question about Krystal 1200

[JeffG]

Hello,

Had another question that I've been curious about since the day my system was delivered to me. I'm running the Krystal 1200 without a breakout box. When I plug directly into the spdif or aes/ebu input I get a pop (will damage speakers if not careful) each time I initialize to record a new segment. I master into the computer using outboard gear and converters so I'll hit the pause button and then record button to put the computer into input for monitoring. Every time I initialize to record a brand new segment (stereo mix) into the computer it POPS. It's about a 10ms pop that has literally about taken my ears off a couple times.

Does any one experience this problem using just the Krystal Dig I/O's (no breakout box)??? It will not do it if you use a breakout box.

If not, please test this. I have a friend who uses Microeditor as well and we did a test. We unplugged his breakout box and plugged the spdif digital output of the dat player directly into the spdif input in the back of the computer... it did the same thing, POP!!! He runs the Krystal 2400.

I questioned Dave and everyone else early on for the first year, they pretty much blew me off and acted like they had no idea what I was talking about. They have yet to resolve the problem and I just got sick of asking. I work around it by turning my speakers off each time to initialize a new segment, but it's really annoying. I've about had it!! After spending almost $6,000 on this system I would have thought they would have been more helpful, or at least offer me a breakout box to resolve the situation.

Leading into my next question, I might be able to get a hold of a 2 channel breakout box. Is this compatible to the Krystal 1200? Will it plug into the DSP connection on the back of the Krystal card and function?

Sorry for the long post... appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

Jeff

[admin]

I'm 99% sure this click problem was fixed in a prior version of Microeditor. What are you running?

The Microsound 2 and 4 channel I/O modules' DSP cable does plug into the Krystal DSP I/O connector, identical to the old Rev-J DSP I/O connector.

[JeffG]

Thanks for posting.

Glad to know that the 2 channel I/O should work.

As far as the pop thing, that has not been fixed... at least not for me. I'm running version 5.3 that supports 16 and 24 bit files. I was told several things a few years ago that it was in the initialization of the DSP chip, also that no one else was experiencing the problem etc... I still don't know what the final answer was to this problem.

All I know is that I've had to deal with this for almost 4 years now. It last stood that I was supposed to have been called back with a solution, possibly writing the code to erase the first 10-20ms after starting to record a new segment. The pop is about 12ms long or so.

Long story short, has there been a fix? Do you know what I am talking about and have you reproduced it yourself? I really felt blown off a few years ago and just stopped asking about it... everyone had a different story it seemed.

If there has been a fix... LET ME KNOW!!!

Thanks,

Jeff

[JeffG]

Another thing,

I posted another thread about creating hidden tracks at the front of a CD. Am I right about not being able to do this with MicroEDitor? No audio before the first T flag will go to the disc? Is there a manipulation that can be done in the .cue file or something of that nature?

Do you know of a program that will record audio at the beginning of a CD without flagging it, and still be Red Book compliant?


Thanks!!

Jeff

[JeffG]

I'm running Windows 98 with verison 5.3. Your test on Win2000 running 5.5 does me no good!

Please test it using the same system or software rev. I'm running. To my knowledge, 5.5 isn't even released to the public yet.

I would imagine most people are still sitting on Win98 being that you are just now supporting Win2000? Could be wrong.

Let me know what you're results are using 5.3. (I've actually got 5.3c ? b or c)

What's the deal about 5.4? Is that released and workable on 98, or was that for 2000?

Let me know because I have not been imagining this for 4 years, it really does this and I probably should have sent the computer back to you the day I got it.

Thanks!

Jeff

[JeffG]

Hey,

I just plugged in this 2 channel breakout box and when I go into ME to select the I/O it gives me the Krystal option only, the I/O box is greyed out and not selectable. What do I need to do to get this functioning?

Thanks!

Jeff

[MTUSUPPORT]

Jeff,
You must go into the setup test program under the Microsound folder. Click Setup/ IO Options and change it there. Then reboot the system. It will then change to allow the option to be available under the Default menu.

