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  #21  
Old July 10th, 2001, 04:15 AM
Rob Haines Rob Haines is offline
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Just got back from vacation. I experienced the previous reported problems: desktop icon points to incorrect exe and typed in output filename does not work. Also I can't get the "pan" setting to go to "0". It's always a positive or negative number.

Rob Haines
  #22  
Old July 10th, 2001, 07:20 PM
mandal mandal is offline
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Question vogone 2

Hi
1.downloaded vogone 2
2. unninstalled vogone 1 and installed vogone 2
3. disabled all othen program "viruskiller/ firewall"
4. hit icon prog.started nice imported a 15 sec wavfile
5. hit any play button

The sound that comes out of my speakers are breaking up in peaces 1-1,5 sec long. Anyone have any ideas?
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  #23  
Old July 11th, 2001, 08:59 AM
admin admin is offline
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Question Mandel...

1. What is your processor CPU type and clock speed?

2. How much computer RAM memory (not disk) do you have?

3. Does the breaking up sound the same when you click the diffeent play buttons?
  #24  
Old July 11th, 2001, 09:54 AM
mandal mandal is offline
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Hi Again

I have: AMD K6 3D mmx 400 Mhz, 256 MB SD ram, Windows ME Build 3000

I dissable all other programs so that vogone was operating alone. The sound is the same no matter what button i hit to play the wav. I tryed to play 4-5 different wav`s but it`s all the same !
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  #25  
Old July 11th, 2001, 01:34 PM
CD CD is offline
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sound breaking up

I too have the same setup as you... AMD K6 400MHz, 96MB ram,
win 98. I get same fault soun dbreaking up it plays about 1 sec on and off all through song. Have you got onboard sound card by any chance same as me? It could be that, but i have not yet tried a new one in my PC. Let me know how you go on.

This problem turns out to be that Vogone requires so much floating point math processing that it cannot run in real-time on an AMD K6 or K62 processor. This is why CD earlier reported "1 second on and off" playing. The processor was "gulping" blocks of samples, processing and outputting them, then getting the next gulp. It was simply not able to keep up with Vogone's demands for processing power.

The K6 family have a single-pipeline floating point processor technology. The AMD Athelon, and the Intel Pentium, Celeron and Zeon families all have four-pipeline processors.

Vogone 2 uses floating point math to deliver professional quality, and the massive computations just cannot be done on the slower K6 processors.
  #26  
Old July 11th, 2001, 09:13 PM
mandal mandal is offline
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Cool Sound card

I got a soundblaster live sound card !!

i did run the dxdiag to look for errors but all of my )&/%)/&% computer is working fine!!
i dont know what to do .. ill try tomorrow with a new sound card ( i got 3 different)

johnny
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  #27  
Old July 12th, 2001, 09:30 AM
kellifa kellifa is offline
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Question Vogone 2 Testing Results

I had no trouble installing or using Vogone II. I did have trouble getting into the beta testers forum. I kept getting sent to Microstudio instead. Finally, I came at in a different way and accessed it through the forums index. Also I read the Manual pretty carefully, and I can't find any check box for Enable Loop Play. Am I just not looking in the right place? Where is the right place? At this point I have to close down Vogone 2 to start a new song or even a new version of the song I am working on.

As you know the thing I do best is "hear" the sound of the music and catch any distortion and report on that, so that is what I tried to concentrate on. On the whole, Vogone 2 was easy to use and I did read the manual cover to cover. Anyway, I tested these four songs which I chose because each had it's own unique aspect:

The Little Girl John Michael Montgomery
Mainly Lead Vocalist, minimal backup
Goodbye Earl Dixie Chicks
Lead Singer with lots of back up vocals
and instrumentation
Travelin' Man Ricky Nelson
Lead Singer, no back up vocals in the version
I used
Barbara Ann The Beachboys
Lots of harmony, back up vocals,
instrumentals

I didn't have a lot of luck eliminating lead singers voices, Ricky Nelson Travelin' Man turned out the best, but the vocals were still just softened not removed.
I didn't have much luck at all on Barbara Ann or Goodbye Earl, in fact after trying for about a half an hour on each song I just gave up.
The Little Girl was not too bad, but still not great (or even good) and I have come to expect greatness from MTU.

I can hear a lot of sound distortion with the sliders when they're all the way to either end. I didn't have any trouble with skipping in the songs, they all played fine, I just couldn't get the vocals eliminated, even with the simpler songs. I tried Vogone I & oddly enough, it seemed to work as well or better than Vogone 22. I also tried making more than one pass with a song, but it made little difference. I couldn't climinate the vocals clearly and had to be careful with the settings or the songs were distorted. I think you guys are great, but I don't think Vogone 2 is doing what I hoped it would do.

