I can't stand it

[BigMike]

I got to talk about it, This DJ I know got himself set up with a computer program. I know him so I get to pop up there and play with it. I'm not sure what program it is but it is different. The name, that I can't remember, sounded like it was a guy and girls name. Anyway, There are two things about this KJ that bother me.

One, the program was sold to him with 30,000 songs. I love going there because he has almost any song I want to try but it bugs me that this 30,000 song list is being sold to every KJ in my area. There are at least four KJs with the same list. I believe there are more now but I am not sure.

Second, There is still the same amount of down time now as there was before. Before, he would call up the singer, go looking for the CD, call the singer again, singer would come up, then he would put the CD in and start the song. Now, he is not on the stage when the singer is finished, some times he lets the singer come up because they are on his rotation and then they both talk together and figure out what song they are going to sing, he types it in, and the singer sings. I hate dead air, dead air is a bunch of singers waiting to sing. you match that with Dance music with no dancers and it's time to find a new Bar with a different KJ. This guy is a friend of mine but making suggestions to him is taken as an insult so I don't do it.

There is a reason these programs have a list that holds the singes and what they are singing. These programs should eliminate a ton of down time. Yet it seems to give, at least this KJ, more time to mingle.

Just a GRRRRRR session. Hi everyone <wave> I'm finally done entering the CDs and have been enjoying the free time. Soon I will get back into KJing again. Been a while, kept up the music, but not the gigs. I still need to update my music but I'm not that far behind the times. I do have some Maroon 5 lol

[admin]

The 30,000 songs he purchased are ALL illegal. Turn him in to the US Marshall. PERIOD!

He is NOT YOUR friend! You may consider him a friend, but it is not mutual with what he has done in your territory. He is ILLEGAL as are the others and YOU will soon be facing a dwindling market to pay for your services. Act now to stem this illegal tide in your territory.

That's what we are all fighting for; every song purchased and fully within the law. There are a lot of things going on in the industry that will probably bring down the law on bootleggers. Be forewarned in advance.

A major producer is now going after the bar/venue owners as they have assets to loose. He is making it clear that if they hire a KJ with illegal songs, they will pay. We'll see what comes from that, but it is underway in one state now.

Protect your territory from illegal bootleggers. The guy doesn't sound like anyone in this Forum would go to his show a second time. He is NOT an asset to the industry, as you have pointed out.

Sorry for the negatives, but it really crisps me when I hear of the bootlegging going on now.

As to the software he is using, we expect them to be off the market within 6 months.

[BigMike]

Considering, since before Christmas, I have been uploading CDs with every spare free time I had, to load 500+ CDs into a program I bought, Researched, and learned how to use, (yes in that order.) Having someone pay $2k and get the computer, the library, and no training. It does bother me. What bothers me even more is, I have not been a KJ for a while now. I told him I was getting this program and entering my music into the computer and since I told him I was doing it and now, he bought the computer and library and has been using it. Like he wanted to be better then me even though I have not been in the bussiness or a rival to him in a long time.

I did talk to him about being illegal and he told me that the 30,000 songs were part his (his collection) part others (their collection) and if they get raided they would just get all of the CDs together and give to the guy who is being investigated. The only way to end this is to have them all be investigated at the same time. It is legal to combine several people's libraries to make one big library and they all can use that library as long as they do not have gigs at the same time.... we all know they do and that's where it is illegal.

[George]

Originally Posted by BigMike

It is legal to combine several people's libraries to make one big library and they all can use that library as long as they do not have gigs at the same time....

Just where did you get that from....him?

George

[DJYale]

*cough*e-bay*cough*

Think I may have seen this one. Saw a system on e-bay for sale that included the aformentioned player (pretty sure I know exactly which one).

The ad was for the system, a player, a library of KJ songs and a library of DJ selections. Said he had been using it for shows, and you *cough*had to delete the songs if you didn't own the disks*cough*. (They put that in because it's an e-bay rule that if you don't you can't sell it through e-bay.)

Funny part was, saw like 6 of the systems all from the same seller with the same description. Musta been a hell of a show to need 6 systems and all ...

[BigMike]

It is legal to copy your library of music as a back up and use the back up and save the original. So if you have four people do that and share their library and none of them use it at the same time how would that differ from the same four people sharing the CDs? If they do not have copies of their music but four people share their CDs there would be no way for them to play at the same time only one of them have the CDs. Now we are talking about using the backup that is on everyone's computer. if any of them have a gig at the same time then they are illegal... that's all I am saying.


Back to the point they are all having gigs at the same time and that's illegal as hell.

[George]

Originally Posted by BigMike

It is legal to copy your library of music as a back up and use the back up and save the original. So if you have four people do that and share their library and none of them use it at the same time how would that differ from the same four people sharing the CDs?

Sharing is illegal. File swapping is illegal.

I think you may be confusing that with not being able to use an original and a back up at two different shows, which is also illegal.

