Legal or illegal

[muzicman144]

RandyMcCharles, According to the KIAA, there are no "legal" download sites. Stictly using their guidelines, and not my opinion, any files downloaded on the so called "custom cdg" websites are illegal. Those "private" stored files you have, by KIAA guidlines, are illegal, as anyone could label every file "private" and make the same claim.
Having said this doesn't mean i agree, when, in fact, i disagree with the KIAA on most stances. To encourage one to inform on another for their own gain is wrong. That is what they are doing.
I would like to add a funny observation (to me), when i first heard about karaoke i was doing shows (not karaoke)with "tracks", no words. I googled karaoke on the web and one result showed up, "A japanese flower that......., i forget the rest. No sale sites, no song ads, nothing pertaining to karaoke music. This tells you i have done this a long time and there is no way i could be 100% legal after all this time nor have i kept my receipts.
Seems such a shame one will have to "make friends" and not "rock the boat" or someone will tell on them.
muzicman144

[RandyMcCharles]

That sounds like exactly the wrong way to pursue the problem.
1. The club often has no idea where the Kj gets their music or how legit it is.
2. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Kj may have bought music in good faith, when it was not legit.

To me the problem appears to be KJs who buy illegitate music that is obviously illegitimate, knowing full well it is ilegitimate. So the solution is:
First: a legal body must recognize and prosecute such activity.
Second: anyone, orgainized or not, must report such activity to the legal body.

What KIAA apears to being doing is unsanctioned vigilatism, which is never a good thing.

To me the best approach is to encourage singers to boycott criminal KJs. Until the problem becomes big enough to attract the criminal justice system there is not much more we can do. I, as a singer, do not support bars or Kjs who are obviously abusing the industry.

[ddouglass]

The KIAA actually does not pursue the pirates. They turn the information over to the production companies to pursue it. I am not a member just to clarify, but I do see some use for them. If you are a KJ or a venue and you "join" their membership then you are certified as being legal, will not be hassled by them (or sued), and will be listed for venue's to pick from to make sure they stay legal. Venues can also join and have the same kind of protection.
As far as reporting pirates I am sure that some problems with vendictive KJs will happen, but for the most part if the report proves true then they have to get legal or lose everything. With a fine of up to $150,000 per song it would be smart to be legal and a whole lot less costly. If it is false then you are in the clear.
I haven't joined as yet but I am considering it.

Randy, Sweet Georgia Brown is out of business as well as Priddis and several others and it usually was because of not paying for the rights to ASCAP or BMI or SESAC.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

RandyMcCharles, According to the KIAA, there are no "legal" download sites. Stictly using their guidelines, and not my opinion, any files downloaded on the so called "custom cdg" websites are illegal.

Just got an email today that Chartbuster will be beta testing their digital download in about a month. Then will open it to everyone after testing. This would be a site that would be legal as they will only have their songs. Sound Choice has been saying for months that they were too, but that got split to a separate company name for theirs. Both are founding members of KIAA so I don't think they are a rogue organization.

[RandyMcCharles]

I just went to the KIAA web site and looked around. At first glance I don't see a problem. Information is always good. From what I read in the posts here I go the sense that they weren't after big fish, but after any fish, including those who don't even know they are are fish. So I get the sense that they don't believe that individual KJs can regulate themselves. These guys set the rules and anyone who thinks different is wrong. To me that is a police state and I don't like it. If they really wanted to accomplish something they should focus on obvious offenders, such as Kjs buying 50,000 song hard drives for $300 and not worry about the KJ who has a couple of questionable disks, as that is where the real problem is.

I am surprised to hear that 'any music download' is illegal. My uderstanding is that the activity is still being debated. If a manufacturer agrees to allow a vendor to sell music via download, and the buyer pays royalities, licensing, etc. that get passed on to the appropriate parties, I don't see how a body like KIAA can claim it is illegal. One of the largest outlets in the UK produces its own music and sell it along with several other manufacturers products as orginal produced discs, custom disks, or downloads, and licensing looks very legit. If it is indeed not legit, yet elephants in the industry operate this way, then the whole industry is in a lot of trouble.

[ddouglass]

Randy keep in mind that KIAA is only a US organization and does not effect the UK. I think they will have to amend their statement soon especially since Chartbust is getting ready for downloading.

[RandyMcCharles]

I continue to poke around the KIAA website and what I cannot find is a list of their members. This absense prevents me from knowing how legitimate they are! I am also wondering how I am supposed to know if the Kj at the local pub has been certified by them as legitimate. Is there a sign in the window? If so, how do I know if that the sign is not a fake. It would be a real hoot to nark on a Kj only to discover that at one time the Kj was certified by them but now has a bootleg song.