Peace,
kellifa
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  #28  
Old July 12th, 2001, 01:44 PM
joethermo joethermo is offline
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Thumbs up WHAT AM I DOING RIGHT?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND ALL THE NEGATIVE REPORTS!!

I AM HAVING GREAT SUCCESS WITH THIS. I HAVE DEVOCALIZED A DOZEN OR SO SONGS, EVEN MP3 TO WAV FILES. SOME SONGS DO COME OUT BETTER THAN OTHERS, BUT ON THE WHOLE VERY USABLE FOR THE INTEDED PURPOSE. FOR INSTANCE, I DID 'ON A GOOD NIGHT' BY WADE HAYES AND ALL YOU HEAR IS SOME ECHO IN THE BACKGROUNG FOR THE LEAD AND THE BACKUP VOCALS ARE INTACT ON THE CHORUS!
ON THE OTHER END, A VERSION OF 'GOOD TIME CHARLIE'S GOT THE BLUES' BY DWIGHT YOAKUM WAS NOT AS GOOD (I THINK BECAUSE IT'S A DUET WITH CHERL CROW), BUT STILL VERY USABLE.
AS FAR AS VOGONE1, AS I STATED BEFORE, IT SOUNDS LIKE MUSIC FROM A 1960's TRANSISTER RADIO WITH A 2" SPEAKER.


JOE
  #29  
Old July 12th, 2001, 07:16 PM
djkaraok djkaraok is offline
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Further Testing

I agree with Kellie as far as the quality from MTU and maybe I am also expecting to much as far as vocal reduction. All songs that I have tried are pretty much the same vocal reduction. They each had a mix as to the total amount of vocal reduction but not enough reduction to the extent that you would expect or need to achieve in order to utilize that feature. Sorry for the review but I think that you want honesty and not fluff. If those of you that think that your vocal reduction is GREAT would like to send me the before and after files I can then see what you consider as GOOD vocal removal or reduction at least.


Jerry

djkaraok@home will accept any size file that you want to send for me to get and listen to your files.
  #30  
Old July 12th, 2001, 07:35 PM
MikeP MikeP is offline
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Vogone 2

I agree with joethermo and include the conclusion of my earlier post:

"Conclusion

Vogone 2 can produce very good results very quickly on centre panned (the usual) stereo tracks which have originally been recorded in a (recording) studio. When one considers all the facts (including how much it would cost to produce a "band track" in a recording studio with the original artists exact arrangement/accompaniment), I think the results are truly quite amazing. The most difficult thing to retain is the bass & drums (because they are always panned to the centre the same as the lead vocal). Vogone 2 manages to do this as well as anything else - perhaps better."

Compared to many other PC software manufacturers, MTU produce products that do what they claim they will and are simple and user-friendly. Just compare KHP and Microstudio to the fancy-looking DART product. There is a well known saying that ."simplicity is the varnish of the masters". This could apply to MTU.

I have not read one word of the manual but have no trouble achieving a useable result. There are ways of achieving total elimination of true stereo studio recordings but they involve an enormous amount of time and processing. There are two examples where the exact opposite has been used in modern recordings. One is the duet between Nat King Cole & Natalie and the other is the modern arrangement of the theme song to the recent movie "Return to Me" featuring the voice of Dean Martin.
Perhaps some folk are expecting too much. Maybe it would be more accurate to describe the results as "vocal masking" (a term used on dvd and vcd machines that have karaoke functionality). If you want total elimination then you will have to be prepared to "pay the price" - a great deal of your time and money - not to mention total understanding of the "art".
Having said all that, I should remind everyone that this is not the final product and we are here to provide constructive feedback. Like everyone else, I would hope that V2 can be further improved before its release.
  #31  
Old July 12th, 2001, 08:02 PM
djkaraok djkaraok is offline
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Please Send Me files

This is the second major input as to the ability to do a good job. I must therefore conclude that I am doing something wrong or expecting too much. Please send me some of the before and after files so I can see what YOU think that OTHERS will accept as ok. Remember that this product will go out to people not as yourselves that will expect something that the product will do. These consumers have not had the luxury of trying other fancy versions of a similar product to see how good this product is reacting to the vocal elimination. It would be hard to sell a product that does a marginal job of vocal reduction. Remember people that MTU has a good reputation and that the end user is who will decide if the product is acceptable or not. I must tell you after 20 years of experience of beta testing software that the consumer will be a lot harder over a period of time that any of us currently would be. When I test the software I do not expect miracles but do expect that it does what I (and I am sure other consumers) are to believe it will do. Maybe if I had tested other products that offer a solution for vocal reduction that I would think differently. But, then again how many of the people that are going to purchase this product with expectations are already using a product that does vocal reduction versus first time expectant buyers. If those of you that think that the reduction is GOOD will send me the before and after files I can see if I am not doing it correctly. I am looking forward in hearing from you.


