Dipping my toe

[BooBoo]

Hi All,
I've been a KJ hobbyist for a few years now. Never at a bar, never paid. Held a show at my sister's last weekend and had a new record of 15 singers.
Anyway, I am now thinking of finding a bar to move to since 15 steady singers for a night is a little too much for a private show. I am interested in how I should present myself to a bar owner. I am also interested in what interests you have when writing an agreement with an owner. The shows I've attended usually run from 10-2. what hours do you run? What are some of the things an owner would be attacted to?
My book is around 2100 songs but it covers really well and I am constantly adding. I have the best system on the planet (hence the number of singers at the private shows have jumped considerably since I upgraded). I don't have bar KJ experience, but the people I've KJed for really like how I handle them.
On that note, I also would like to come up with some steady rules. I sometimes go with the flow in the private shows, but I wouldn't be able to get away with that when paid. What are the rules you have for singer sequence? I have a preference for adding new singers in just before the current singer next time around (in other words, at the current bottom) as I have a friend that K-hops to get in the front of a rotation at as many places as he can.
Lot's of questions, I know..

[gotrich]

so many questions. I personally think there is a got it or dont quality to being a KJ. I have a 10 page booklet about my company and give on to bar owners when I meet them. Batenders dont care so I dont waste the money on them. (I can email my boo and you can see what I mean)

A book of 2100 songs is a very small start. I started with 3,200 and I added over 6,000 songs in my first year. I too had a very nice selection of a little of everything. (that did help) There is a BIG BIG difference between a private free show and a bar gig. The public is very picky and demanding. (not being mean just giving solid honest advice) I would get on the mi and say if I dont have it Ill buy it! People brought me what they wanted to get I wrote it down and boom I am now the fastest growing KJ/DJ in NW Indiana.

Under promise and over deliver...been my modo since day 1.

ROTATION ROTATION ROTATION

Stick to it as much as your stick to your money!!! DOnt let someone give you the im leaving i need to hurry..no you need to hurry back and get one more beer..LOL make em wait if they drink one more that more the bar makes the more the bar make the more you either make or have job security.

I recomend you go listen to some of the guys in the area, listem to thier mic presence, book selection, setup of equiptment and lights everything. and ask local patrons about the guy. pick the customers brains!

send me a private message and ill give you my email and send that book to you and see what happens...

[danny_g]

One added thought in dealing with rotation. Think what do I have to do to make newcomers regulars and keep the rest of the regulars at the same time.
Be fair, go by the motto that you're gonna give everyone at least one chance to sing even if it means someone who has been singing all night gets one less song than they would have if the new person never came.
Remeber you can't please everybody at all times but the more new comers you get to keep coming back, the more the owner is going like you because you're making him money he would not have had had you not been there.

[Part On!]

Welcome to the KJ in Public world! You're off to a great start by asking the people in here for advice. I'm still in my first year of KJ/DJ, and these kind souls have gotten me off to a great start. I've fallen for the "I have to leave soon" thing way too many times, then, you see them coming up for another song anyway, while you're getting other customers upset who have been patiently waiting their turn, only to see someone else get bumped up in the rotation.
Sending them to have another drink while they wait their turn is a good idea. Beware of the egos that you'll run into now that you're in public. people get emabarassed very easily when they pick a song that may be way beyond their capabilities, so, be prepared to help them out. There have been times when I've taken the blame if they want to bail out from the song, I'll just tell the crowd that it was a KJ error, and the song I had was different from what they were expecting. Some people will save you this trouble by blaming you anyway.

[BooBoo]

Thanks for the advice gotrich, Danny and Party On. I am taking it all in. I know it was a lot of questions all at once! ha! I've sent you a PM Gotrich.. I would like to see the booklet. That will go along way in helping me come to a mutual understanding with the owners. I realize it's more difficult than doing it for free. now you are working for both the owner and the singers. Keeping everyone happy can not be easy. I've been to some of the shows in town and quite frankly, I have not been impressed. They all have disks and fumble through them. Sometimes the disks work, sometimes they don't. I went to a show last Friday night and the guy got my song wrong EVERY TIME! We corrected it twice then finally I just sang whatever came up.
He has also had trouble with the monitor mix in the past.
These are areas I know I can excel in. I find songs very quickly, and my system is designed so you don't need a monitor mix. The crowd hears what the singer hears.. Much more simple, it always sounds great and people love to sing with it. I am hoping that by being able to provide the best sound and getting more singers up during a show, I can provide a better product for the owner.

What times do you folks run your shows to?
How do you handle assisting singers. I've kinda thought that was a no no unless they ask for it.. I don't assist now unless I am asked and that seems to work best for me..
Anyway, thanks again and I look forward to more feedback..