If you using a "shared" cd, then you can not produce the original cd that you OWN.

YOU must own the original of the back up cd you are using. YOU must own it, not the guy across the street, and if you can't produce it, everything you own related to KJ/DJ'ing including your home computers can be confiscated.

George

[BigMike]

I know what you are saying but the law isn't writen that tightly. If you and I were to make a deal that you would work Saturday thru Tuesday and I would work Wedneday thru Friday and we shared our library we could make a case if we had to.

The case would be. If I was using original CDs and had no copies of it and you had Original CDs with no copies. How would it be illegal if you gave me your CDs and I used them and then when it was your turn I would give you your's back and mine and you used them.

If it was a matter of how many backup copies there were then it would be illegal for me to make a backup of my hard drive with my library on it because I had the original and two back ups. the same could be said with you having my music on your hard drive with your music and me having my music and your's on my hard drive. As long as we had that agreement AND we did not overlap gigs. I bet to be safe and legal though we would have to have our music seperated in different folders to prove who's is who's. You know they are not doing THAT!! lol

[George]

Originally Posted by BigMike

I know what you are saying but....

There isn't any BUT about it. It is either illegal or it isn't and no amount of rationalization will change that.

The case you made in the rest of your post is file swapping, and that's illegal.

I'm sorry, but you cannot use my discs on Friday night and me use yours on Saturday, and be legal. If you really believe that and are willing to gamble on being able to "make a case if we had to".....good luck.

Take care(literally),

George

[BigMike]

Your saying that me using your CDs, not copys of your CDs is illegal? Would using your equipment be illegal too? What about DJing for you then I am using your music and your equipment and making money off it too. If I DJ for you and add my music to your selection is that illegal? then the next week I need you to fill in for me at one of my gigs. Would it be illegal for you to add your music to the selection while you were there?

Don't get me wrong, what bothers me about what these guys are doing is one guy is selling bootleg copies of music to everyone in Central Oregon. Making it cheaper for those guys to run a show then in turn charging less to do a show. This all spiraling down to the fact that honest KJs are losing money staying honest. Not to mention the program this guy is adding to the computer is also a boot leg, so is the OS the computer is operating on.

Most likely this guy is building the exact model computer and putting a ghost image of the original. The music is illegal, the Microsoft XP license is illegal, the host software is illegal, and any other software loaded on it like Word and Excel. This guys is building the computer for dirt cheap because the most expensive part of building a computer is the software and OS and selling it for $2000.00. More then it would caost to buy a brand spanking new PC with all the trimings. I buy a CD-G for $9.99 to $32.00 lets say the $9.99 CD has 10 songs that's a buck a song that's $30.000 worth of music these DJs are buying for $2k THAT'S Illegal.

[George]

[quote=BigMike]Your saying that me using your CDs, not copys of your CDs is illegal? Would using your equipment be illegal too? What about DJing for you then I am using your music and your equipment and making money off it too. If I DJ for you and add my music to your selection is that illegal? then the next week I need you to fill in for me at one of my gigs. Would it be illegal for you to add your music to the selection while you were there?[/QUOTE=BigMike]

You using either my original or my copies of cd's for a show is file swapping and illegal. You don't own them. You committed the crime, and I abetted it. We both go down. No dumping it on the other guy.

All I own on a cd is the 50 cent piece of plastic it's written on. All I buy is the right to play it for my own use. I own none of the content, which is copywritten. Even regarding the 50 cent piece of plastic itself all I bought is the right to play it, or save it, or destroy it. I cannot duplicate it. That breaks the patent laws.

You using my equipment is not illegal. I own my equipment and am violating no copywrite laws if I choose to lend it out.

If you are DJing for me, I am paying you to act as my agent either as an employee or contract labor, and you can use my equipment and cd's.

You cannot add any of your cd's to my selection unless you are willing to give me the original cd's. They then become my property. Otherwise, it's illegal. The same in reverse if I'm filling in for you.


Take care,

George

[admin]

Originally Posted by BigMike

I know what you are saying but the law isn't writen that tightly. If you and I were to make a deal that you would work Saturday thru Tuesday and I would work Wedneday thru Friday and we shared our library we could make a case if we had to.

The case would be. If I was using original CDs and had no copies of it and you had Original CDs with no copies. How would it be illegal if you gave me your CDs and I used them and then when it was your turn I would give you your's back and mine and you used them.

If it was a matter of how many backup copies there were then it would be illegal for me to make a backup of my hard drive with my library on it because I had the original and two back ups. the same could be said with you having my music on your hard drive with your music and me having my music and your's on my hard drive. As long as we had that agreement AND we did not overlap gigs. I bet to be safe and legal though we would have to have our music seperated in different folders to prove who's is who's. You know they are not doing THAT!! lol

To my understanding from discussing this with one of the top digital rights Lawyers in the world whom I pay, and discussions with the copyright office lawyers directly, the OWNER of the disc can make a DISC backup copy, or FORMAT SHIFT to a hard drive copy.