Thanks

Jerry
djkaraok@home.com
  #32  
Old July 12th, 2001, 10:22 PM
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nitelife nitelife is offline
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No matter what I try,I just can't get usable results.Could the problem be similar to those of KHP?
Some people are reporting good results while others of us are giving it a very poor rating!!! Does it make a difference what windows program you are using?
I am using windows 98 second edition.How about the other testers ?
nitelife
  #33  
Old July 13th, 2001, 01:23 PM
djkaraok djkaraok is offline
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Win 98 SE

Nite... In answer to your question re: Operating system being used. I have tested with BOTH Win 98SE and Win 2000 and my results did not vary. Maybe others are using either NT or Win95? My system is a dual boot system and a Pentium III 667 mhz with 256k memory and a Soundblaster Plat 5.1 soundcard - and 70 gig of hard drive storage and my results apparently are matching yours.



Jerry

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  #34  
Old July 13th, 2001, 01:44 PM
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Exclamation Comments...

It is clear that there are two camps using Vogone 2. This, by itself, is an interesting evolution. I will try to call and talk to some of you who are having problems to see if it is "pilot error" or "product deficiency".

My post at the bottom of page 1 of this Thread is what we expect to change before releasing. Note that there is no further polishing of the removal algorithm. Before we released for your testing, we beat on the algorithm several times, and we currently believe it is as good as this technology can deliver.

FYI BACKGROUND:
1. There is a fundamental tradeoff between the steepness of the high and low filters rolling off and what is call their "passband ripple". The steeper the rolloff, the more ripple there is. The problem is that the amplitude of the ripple is limiting how much of the actual master vocal can be removed. You can think of the ripple as causing a 'residual" amount of vocal to remain. However, this is very slight, and probably cannot be heard when the adjustments are made correctly.

The second thing that some of you may not understand (or recognize that is what you are hearing) is that the reverberation effect added to the vocal before mixing cannot be removed. These are the low amplitude "echoes" you hear. Reverb changes the phase of the audio in the left and right channels on the echoes that it creates. Since vocal eliminators invert the phase of one channel and mix it to the other to get the cancellation of identical phased signals, you can see that when the phase is changed, the left+right(inverted) will not cancel. Thus, the reverb echoes will not be removed. They usually are down -40dB to -60dB and thus very low. They usually are not objectionable unless you are listening to only the removed music in a quiet enviroment. If the intent is to use the vocal reduced song to add lyrics to and sing to it, then the echoes will not be audible with the singer.

The third point I would like to make involves economics and survival. First, the problems some of you are having indicates MTU will have support problems with Vogone 2 unless I can clear up where the misunderstandings exist, assuming that is the problem. Second, the development effort we have undertaken to this point, and the expert programmer we have on this project say that we have done about as good as can be expected with this technology. As the saying goes, we can't "squeeze any more blood out of this turnip." There is a different technology we could use, but it will be more difficult to control, however it may deliver superior vocal removal. The cost to switch now is currently prohibitive.

In closing, let me inject one final word. It is very difficult to provide professional quality audio tools at bargin-basement prices. The return is just not there, and the risk is high. There also is a bit of "ego" in turning out superior product. To not make a sufficient profit on a superior product, is a bit of a slap in the face. As MikeP has pointed out (in comparing Vogone 2 to his $1,600 Thompson VE box, and 3 programs), we have done an excellent job. We could rewrite with a new technology in our posession, but that would dictate that we more then double the price. However, if we accomplish what we might be able to with that technology, it could sell in the pro-audio market for - IMHO - $3,000 or more because of the power it would provide in separating sounds from a mixed song. Thus, it is hard to conceive of selling it for $199. Such are the strategic decisions of business.

I currently am on target to release Vogone 2 within the next two weeks. We will make my posted changes (see thread below) and I will attempt to discover "misunderstandings" if they exist. If so, I will upgrade the manual to make it even clearer. I also will modify our web page to indicate the types of songs that won't eliminate, and make it clearer that users should expect to "reduce" not eliminate with this tool.

Your feedback and testing has been of tremendous help. As we all can understand, vocal "modification" or muting is an art, and also very much affected by the "ear of the listener".
  #35  
Old July 13th, 2001, 05:29 PM
djkaraok djkaraok is offline
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Technical Clarification

Thank you for the technical information in the last post. It is a tough situation to be able to sell a product that does vocal "reduction, elimination..." without these types of differences. I agree completely that the ear of each of us is so different that we might be inconsistent with regard to the results that we hear and expect. Keep up the good work. There is no other real competition in this market at this value. I can see why!



Jerry Thomas
  #36  
Old July 14th, 2001, 12:06 PM
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Exclamation V2.008 spec changes - 07/14/01

The following are the changes I have presented to engineering for the next V2.008 release based on your current feedback.

DONE! 1. Remove VogoneII Use - There are still occurrences of VogoneII. Change them all to Vogone2.

