rate of pay around the country.

[jwear]

For those who skipped over the subject line of this post; let me say again... I'm simply playing devil's advocate when posting this point of view.

Musikman (sorry if I misspelled your name, but I think you know who I'm referring to) made such a valid point, and I agree completely with what he so clearly stated in his post. There are so many varying levels of KJ's and the equipment they provide that it is almost a moot point to discuss what a reasonable rate of pay should be. Across the US and abroad demographics will affect maximum gig rates. Market saturation from city to city seem to be the most common factor in lower rates being paid to even the most experianced, talented and equipment endowed KJ.

I have been in the entertainment business in one form or another for over 20 years. That might suggest I'm a really old guy, but I'm only 41, LOL. As for karaoke, I know a lot of users here have much more time in grade than I do, but that not the point, nor is how long someone has been a KJ a real factor in how much they are worth.

I feel this thread still has value. I haven't visited this thread in a long time mainly because it has little value to me personally, but...

... New KJ's; both gifted entertainers who are well funded and skilled in live sound mixing and PA configuration and the lesser skilled poorly funded KJ's share common interests and goals. Most all of us got into doing this for similar reasons. Passion for music I believe leads the top 3 reasons for wanting to become a KJ. Let's face it; some people "suck" at performing and make even less effective KJ's. But as a long time advocate of encouraging everyone to try hard to achieve personal inbetterment; I say "Sing", and "sing from your heart".. The more you feel the encouragement from others the more you will learn to enjoy what you have always been passionate about.

OK, I'm gonna brag for a bit... I'm one of the lucky ones... Lucky in many ways. I run limited shows compared to years past due to dealing with a bout with cancer last year and perhaps that has changed or enlightened my perspective a bit. Surviving the past 18months is what makes me luckier than anything else, but KJ-wise I have been voted the #1 or #2 KJ in Nashville TN for the past 6 years. Not just my company, but me personally and I take pride in that. Nashville is filled with talented singers and talented KJ's, so I've been lucky.

If this thread survives, I believe it will do so to help the struggling new comers. It's a little intimidating getting started and one of the biggest question a new KJ will have to determine is "What am I worth?"

My advise to new KJ's is this:
As with any job you have ever had, or will have; if you make you "boss" look good and make them money, you will be worth more. That doesn't mean you will make more, but you will be "worth" more. Don't be afraid to ask for more money when you "know" you are the reason the business is thriving. Work closely with all owners and managers to improve business practices. The number one reason a bar owner/manager hires any entertainer is to increase sales. You must justify your existance and unlike a job selling shoes or working in an office, your successes and failures will be judged on a weekly basis.

Be consistant and help your employer to understand how your presence in thier business will require several weeks of consistancy to prove itself. Always greet customers and always be friendly; even with people you don't necessarily like.

You are in "Show Business". You will be in "Character" at times. That's your job. There will be pros and cons to it, but if you stay the course the pros will out wiegh the cons in the long run.

Pay structure if realitive. If you charge too much your life span may be shorter than you think unless you really are "that good". It's all based on how much money do you make for the venue you are playing.

Wow.... Did anyone read all of this long diatribe? All I really meant to say was... Keep this thread open for new comers. They have more questions than you think. As an alternative, a new thread for new KJ's to include topics covered in this thread could be helpful and perhaps more useful.

Happy Holidays to all!

[alanross]

First, let me thank muzicman144 for his kind words. It's nice to be visited and acknowledged by our peers. Many thanks!

I joined this thread in January, 2003 and have found it interesting to see that the rates vary very little across the spectrum. Basically, people are getting between $100.00 - $300.00 a night no matter where you go. Perhaps a new thread discussing how to maximize your earning potential?

I find it interesting that KJ's, as a whole, are still making less money than bands, yet often Karaoke brings in twice the crowd. It's so frustrating that bands get paid more, "because there's four of them in the band and you're just one person." That kind of thinking is so indescribably stupid it makes me want to scream. My new response to that is, "Would you pay four bartenders more money to do less business than one good bartender could do?" That usually gets the point across, but it's not the bands who are our competition. It's the industry we've chosen.

Face it, the dirty little secret to Karaoke is that there is only so much you can do to differentiate yourself. Better hosts, better song selection and better sound will only get you so far. After that, just having Karaoke available at a bar will bring in the customers. Bar owners have learned that there is a break even point, where if the KJ charges too much, the bar would make better money if they buy their own equipment and music and pay one of their staff a nominal fee to run it.