It is ONLY the OWNER of the purchased discs granted the rights under copyright law. As George said, you don't own the songs. You paid a license to use one copy of the song, and only one copy with one backup. To transfer those copies to any other person IS ILLEGAL!

There is no question about that. Backup... means just that; backup to prevent loss. Swapping under any condition is ILLEGAL!

[Wallymeister]

My two cents,

I don't think BigMike is talking about file sharing.(per se) I think he's suggesting joint business venture. There is no copyright law that prevents DJ's or KJ's from joining two businesses (or assets) to one. OK let's say I own 100 disc's (originals) and you own 100 disc's and I want to KJ on Friday night and you want to KJ on Tuesday night so we enter into a joint venture as one KJ company if you will. We split the take. Where is the illegal in that? I totally agree with the pirating thing, it's not good for anyone except the one's doing it. (or at least untill they get caught) The same money is spent for 200 original discs and the same discs are being used for one gig at a time. Not rocket science. In a court of law that would be reasonable if you could prove as such. In a court of law you are suppose to innocent untill proven guilty, aren't you?

You and me go into a Music store and you put in $10 and I put in $10 and we buy a $20 disc. We both have rights to that disc. (the original) Only one backup can be made still. Where is that scenario illegal as long as the original goes back and forth between the two of us? Copyright law does not state that I can't sell this original CD on Ebay or give it away for that matter. It just says that I can't sell it or give it away and keep a backup for myself.

Entering into a joint business venture can be tricky in itself but that would only apply if you were ask to prove your ownersship of all discs and then your business partner wanted to deny a partnership. So yes that would create a problem but otherwise..............I don't think so.

Ok, maybe 4 cents
Wally

[George]

Nothing was said about it being a joint venture, not one word.

Each of the parties in his scenarios had their own library. Nothing said about joint ownership, not one word.

George

[Wallymeister]

George,
Maybe you can tell me what the difference is of two people combining their resources for a single business. As long as all original discs can be produced when needed. If it's just a verbal joint venture, it's still a joint venture. This is just common sense. There is always going to be a way to cheat the system but 2 people, 3 people, all original discs is not cheating anyone. It's the copies that hurt.
I would have thought that maybe since you were so adamant about what was being said that you yourself might have mentioned, "unless it's a joint business venture". If indeed "joint venture" is the magic words that make it different.

Wally

[George]

Wally,

There was no need for me to say "unless it's a joint business venture". There was no mention of joint venture in any manner in any of BigMikes posts, and my response to you was very specific in those regards.

Regarding joint venture I think you're misinformed.

If investigated by the authorities, just saying it was a joint venture would not hunt for a minute without any documentation that the parties were presenting themselves to the public as a joint venture in some manner such as advertising, business cards, partnership tax returns, etc.

It has to have all the trappings of a joint venture in the day to day conduct of it's business.

Don't know why you're choosing to get arguementative for no reason. Why don't you get nitpicky with ADMIN also? He didn't say "unless it's a joint business venture" either, did he? No, joint business venture was not the thrust of the conversations.

George

I haven't seen the name of the software been used mentioned anywhere in this thread, so I won't mention it either (assuming it's the one I'm thinking of). If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's been around for a long time and sells for around $40 (no library included). But let's face it, it's not a complete hosting program like Hoster. Without Winamp (freeware) and a couple of plugins (again freeware) installed, it does absolutely nothing. You have to have misgivings about paying for software that relies on the presence of a freeware product for its functionality. Then to cap it all off, there are no help files provided with the program. Sure, it's cheap. But remember, you get what you pay for.

[Karaoke John]

Hi All, All this legal talk is making my Head spin. Before I bought my Laptop and the Hoster Program. I considered buying a Cavs Machine JB 199, It was advertised with 10 to 20 thousand songs on it for about 3500.00 dollars on up. Are Those illegal cause they aren't giving you the disks they are preloaded on a Hard drive. Course I didn't by that system They had weird songs in Vietnamese, and Korean on them but they did advertise having the complete sets of Chartbuster 450's I, II, III, and IV along with SC foundation, and Music Maestro. Which to buy would equal more than the machine itself.
Then there is the Computers that have all the software preloaded and they
no longer give you original disks, It is all very confusing . I certainly think that bootlegging is wrong. I have back ups that I have used for yrs due to some of my disks being damaged beyond fixing. But I never sell copys and that is what I think we are talking about. I guess If we really wanted to be techinical It could be deemed Illegal to play the singers private disks during a show. Yet I have and so has everyone else. I certainly have taken mine to other shows and sang off them because I am used to a certain disk. Anyway I hope that Big Mike gets up and running or has already done so and Has the best show in his area, "If You Play It They will Sing" Hoster is the Best and I'm Sure that Mike will blow those other KJ's Off the Map. When everyone hears about the quality of his show's.
John