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Singers & Hosts Wisdom Post how to be a great karaoke singer or host.

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  #1  
Old June 28th, 2004, 12:11 PM
bobcox- with the Lord bobcox- with the Lord is offline
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Angry Ascap & Bmi

hope someone knows the answer, it seems that every where i play clubs & bars, get contacted by ascap & bmi saying that they need to pay them a fee if they want karaoke. or they will be fined. even tho they have a licence for entertain and the jukbox they still want them to pay for karaoke. average about $700.00 a year. whats up with that ?. BOB
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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2004, 02:45 PM
nreel nreel is offline
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How To Circumvent "Watchdog" Discovery

Don't advertise !

If you have a phone number listed in the Business Pages, do not have an advertisement that tells all your New Gigs, when someone calls and you are unable to answer - Only record their their locations after BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC find out.

If you have a WEB Site, do NOT advertise any NEW Gigs - Only list their locations after BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC find out.

If you have a Newsletter, do not advertise your New Gigs - Only list their locations after BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC find out.

Tell the Venue Not to advertise - Only advertise their location after BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC find out.

Watch who is following you.

Know your regulars and tell them the same - Only give your Regulars the "All Clear To Mention" after BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC find out.

Get Gigs further away from the BIG CITY.

Doing all these things may slow down the discovery of any new Gig by BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC.
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  #3  
Old June 28th, 2004, 03:33 PM
bobcox- with the Lord bobcox- with the Lord is offline
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Unhappy ASCAP/BMI

I don't understand why we or the bar has to pay them at all. the bars have entertain lic, I thought we paid when we purch disc. how many times do they get paid. I am in small town USA. they still bother bar owners. one owner told me they pay ascap because of jukebox. and they told BMI that they were not reqired to pay more than one. she also told them send a list and she would have their songs removed from jukebox. so far no reply from bmi, been over a yr. BOB

PS. can i get lic from ascap so wherever i play wont be bothered ???
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  #4  
Old June 28th, 2004, 06:10 PM
nreel nreel is offline
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BMI, ASCAP, SESAC

Original watchdogs of the BROADCAST industry.

Their, Original JOB, was to monitor Radio (mainly Radio) and Television stations. They would make a list of all that was Played, ON AIR !!, and would COMPARE their lists to Radio Stations Lists to make sure that the Radio Stations were PAYING Royalties to the Record Companies, which would, supposedly, filter down to the Artists...what a Joke.

Since they are NON-PROFIT organizations, they can spend monies collected in whatever way possible...to keep the company afloat, so-to-speak, and is the reason why the ARTISTS end up with a STIPEND amount, if any.

Sort of like you and I starting up a Non-Profit organization and naming ourselves as CEO and CFO and paying ourselves $500,000.00/year salary. Then, of course, we would need offices and office equipment and Personnel to run the NON-PROFIT business. You can see why the Artists get little or nothing while operating on their behalf.

Then, you get a few Liberal Federal Judges in a liberal state like, New York, to win a few TEST cases, so precedents may be set. Then, you go nationwide, with this Racketeering, by hiring local people to turn in the names of Bars and Nightclubs.

I would like to know what RADIO Station AIR WAVES, which are freely RECEIVED by anyone, have to do with SPEAKER generated sound in a Club? Sound that is NOT freely received by the GENERAL PUBLIC.

Anyway, if you go to any of the Websites for BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC, you will see ONLINE forms that show what THEY say is billable. You can check this site for BMI to see what I mean. http://www.bmi.com/licensing/business/whatis.asp

No venue is immune. They have blown this thing so far out proportion that they include any COMMERCIAL entity that uses music.

Have you ever been to Applebee's Restaurant? They have TV's but they DO NOT turn up the SOUND. This way, BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC cannot claim that Applebee's transmitted a PROTECTED Copyrighted WORK in the Applebee's COMMERCIAL environment. Pretty smart way to keep from having to PAY these leeches, while, at the same time, keep Applebee's Sport minded Customers happy because you may still view the TV.

Viewing...hmmmm...how 'bout you and I start a non-profit company and represent the VIDEO side of the industry. That way Venues would have to turn their TV's off or PAY.

I know Clubs that only hire HOME GROWN bands, whose works are NOT listed with any of these leeches. These Clubs, too, do NOT subscribe or Pay Licensing Fees, although the Leeches have insisted that these Clubs "must" have a license and have threatened Legal Action. I would like to see this one in Court.

Well, a little background as to what we are facing in Karaoke.

Take it for what it's worth, it's, most likely, here to stay.

Last edited by nreel; June 28th, 2004 at 06:20 PM.
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  #5  
Old July 13th, 2004, 08:47 AM
admin admin is offline
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IMHO...

It is my understanding that if a venue is already paying the BMI/ASCAP licenses for their facility... IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW THEY PLAY THE MUSIC! Juke box, Radio, Karaoke... all fall under the same PERFORMANCE LICENSE... which is what BMI/ASCAP collects.