I've traveled around and viewed a lot of Karaoke. Most of us probably have. We've all seen the really lame host with the horrible sound system and 500 songs to choose from, but the shows are still packed. The types of people singing in those clubs are different, but they are still people spending money in the bar.

No matter how bad the show is, if the people are spending money, the bar is happy and they don't really care about quality. As a host, I prefer a quality audience, but the bar doesn't care and that effects my rate of pay. I will always continue to try to provide the highest quality show, because I prefer to make money at the high end of the scale, but further increases in price would eventually be my own undoing.

Close the thread, leave it open - doesn't matter to me. If I have time, or if anyone else is inclined, let's open a thread that targets new KJs and KJs looking to improve their standing and discuss ways to provide quality shows that make us, as professionals, more valuable.

- Alan Ross

[tonedeaf]

Touche Jwear
My feelings exactly.
Iv'e been in the business for 10 years, and at times wonder am I charging to much or to little.
I base it on the venue, if a bar or night club is trying it for the first time I tell them that consistency is the most important way to build a regular customer base.
I always charge less for this until they (bar owner) are making the money to where I can charge my regular rate.
Have a great musical day
Jeff

[SteveWalker]

Even the best KJ's making the most money are still making only peanuts so it's just not much worth the time and trouble IMHO.

[jwear]

All great comments... Alan said more clearly what I ran on and on about, and made some other greatly insightful points about "costing yourself out of a job".

I have seen this several times and even sold off a few of my rigs to bar owners. If you charge too much, even if the business you have built yourself supports your rate, bar owners will begin to consider buying their own equipment and getting one of their popular "singing waitresses" a shot at your job. Happens all time.

Here's an interesting approach to making more money and absorbing some risk. I took a gig at of all places a "Lesbian Bar". This was a different breed of audience, I can assure you, but by snapping into character a bit a good KJ/entertainer can work with just about any crowd.

On traditionally one of the slowest nights of the week (Sunday) we pack in approximately 150 people and have a rotation of about 30-40 singers throughout the night. The bar agreed to pay me absolutely nothing. I agreed to build them a successful Sunday night for 100% of the cover charge of $3. Yep, on a Sunday night I take in over $450 at the door and about $200 more in tips. Due to the type of venue, I decided to hire a female co-host and can easliy afford to pay her more than she'll make anywhere else.

Most bars however won't handle a cover charge, but venues such as these are accustomed to them and they are "Cash Cows!" If you can handle the pressure and the risk of building the business, they can pay off well!

[STE4funguy]

It just blows my mind that people are willing to work so cheap. As a company, I have overhead ie: TAXES, INSURANCE, ADVERTISING, RENT, ETC... Let alone the cost of equipment, music, gas, employee's. Even if you are a hobbiest and are not paying taxes, you should have insurance and vehicle expenses. $200 is the lowest price for a 4 hour show and thats only on weekdays and if they book weekly for an entire year! Just think of the time you spend buying your music, importing it into your system, printing books, and all the other little things it takes to do this. So if you are only charging $100 - $150 for a show you end up working for $3.50 an hour after expenses... You can make more as a greeter at WalMart!

Yes, Karaoke is fun and it is a good time type job, but as a professional, stop selling yourself short.

[gotrich]

150 -175 a week day and 200-225 a weekend is it. mot bars wont pay more than that. i wont work for less than that..and where I am from som of the bars only make 400-500 a night on the register so when you pay 150 and only bring in 400 thats not much left to re buy booze or order more food... lots of small corn filed towns..ecinomics plays a big part

[bryant]

Originally Posted by STE4funguy

It just blows my mind that people are willing to work so cheap. As a company, I have overhead ie: TAXES, INSURANCE, ADVERTISING, RENT, ETC... Let alone the cost of equipment, music, gas, employee's. Even if you are a hobbiest and are not paying taxes, you should have insurance and vehicle expenses. $200 is the lowest price for a 4 hour show and thats only on weekdays and if they book weekly for an entire year! Just think of the time you spend buying your music, importing it into your system, printing books, and all the other little things it takes to do this. So if you are only charging $100 - $150 for a show you end up working for $3.50 an hour after expenses... You can make more as a greeter at WalMart!