Anyway, I am impressed by the general information on the site, but can find little evidence there that they are actively persecuting Kjs or clubs.

All this said, I live in Canada and what I know about legalities here is that professional Kjs with hard drives need to be audited annually and prove they have the disks that have been copied to their hard drives. If they fail the audit they lose their license. That said, I have no idea what the auditors consider to be a legitimate manufactured disk.

[RandyMcCharles]

But do they persecute US Kjs who purchase tracks from the UK? Now that ALL Canadian manufacturers have shut down due to licensing fees rising 400% in this country over the past few years, I buy exclusively from the US, UK, and Australia.

[muzicman144]

Dale, I did see where both Chartbuster and Sound Choice are starting the custom download. I also see that Doowoop.com, where i buy all my disc, offer a custom cd called Proburn. Don't know the legality, but they are burning different manufacturers tracks on to one cd at a per song price, claiming they have an agreement with these companies to do so. I wondered why they could and CB and SC wasn't, and they have been doing it for quite a while. They are the cheapest i have found and charge no shipping.
There is no way either CB or SC would be rogue organizations, but, as founding members of KIAA, along with Stellar Records, and apparently one "in house" Kj on their board, I believe this is the wrong approach to the karaoke problem. As you stated, to join makes a KJ certified as legit and will not be hassled by KIAA. How do they certify you and what keeps the "pirate" from joing and being guaranteed not to be hassled. As most of us stated, we are not 100% legal, how, for instance, would you get certified???? I could always "clean up" a computer, install 3000 legal songs and be free from worry if we use that avenue, just as the "pirate" could do. Makes No sense.
muzicman144

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

That sounds like exactly the wrong way to pursue the problem.
1. The club often has no idea where the Kj gets their music or how legit it is.

Business owners have a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to make sure their employees,customers and vendors are acting in a legal manner, especially once they become aware of it. No diferent than if the business was turning a blind eye to drug dealing and prostitution.

2. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Kj may have bought music in good faith, when it was not legit.

If you buy a stolen car from a licensed dealer it doesn't make the car any less stolen and subject to confiscation. Your only recourse would then be to sue the dealer

To me the problem appears to be KJs who buy illegitate music that is obviously illegitimate, knowing full well it is ilegitimate. So the solution is:
First: a legal body must recognize and prosecute such activity.
Second: anyone, orgainized or not, must report such activity to the legal body.

Agreed.

What KIAA apears to being doing is unsanctioned vigilatism, which is never a good thing.

The KIAA is just another trade organization created to educate the public and protect the intellectual property rights of it's members.

To me the best approach is to encourage singers to boycott criminal KJs. Until the problem becomes big enough to attract the criminal justice system there is not much more we can do. I, as a singer, do not support bars or Kjs who are obviously abusing the industry.

. Most singers in my neck of the woods don't care anything about piracy. Half of 'em ask me why I don't download from the sharing sites.It's not their ox being gored (although if they would analyze the situation they would see it is their ox). I boycott them just to make a moral statement but I have no illusions that they miss my business at all.
Karaoke piracy is such a tiny drop in the bucket relative to the economy I doubt (US) government will ever take any meaningfull action. Music and film piracy is a much bigger problem and you can see the government is doing very little about it. What little is done is being done by the RIAA (another trade organization.)
The two political parties are so busy fighting for power and trying to buy votes by outspending the other it's unlikely that underfunded law enforcement agencies will ever give us a second look.

Sam

[RandyMcCharles]

Yes, apathy is a problem even outside of Canada. I hang with singers who won't support criminals, but I fear we are the minority.

The problem with crime is that it grows to the point where it breaks the market. At one time Canada had 5 karaoke manufacturers. But license fees grew, obstensibly to offset shrinking revenue due to piracy, to the point where one after another could no longer stay in business. Canadian made CDGs sold (and what is left on the shelves) sell for 2-3 times as much as imports. And as been said, how can a Kj who spends thousands of dollars buying current music compete with a Kj who spends next to nothing. At some point (hopefully far in the future) the legitimate Kjs have to throw in the towel leaving only thieves and rouges in business, at which point manufacturers have to shut down because most of their product is stolen instead of paid for.

So I understand where KIAA is coming from and I appreciate the information on their web site. What I don't see is how their method of enforcement is working. I did eventually find on their site map links to who their members are, but the site stopped feeding pages before I could take a look. I would like to see them go after the big fish and give the little fish a pass. The mostly legitimate Kjs already have a tough enough time without having to do due dilligence on every single track in their book (though I suppose KIAA will vet their book when they join) whereas nipping this $300 loaded HD in the bud can be a great deterent to the spread of blatent piracy.