There are horror stories in our Forums of BMI/ASCAP "collectors" coming in and demanding payment on the spot.

FIRST make sure they are legitimate BMI/ASCAP representatives. I have no idea how to do that. Maybe someone else will post here what a true BMI/ASCAP "identification card" looks like... a BMP scan of a valid card would be great! If the bum cannot present any identification that looks valid, detain him nder a "Citizens Arrest" and call your Sherriff to make VERY sure the bum knows his presence isn't expected in the future ever again. I expect the Sherriff knows of some "impersonating" laws that might have been broken. He should be locked up in jail if he is impersonating a legal representative of BMI/ASCAP!

SECOND, tell him to INVOICE THE FACILITY! Don't ever pay some "self-proclaimed collector" on the spot. NEVER! EVER! NEVER!!!!!!

If the invoice is valid (I have no idea how to determine that, but maybe some will post it here), then consider paying it.

Uh... if you never get an invoice, then you twarted a thief in the act!

Call BMI/ASCAP! I'm sure they have some guidelines to protect legitimate licensees from unscrupulous "collectors". It is my understanding that some of these collectors may end up pocketing a second collection at the same venue.
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  #6  
Old July 14th, 2004, 10:20 PM
bdayton bdayton is offline
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Can Of Worms....

Quote:
Originally posted by admin
It is my understanding that if a venue is already paying the BMI/ASCAP licenses for their facility... IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW THEY PLAY THE MUSIC! Juke box, Radio, Karaoke... all fall under the same PERFORMANCE LICENSE... which is what BMI/ASCAP collects.
Here's a potential worm.... The songs we play at our shows were written by "A" and were performed in the style of "B" but not actually performed by, or sung by the "B"'s. Why should the "B"'s get any of the royalties? Can a "Style" be copyrighted?

<BG>
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  #7  
Old December 5th, 2004, 08:49 AM
redxiiidave redxiiidave is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Check out BMI, ASCAP and SESAC websites. They explain how they determine how much any location needs to pay yearly for bands, jukebox, karaoke, etc. It's all dependent on what type of entertainment and how many times a week it is offered, as well as the size of the venue. The "music mafia" can be negotiated with, from what I've heard.
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  #8  
Old December 7th, 2004, 12:25 PM
gotrich gotrich is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

I have spent MUCH MUCH time on this. I contacted the big 3. Ascap, BMI, and the RIAA. I was told that the venue must pay a license fee. I fthey do not pay the fee then they will be in trouble. BMI told me that they go after the venue ..ALTHOUGH they can go after the performer of DJ they don't. What they will do is report the insident to RIAA who can come and check your music. So if someone come up wanting money get their credentials and and number and then call Ascap or BMI. Numbers can be obtained from website or through email.

2nd thing...

I was worried about music I download for example from music match jukebox. In the terms it says not for public performance or profit. Here is the catch. BMI & Ascap Only care about the license for the establishment because for example if Elvis is a member of Ascap and Sinatra is with BMI and a bar hires an impersonator of each guy the bar MUST HAVE A LICENSE from BOTH COMPANIES. In our case we play many different artist so a establishment must have a licence. RIAA says that if WE LEGALLY obtain music ie purchase it. They don't mind. (I was told technically a DJ is not allowed to use CD's..because on a CD it says all rights reserved or something to that nature) This is only a safety net so that if your at a show and BMI walks in and the establishment has no license you or the establish ment can not sue the place music was obtained as part of a group suit.

So purchase music in confidence! And if someone trys to collect from you contact someone. I asked BMI and Ascap and I asked them if I could purchase a license to cover myself incase a bar fails to have a license. I was told they offer NO SUCH thing. They will go after the establishment.

Rich Warne
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  #9  
Old December 19th, 2004, 12:04 AM
Digital Party Digital Party is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

All I have to say is WOW
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  #10  
Old January 9th, 2005, 03:51 AM
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

There seems to be some confusion on exactly what the role of the "performance societies" (ascap, bmi, seasac) actually is and how far they can go.

They can NOT ask to see your discs, equipment or anything else. That is NOT their function. (Well, they can "ask" all they like.... you are under NO obligation to show them anything.)

BECAUSE:

They license the "establishment"... NOT a "person". You cannot get an "ascap license"... only your business (with a stationary address) can... and it better be where the music is performed. And NO.... you cannot license your DJ or KJ business.... it doesn't work that way.

Their licenses are for different types of entertainment and there are different licenses for each one:

1. if your club has a live band: that's one license
2. if your club has a disc jockey OR karaoke (or both): that's ANOTHER license
3. if your club has a Jukebox: that's another license (handled by the J.L.O. or Jukebox Licensing Office - an office sponsored by ascap, bmi and seasac to share expenses and economize on effort)

There are a number of other licenses as well depending on whether your club has large screen TV's (with audio), the number of them, etc...