[JeffG]

Bryan,

Can you give me the name of the file I need to open to make this change? I don't see anything for test setup or I/O setup in the MicroSound folder. There is a oemsetup.ini file.

Let me know which file to run in order to do this. I'm running 5.3c.

Thanks,

Jeff

[MTUSUPPORT]

Go to the Start Menu
Program Files
Click Microsound folder
Click Setup/Test Program
This will then open and you can then set the changes under the Setup Menu.

[JeffG]

Bryan,

Thanks!! That did it. Hopefully I can talk my friend into selling me this breakout box. The pop is gone!!

Appreciate you,

Jeff

[JeffG]

Bryan,

Can I with ME or do you know of how to create hidden tracks at the front of a cd with another software program? I had a first time request about doing this, they heard it on another CD. I can do it on the end no problem, kind of baffles me as how to do this at the front.

Curious to your thoughts... thanks,

Jeff

[geezer]

---if you search back toward the start of this forum, there is a post by the right honorable Charles Lawson detailing exactly how this is done....it involves a text edit on the DAO .doc file, as I recall.

[geezer]

.....Just be aware that use of the old I/O box (which I still do regularly with Krystal), even with the digital ports, will limit you to 16 bits....If you want to I/O 24bit files, you have to use Krystal directly.

[JeffG]

Hey Geezer,

Appreciate the additional feedback. I dropped Mr. Lawson a line to get some additional input.

Thanks,

Jeff

[admin]

You will get a loud click when you first invoke record via the AES port on-board the Krystal card, with valid AES signal being sent to the input (in my test a Finalizer with no audio running through it. If you just hit record with AES input selected, it will record the initial noise spike, which is quite loud.

This will happen when you have changed the Krystal I/O mode from Analog to AES/SPDIF, or AES/SPDIF to Analog. If you don't change modes, you won't get the pop.

However, if you keep the record screen open and then re-invoke record again, such as to record in a subsequent segment, you do not get the click. If you close the record window and then open it again though, you will get the click.

A convenient enough work-around though:
Generally, I don't just start recording. I usually put Medit into a record/pause state and then feed some signal to check the level before recording it. Done that way, the click won't even get recorded, since you're in pause when it happens.

Of course it will show up on speakers though. The other work around if you are recording in a bunch of segments is this:
1. Dim the monitor.
2. Open the record screen, select record/pause mode.
3. Bring up the monitor
4. After saving whatever is recorded as a segment, DON"T close the record window. If you like, you can move it down to the bottom of the project screen so it's out of the way. Then when you want it again, just drage it up. In the limited testing I did, doing it that way did not cause the clicks in subsequent records.

I myself do #4 all the time when doing inserts or revisions into existing projects. It is also much more convenient as a way to work for my needs, since I'm generally NOT recording into the project's default sound file, and thus if I close the record window and then want to add more segments, I'd have to go find the file I was using for the last one, open it, etc. etc. Easier just to leave it with the top of the record screen window dragged down into the bottom of the Medit project screen until it's needed again. Also avoids having to click "record a/b" or similar again. In fact I cover over that aread of the project window by dragging the top of the record screen there. Then when needed, you just pull it up and you're ready to go.

The complaint on the web site would probably still stand if you did discard say 10msec of audio at the front, because he's talking about the monitoring too-- not just whether it gets recorded or not. I have some DAT decks though that also make a brief noise burst when put into record or record/pause using a digital input. While they are trying to find something to lock to, they will spit out a noise burst or spike for a brief interval. It is somewhat similar to the digital noise bursts you also get with a DAT that won't play back right and also with CD players with digital outs when the source CD in the player is badly corrupted.

Hope this helps. I did not check this with later versions than 5.3.3 but will try to check on a 5.4 system when I can, disabling the i/o modules I normally use.