[muzicman144]

Mindonstrike (Quote) The KIAA is just another trade organization created to educate the public and protect the intellectual property rights of it's members..

Sam, i don't believe the KIAA is just another trade organization created to edcucate anyone. Their main philosophy appears to say if you join, we will certify you as a legit KJ and being a member, we won't hassle you. How? And by what process is one to be certified? Will carrying a KIAA card and presenting it to a prospective client enhance your employment chances? It was organized by the producers of karaoke tracks who are asking their members to be the organizations informers. Since most KJs in this forum are admittedly not 100%, It would seem membership will be severly limited if all are completely honest about it. How many would lie about legitamacy to join???
Your comment about turning the blind eye to drug dealing and prostitution is exactly what our current law enforcement does to create informers. No difference here, IMHO.
Also, I have never needed anyone to protect my intellectual rights, and hope i never do
Just an opinion
muzicman144

[RandyMcCharles]

The KIAA web site came back and I go to look at thier members list. I was underwhelmed. This is the information:

At this time we only have our Participating Karaoke Labels listed.
Our KJ/Host, Venues, and Distribution members will be listed soon.

AUDIO STREAM KARAOKE
CHARTBUSTER KARAOKE
POCKET SONGS, INC.
SOUND CHOICE
STELLAR RECORDS, INC.
STINGRAY MUSIC USA INC

Sound Choice is listed with a NY address, but haven't they left the country? How old is this information? Are they not listing Kjs, Venues, and Distributors because they don't have much worth listing. While I understand that the labels would join becuase they have a vested interest in selling their product, I have to ask how much buy-in has occurred further down the chain.

[muzicman144]

Randy, Audio Stream is the "in house" Kj who Host the big Karaoke contest backed by these same companies. The rest are track manufacturers. When i last checked, SC was in Charlotte, NC. Didn't know they moved. In fact, on their website, they are still listed as in Charlotte.
Muzicman144

[billyo]

does KIAA charge dues to become a member, if they do then to me its a protection racket, if you pay your dues they wont' bother you? i heard that before, who are they to say that you're legit or not, is it because you're not a member or someone ( a sore kj ) called them to check up on other kj's ?

[RandyMcCharles]

Ah. Since they listed Audio Stream with the labels, that may be their only non-label member.
As for Sound Choice, I just went to their web site and see they are still listed as NY. I was told by our local karaoke store that they moved to pay lower national-mandated license fees, their their packaged disks now come from the UK and their custom disks from Australia. The web site does link to Australia for custom CDGs, but I'll have to ask them if they are sure about the UK part.

[ddouglass]

If you check the membership page it tells you that you would have a specific time to get completely legit. They don't specifically say there but it appears that after that time period they are going to audit you to make sure and probably will do so on an periodic basis (annual, bi-annual?).
Check there news page and you will see that there were lawsuits filed against 15 KJs and venues in Pheonix, AZ in July.
You guys are all looking at the negative instead of giving them a chance to get going and see whether it will work or not.

[RandyMcCharles]

I am curious if the AZ suits resulted from KIAA's work or if they are just reporting it. I am also curious if these abusers were blatent or 'mostly legit'.

I think most of this thread is people asking questions (especially me) about KIAA rather than bashing them. Information is a good thing. Living in Canada I have ignored them, but when the topic came up I found I wanted to know more. I respect everything they are doing that is good for the industry, but like others have said, I am concerned if they are delivering a different form of abuse.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

If you check the membership page it tells you that you would have a specific time to get completely legit. They don't specifically say there but it appears that after that time period they are going to audit you to make sure and probably will do so on an periodic basis (annual, bi-annual?).
Check there news page and you will see that there were lawsuits filed against 15 KJs and venues in Pheonix, AZ in July.
You guys are all looking at the negative instead of giving them a chance to get going and see whether it will work or not.

Dale, if you check further in those Arizona cases, you'll see that a organization called The Karaoke Alliance was started recently in Phoenix, which has now emerged as KIAA. This Alliance, as i will call it, started to do just what KIAA intends to do. Now look at the cases they have brought to front just in the Arizona area where they started. Seems it's a little out of hand for just one city in the usa. Just imagine if this is to be the scenario nationwide, It'll make big brother look bad. This looks like a shakedown. It'll be something to see how it works itself out in Phoenix.
As for periodic checks on the legality of its members, they will have to employ a hell of a lot of checkers to do the whole country. And as i said, to have "clean" CPU for one to audit is no problem for most if one chooses that route.
I don't intend to Bash the KIAA, it just appears they are on a mission they'll never accomplish, backed by self interest companies that really have only their concerns in mind.
muzicman144

[muzicman144]

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