Yes, Karaoke is fun and it is a good time type job, but as a professional, stop selling yourself short.

Yes, BUT,if you are working in the same place and guaranteed a gig or two every week in the same place and can store your stuff there, or even use their stuff,
you may NOT be working that cheap at all.
I think most of use do charge a bit more for one-time engagements for those special functions( 300 - 500 dollars). If you average this in, yes, my average price along with the 150 guaranteed on tue and wed added in most likely comes to a 200-250 dollar show.
So it all depends how we are answering the poll question, and which type ogigs we are figuring in.
For example, I have a gig on Sun, and wed. that both pay 150. Now is that cheap in a poor depressed area such as Central Maine, maybe, maybe not. Please keep in mind both places are within a mile from my home, I don't play after 12:30 am, one place I use all their equipment, and the other, I leave my stuff there, I get all their extra functions, all my wedding gig recommendations from all their clientele.

NOW THAT IS WORTH IT, ANYONE DISAGREE.
Also, in central Maine you can rent an apartment for 250-350 dollars, and get car insurance for less than 300 dollars a year. Just a measure of the relative cost of living.

I don't work cheap as I also have a regular job that pays a lot more than this, as well. Consider me a hobbyist.

[alanross]

The economics of an area is a great point. It's all relative, but there is definitely a ceiling that I don't see busting through any time soon.

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by STE4funguy

It just blows my mind that people are willing to work so cheap. As a company, I have overhead ie: TAXES, INSURANCE, ADVERTISING, RENT, ETC... Let alone the cost of equipment, music, gas, employee's. Even if you are a hobbiest and are not paying taxes, you should have insurance and vehicle expenses. $200 is the lowest price for a 4 hour show and thats only on weekdays and if they book weekly for an entire year! Just think of the time you spend buying your music, importing it into your system, printing books, and all the other little things it takes to do this. So if you are only charging $100 - $150 for a show you end up working for $3.50 an hour after expenses... You can make more as a greeter at WalMart!

Yes, Karaoke is fun and it is a good time type job, but as a professional, stop selling yourself short.

In a free market you charge what the market will bare. Kudos to you if you live in an area that will pay $200+ a night, but around here if you refused to work for less than $200 you'd soon be hungry and homeless.

It's all about supply and demand, with the smoking ban here driving many bars out of business, there's a glut of karaoke people willing to work if I don't want to.

Sam

[gduns - with the Lord]

Playing Karaoke in Bars is a looser here. I started out doing that about 8 years ago, But I have progressed into doing private parties only.

the way I figure it, i can do 5 nights at a bar @175.00 per night or $875 a week,

or I could do 3 parties a week @$400.00 each for $1200.00

I prefer the 3 parties a week.

If you have a regular bar gig, you are booked, and cant do the parties. I started the parties in November, and as of Now I am booked through February. Doctors, Corporate parties, weddings, and anniversaries.

Referals are a wonderful thing.

[gotrich]

In my way of doing it I have 4 ststems. We do 5 bar gigs a week ( we love our job) then private parties are bookd from our bar gigs and parties we get from our bar gigs. Mybe int he future but the more shows the more I profit and the more I can get. I am working on being the biggest Karaoke comnay in NW indiana and will doo all the bars and all the private parties...so far so good

[bryant]

gotrich: What do they pay you for your regular "bar gigs" that you tend to on a weekly basis?

What do you ask for weddings, How about anniversay parties?

I'll report back to you from Central Maine as well.

[alanross]

As gduns said, private parties really are the best way to maximize profit, but if you live in a very remote area, there are only so many cousins to marry off...

[bryant]

There aren't three privat parties a week that require a KJ/DJ in Waterville, Maine.

I'll have to hit the bars.

[gotrich]

150 on a weekday 200 on a fri or sat
private parties are double a bar gig
weddings are minimum of 600 for the night little extras like movie projectors and extra tear don or set up more wedding run from 6-12 any more or less is extra

some bar gigs in lager not run of the mill bars where they pull in3-7000 a night is 10% of teh take in capped off at 350$ ther are ay to many so called DJ or KJ out here that will work for 50 $ a night its unreal. I am in the NW corner of IN near chicago so I am working ok ..plenty of bars to go around

[bryant]

I see. Nice little set up and plan you have.
Mine are somewhat similar:

Sunday: 8:30-12:30 $150 Bar take: approx. 1000

Wed. : 9:30 - 1 $150 Bar take: approx: 5-600

Fri. : 8 - 12 $175 Bar take: approx. 600

Sat. : 8 -12 $150 Bar take: approx. 6-700.