R.LePage

[JeffG]

Mr. LePage,

Appreciate your addition to this post. I assumed that I had to close the record screen after creating a new segment, in order to access and edit the segment in segment view or edit view... I'll give your suggestion a try. Thanks! I work in a similar fashion by putting the machine into input (record/pause). Up until now, I've just been turning my speakers down when I get ready to master each song. Fortunately I work from home and most of my clients are not present when I do their albums. I'd like to stretch out a bit and take my business to a new level so I better try and find some answers to these questions. Can't have clients sitting in the room with that "pop" thing happening!

Let me see if I understand something you mentioned. I record into the computer using the AES input, I monitor using the Analog outputs to my analog mixer. If I were to monitor sending an AES signal from the computer to a digital mixer (via AES), then monitor from that source... the "pop" will not happen? The computer would be Recording and Monitoring using the same mode (Dig- AES/EBU)? Did I understand that correctly?


Final thing, I've read and been told that the breakout boxes will not pass a 24bit signal through the dig ports (AES/SPDIF). Is this true? I'm just trying to get a few confirmations on this, I've been told you can only pass a true 24bit signal directly using the Krystal card dig I/O's. If this is the case, will the breakout box truncate the 24bit signal to 16bits when it sees the 24bit dig source (ex. from a 24bit source - Masterlink etc)? Is there any dithering involved?

That's it!! Appreciate your help and advice. Take care,

Jeff Gudenrath


gudenrath@comcast.net

[Rich LePage]

Hi Jeff,

1. True about limit being 16 bits using the i/o module. The digital interface for it was designed before 24 bit took hold.

2. AES/EBU record and monitor question:
I'm not sure monitoring via AES/EBU will cure the startup click
which (I think) is because the input is searching for a valid clock to sync to. I'll try it that way (I probably have done it but don't remember offhand) and get back to you.

I put up with the lockup noise all the time, and it usually doesn't cause me a problem. Usually I'll mute the analog inputs at my board or use a dim function on the board for the monitors.
I've seen/head the same thing with other devices, so it doesn't seem unique to MTU. Even my TC stuff can be made to make a nice big noise, especially when switching inputs using the main function selector on a Finalizer Plus or also on the newer TC DB-MAX unit. Also can happen when searching for clock using the TC digital ins, somewhat similar to the MTU setup you described.

Apogee's a/d's can also make a very loud, non-muted noise when hooked up either to DAT decks or to MTU's stuff. If you inadvertently hit the sampling rate selector while connected to a digital input of a DAT or MTU, it'll also make you a big time noise.
I confess I did that once-- the Apogee was on a cart right near
my knee, and I musta brushed against it without knowing it...

I had one experience too where an Apogee extl power supply was becoming intermittent, and right in middle of a live session, I started getting all kinds of hash and junk-- big bursts of noise coming from nowhere all of a sudden, but intermittently (of course). At least I could track it down quickly and get on with the client and the live talent. I just swapped some cables (this was at an outside studio in NYC) and used the MTU i/o module's balanced analog ins/outs instead. Though it was disconcerting, it probably upset me more than the client-- who is an extremely fussy one-- but stuff like that can happen. It only resulted in a couple minutes of expensive downtime, and so it wasn't the worst thing I've seen in about 20 years in the studio.

(That would probably be the day 2 of 3 power supplies for a big Sony board went south with a 25 piece live session. The fail-safe was that with just one basic power supply running, all assignments etc to the console did not work, as well as all indicator lights/LEDs. But the preamps and modules did work. I repatched everything to direct outs from modules to a 24 track and still got the session done-- though with about 1/2 hour of extremely expensive downtime for all those players. It was hairy and I had to group/submix later, but hey, that's the kind of stuff that can happen though you hope it doesn't! 2nd worst was 1/2 of an SSL4000E going south in the middle of another large tracking date. Recovered from that one too. )


By now you've also probably noticed the whine noise when you power up with the i/o module -- which you don't have with Krystal alone. At outside places, I dim the monitors down a lot when powering up, but I actually use that whine as a simple signal continuity check-- so long as the monitors aren't cranked way up, it's a quick and easy way of knowing that the MTU system is being correctly returned to the board. Dumb, but it works.

Hope this helps.

Rich LePage