enough that even a non-terribly-good reader can achieve a raw error rate of less than 1 bad bit in 10^5, there are going to be glitches if the disk is played back on a typical karaoke machine. Given that CD-audio and CD-data disks can accommodate much higher error rates without noticeable degredation, many CD burners aren't made to such a standard.

//You're missing the point of this thread by confusing yourself with Yamaha's marketing hype. //

Yamaha makes the specific claim that their drive writes disks with less jitter than other drives. Jitter is a quantifiable phenomenon, and it can contribute to read errors, especially when combined with dust, fingerprints, optical degredation, etc.

//You said: "a misread in the graphics subcode data will cause a glitch to appear on the screen". I'm not having problems with glitches on the screen and audio dropouts. Are you supercat? If not, what IS you point?//

I've not yet burned any of my own disks (don't yet have a suitable burner) but I've certainly had problems with graphic glitches using other disks.