All places within a mile from house and a mile from each other. I use equip. at one, and have setup at other two. My G/F does these while I do the weddings.

Sometimes I fill in on Tues. and Fridays elsewhere as well for 150 and 175, while my G/F goes where I'm supposed to be.

Weddings: Charge minimum of 450 for five hours within 20 miles. No extra's, just plain DJ work and hosting.
Anniversaries and Birthdays: $300

It's really tough getting more than 150 dollars even on a weekend. There are many more willing to work for 75 - 100.

[kilith]

Well in the world of karaoke it is so easy to go out and buy one system. Burn all the CD's buy a cheepy second system and then charge at both shows much less. Most bars around Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa all will pay 250-300 a night.

Anyway I charge anywhere from $200-300 a night depending on the size of the place I am working at and how many hours I play.

I agree that yes some bars can not pull in the people. However I work in a town of less then 300 people once a month in a small town in Wisconsin. They pay me $300.00 each time I do it there. New Years Eve I will be making about $450-600 because the bars in Wisconsin do not close except for 2 hours on New Years Day which they do somewhere at like 10AM. Last year I played from 9PM to 5:30AM I was dead tired but it was well worth the fun and money that was made that night.

What people need to start doing is busting these people burning or copying CDG's. I do not know how many of you out there can say they have a PURE legal systems. (that means no burned copies of your CDG's and no copied computers of your CDG's running Hoster or other karaoke software.) However these people are a lot of the problem out there. They might have paid what $1000 for a few cheep speakers, power amp, and a $100.00 DVD player that can play CDG's. They invested very little for 3 or 4 systems and did it illegally and then undersell the quality sounding systems with the money in the music library. When you have these type of systems out there only charging from $75-150 a night there is no way a legal system can make it. I have a system that is over 12 years old. Now there are systems all computerized (I am now as well with Hoster) but it is even cheeper to buy a few cheep laptops copy all the files over and even just use Winamp or some other free karaoke hosting software.

So now is there anyone out there that still busts these type of systems? I know of a few in Minnesota with 6 to 8 systems running around that have burned CDG's in their systems.

[bryant]

Kil,
Are you saying that on a slow weekday evening in Minnesota and Wisconsin that they pay 300 dollars.

The only reason why bars in Maine have karaoke during the week is that they wouldn't be able to stay open for a few people stopping in at night to buy a beer or two, so they carry SOME entertainment just to get a few more people in so they won't have to close. So they have karaoke and hope to make a little more than the 150-175 they pay. Otherwise they would be better off closing down during the week.

For example, the bar I play for on Wednesday night said he used to pay his karaoke guy 75 bucks because they already had a good crowd and he would need to make 3 or 4 more hundred to pay a karaoke guy 200 - 300. So he found a guy for 75 bucks.

Several years later, (NOW), he approached me and asked how much I charged for a Wed. Knowing all the above, I told him 150. He said he would try it because he is now getting nobody on Wed. and getting a few more would most likely turn a slight profit.

On weekends, he pays his DJ's , 60 bucks, he makes 1000's, and a better or REAL DJ for 2-300 can't bring in any more anyway.

[kilith]

No most bars do not do weekday karaoke. Most bars have Dart Leagues, Pool Leagues, Shuffle Board Leagues, or other events that go on during the weekdays. Most bars run from Thursday to Sunday if they do Karaoke. On Sunday I was doing it for $150 but I should have changed more then I was there because every Sunday it was packed. Thursday you can get $200 Min Friday and Saturday $300 Min. I will if the bar is smaller and can only bring in a small crowd because of the size charge less.

The problem though in Karaoke and making money that DJ's do is the problem of people doing tons of Illegal things with their systems and running quality karaoke systems out of bars by charging less then $175 a night. There is one company in Minnesota that has 6 systems and I think only one or two of their systems are legal systems. The other systems are copies. They charge from $75 a night to $150 a night. The reason they can is because they are able to make more money using more systems and driving quality out for cheeper money.