All licensing fees are based on the actual number of SEATS IN THE CLUB. Smal clubs will pay the minimum fees (around $360.00/year for karaoke from ascap) and larger establishments will pay more....

And YES, it is possible for ASCAP to demand a license from your club.... and THEN BMI walking in behind them and demanding another license with SEASAC following a close third and demanding their license fees as well.

If any of the performance societies really want to push it... they CAN and will win if they want to persue any club in court. The double-edged sword here is that it would cost much more than a license fee to persue it.
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  #11  
Old January 9th, 2005, 05:48 AM
gotrich gotrich is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

So Who can come in and request to see our library or cds etc? Who is gonna ask us for proof, and who should get it?
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  #12  
Old January 9th, 2005, 01:34 PM
Bruce Jr. Bruce Jr. is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Rich, They will not bother You, But some of the Clubs I have played at have been, Because as stated by someone else, The Clubs are supposed to have a dif liscence for every type of entertainment they have, Bruce Jr.
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  #13  
Old January 9th, 2005, 04:46 PM
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Gotrich said:
So Who can come in and request to see our library or cds etc? Who is gonna ask us for proof, and who should get it?

Law enforcement agencies with some type of warrant or other court-ordered documentation working on behalf of the copyright holder -- and at great legal expense to do so.

Otherwise, if they're not a cop AND they don't have a warrant... they can take a hike.
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  #14  
Old January 9th, 2005, 04:52 PM
Bruce Jr. Bruce Jr. is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

exactly C. Staly
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  #15  
Old January 9th, 2005, 07:31 PM
admin admin is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Others have told us in the past it would be a US Marshall with a court order, which makes it even more removed as C.Staley points out.

We have Federal Prosecutors, Sherriffs and Deputies, and Police who are hosts at their own shows. They all tell us that without a court order, no one has the right to ask to see your discs.

The old SPIN and KAPA organizations are now basically dead. These, at the demand of Sound Choice who controlled them and paid their bills, were acting with INTIMIDATION AUTHORITY, which is not a legal authority. They would try to catch you with a copied disc, then get you to sign "out of court" to never do that again. IF... someone signed, that converted from copyright law, which is very weak, to CONTRACT LAW which is AIRTIGHT! Don't ever sign such a document without legal counsel on your side reviewing the document. If any "authority actor" ever demands you sign something like that on the spot, have the Bar's Bouncer "escort" them outside and give them the option to leave or else...

But, if you have a bunch of illegal MIRC or other downloaded MP3+G songs, when someone does catch you, you'll be without ANY equipment. They can even take your van you transport it in and all your computers at your business or house!

Playing MP3+G or ZIP files that you do not own the discs for, and do not have a legal invoice to prove you purchased them, IS... ILLEGAL and you will loose.
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  #16  
Old January 12th, 2005, 08:09 AM
gotrich gotrich is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

When is the last time a DJ was busted for this? What about places like music match were you pay so much a song or a fee per year to DL music?
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  #17  
Old January 12th, 2005, 11:54 AM
bobcox- with the Lord bobcox- with the Lord is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

i know of one kj who got caught 3yrs ago they took 3 syst from him and almost lost his home. that was spin with a fed by his side and a warant. and last yr i was talking to a friend in music store when a local dj over heard us and said he just lost his syst for using music he downloaded and did not have disc for. the owner of music store said he knew the guy and he was telling the truth. be careful. Bob
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  #18  
Old January 12th, 2005, 12:16 PM
George George is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotrich
What about places like music match were you pay so much a song or a fee per year to DL music?
I believe all you pay for is the right to play the songs on your p.c.

It's a safe bet that music downloaded from any creditable site is meant for your personal use, not to be duplicated, given away to friends, or used for commercial purposes without express written consent (which I'd also guess you won't get).

Just an opinion.
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  #19  
Old January 13th, 2005, 11:39 AM
frarob frarob is offline
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

One piece of topical information and one piece of advice:
There is a third agency that administers public performance rights known as SESAC. It has always been my understanding that the establishment is responsible for the public performance rights, not the individual KJ or DJ.

You may wish to review each agency's policies for public performance:

www.bmi.com
www.ascap.com
www.sesac.com

No passwords or fees.

Once you are armed with information, you may wish to review these policies with the establishments that contract you to provide a service.
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  #20  
Old January 13th, 2005, 12:43 PM
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Re: Ascap & Bmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frarob
Once you are armed with information, you may wish to review these policies with the establishments that contract you to provide a service.
A noble idea, however I'm not on any of the payrolls to interpret and diseminate the policies of the performance societies' information to the clubs.

Club owners/operators are businesspeople and as such, should be able to manage their OWN businesses.

I'm not trying to sound harsh here, but it's a fact of life that you should know all the facets of the business that you're in and not ignore them waiting for someone else (like a KJ) to tell you about the licenses you should ALREADY have.
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