A. During installation the application is installed in: C:\Program Files\Micro Technology Unlimited\VogoneII
Change this to C:\Program Files\Micro Technology Unlimited\Vogone 2

B. The Vogone icon added to the desktop is looking for the VogoneII.exe file, but the program installs as Vogone2.exe file so the Icon doesn't work. Change the Icon properties to look for Vogone2.exe.

DONE! 2. Change Manual Installed Path - The manual is installed in C:\Program Files\Micro Technlogy Unlimited\Vogone 2\Manual. Technology is misspelled as Technlogy. Change this to: C:\Program Files\Micro Technology Unlimited\Vogone 2\Manual

DONE! 3. Change Active Focus - When you tab to any of the slider controls, the "Check MTU" button receives the focus. Don't give the Check MTU button focus until the user tabs to it or clicks it.

DONE! 4. Change Input and Output Filename Field Operation - The Input Filename and Output Filename fields allow typing in a filename and path, but apparently do not accept this. In one case it caused a crash.

DONE! A. INPUT FIELD DESIRED PERFORMANCE:
1. Don't allow manual entry in the Input field at all.
2. Gray out the field to force using the Select Input File button.
3. Force the user to select a known filename in a known path.
4. Make the input filename path the default path for the output filename.

DONE! B. OUTPUT FIELD DESIRED PERFORMANCE:
1. Allow manual entry in the Output field.
2. When a new filename is entered (normally they are creating a new file), use the normal operation that asks if they wish to create the filename if it doesn't exist.
3. If they enter (or use the Select Output File button) an existing filename, ask if they want to overwrite the existing filename.
4. They should be able to enter the filename they want.
5. If a path is not specified, default to the same directory as the Input field.
6. IN ALL CASES --- check and disallow users entering the input filename in the output field.
7. The error message text should be: "Enter a different filename. Trying to write to the input filename is not allowed."
8. In Vogone 1 we allow this and it instantly sets the input file to zero length and then it hangs the program.

Added 07/14/01: Will be done in V2.008

5. Add Enable Loop Play checkbox:
A. When checked it shows S and E flags at the far ends of the Play Indicator slider.
B. When first enabled, the S flag is selected and highlighted.
C. With the S flag selected, pressing the spacebar while playing will move the S flag to that location, and select the E flag.
D. With the E flag selected, pressing the spacebar while playing will move the E flag to that location, and select the S flag.
E. With loop play enabled, play will continuously loop between the S and E flags. If they have been moved, then the area looped on is shortened.
F. To move the flags back out, click the Enable Loop Play check box off and back on. This resets the flags to the ends of the song.
G. Ideal - Allow clickand drag of either flag with the mouse.

6. Pan Position Adjuster:
A. Reduce the adjustment range to increase the resolution in the critical area.
B. Remove the numeric field as it has not value in the process.
C. Add 2-pixel higher tic marks every 10 locations. Make the Center position 3-pixels higher.
D. Reduce the length of the adjuster to accomodate the appropriate adjustment resolution range.
E. Change the Vogone 1, Vogone 2, and Play Original button locations.

7. Change the Adjust Output Level control:
A. Make it only amplify - attenuate is not needed
B. Move the "0" to the bottom
C. Change the amplification range so it can clip most songs at full adjustment range.
D. Make the adjuster control higher to gain more adjustment range.
E. Add a VU Peak meter to the right of the adjuster.
F. Add a group box around these items.
  #37  
Old July 14th, 2001, 03:15 PM
Brian Corr Brian Corr is offline
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Sucess

Song: Radiohead - Karma Police

Ok I have had a wee bit of time to play about with this now and I seem to be getting the hang of it.

The song is one I attempted with Vogone 1 which I thought I had good results until I attempted to play it on a through a PA system.

The problem with the Vogone 1 version I made was that it ripped out far too much background and bass. But I am pleased to say that I have made a very useable wav file which has lots of drums and bass still intact. There is a degree of the original vocal left in, but not enough that you couldn't sing over.

I shall attempt more of the previous Vogone 1 efforts so I can compare results. But its looking good now. Very easy to use too.


Had to close and restart Vogone2 to start processing a new song after Writing File. I loaded up a new wav to process and couldn't get any sound - even though the slider on Play Location was moving - until I closed Vogone2 and restarted then it all worked fine.
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Last edited by Brian Corr; July 14th, 2001 at 03:27 PM.
  #38  
Old July 17th, 2001, 11:55 PM
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Vogone Next Release is now available!

Come and get it... and make sure you get the totally re-written manual. I hope it clearly explains how to adjust each control. I think some of you are confused how to use them. I know I was when Ricardo gave me the first Vogone 2 copy. I said the same thing I hear from some of you... it just ain't workin' for me!

Please post in the new thread when you are running and what your results are.
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