[danny_g]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

Thanks for the advice gotrich, Danny and Party On. I am taking it all in. I know it was a lot of questions all at once! ha! I've sent you a PM Gotrich.. I would like to see the booklet. That will go along way in helping me come to a mutual understanding with the owners. I realize it's more difficult than doing it for free. now you are working for both the owner and the singers. Keeping everyone happy can not be easy. I've been to some of the shows in town and quite frankly, I have not been impressed. They all have disks and fumble through them. Sometimes the disks work, sometimes they don't. I went to a show last Friday night and the guy got my song wrong EVERY TIME! We corrected it twice then finally I just sang whatever came up.
He has also had trouble with the monitor mix in the past.
These are areas I know I can excel in. I find songs very quickly, and my system is designed so you don't need a monitor mix. The crowd hears what the singer hears.. Much more simple, it always sounds great and people love to sing with it. I am hoping that by being able to provide the best sound and getting more singers up during a show, I can provide a better product for the owner.

What times do you folks run your shows to?
How do you handle assisting singers. I've kinda thought that was a no no unless they ask for it.. I don't assist now unless I am asked and that seems to work best for me..
Anyway, thanks again and I look forward to more feedback..

In answer to your first question as to what time I run my shows till, it depends a several things- 1:When you start, 2: when the place closes, 3:How much I get paid. Ok let's go with my question Number 3 as it decides when I start as my prices have a locked amount with an overtime amount listed in my contracts. I will do a 4 hour show for $100 with a $25 dollar setup tear down fee. If they want five hours that's $25 more as I do my hourly rate at $25 an hour which I feel is reasonable for a bar gig. I charge more for private parties. Now say it is a thursday night, where I am the law states that the bar has to close by 1 am. I always shut down a half hour before the shoe to get time to tear down and pack up my wires, mikes and laptop while closing up my rack. It also gives the bar time to get their customers out of the bar by 1 am. So 4 hours before 12:30 is 8:30 but personally I actualy start the karaoke end of it at 9 as singers in our area come out half an hour after my scheduled start so I play filler music at the start of my show. As to assisting singers You have the right idea. I will only help them if asked, nine time out of ten they don't. The tenth time usually a female wanting to sing a duet (normally it is either Picture, Paradise by the dashboard lights, I got you babe or Summer nights).

[G-Force]

Danny G, you really need to raise your rates. 125 for a four hour show is ridiculously low. A good rule of thumb is start negotiating at 225 for a four hour show. If you have to settle at about 150 to get the gig I can understand that but anything less is just insane. I am sure you are worth much more than that. Think of how much you have invested in equipment and music. I easily have over 20,000 dollars in cdg's alone, not including the equipment or dj music. Don't sell yourself short. You are walking in with 30,000 dollars worth of equipment and working for 125? Be careful you will get the reputation as "that guy who does karaoke for $125", and you will have a hard time getting more. Bar owners do talk to each other. I know this from experience. That and rates like that make it difficult for all KJ's to get what they really deserve. I remember a time when a 4 hour weekly bar gig paid $350. I only wish that was the case now, but the scumballs running burns have ruined it for all of us legitamate operators.

[danny_g]

That would work if there weren't nine or ten who work for even less.
The market is saturated with low ballers that don't care what they make how long they are in business and bar owners who don't give a hoot whether they are any good aor not.
A buddy of mine who has also gone digital lost a bar to some guy who went in for free.

[Part On!]

there are some around here that are basically willing to play out for pocket cash (around $75.00-$100.00) and food and drinks.

[G-Force]

I have been battling those 75-100 dollar a night folks here too. These people really piss me off. I remember a few months ago I walked into a show near my house and saw the KJ sleeping behind the booth! Needless to say I walked out of that club with 2 nights a week at 150 but two weeks later the owner tried to talk me down to 100 because thats what sleeping ugly was charging him a night. After a heated discussion, I walked out. It was a shame, because I could have made him a ton of money. But I will Not work for less than 150. I offer a hell of a lot more than these clowns that are charging 75-100 a night. One thing I have started doing is "making friends" with these 75-100 a night people and educating them on what they can really make. I have finally gotten through to two of them around here and they are now charging appropriate fees and thanked me for it. A lot of them do it out of ignorance of what they can actually get as opposed to maliciously undercutting the competition. What we need to do is educate these lowballers on what to properly charge, and it will make it easier for all of us to get what we deserve.

[danny_g]

Originally Posted by G-Force

I have been battling those 75-100 dollar a night folks here too. These people really piss me off. I remember a few months ago I walked into a show near my house and saw the KJ sleeping behind the booth! Needless to say I walked out of that club with 2 nights a week at 150 but two weeks later the owner tried to talk me down to 100 because thats what sleeping ugly was charging him a night. After a heated discussion, I walked out. It was a shame, because I could have made him a ton of money. But I will Not work for less than 150. I offer a hell of a lot more than these clowns that are charging 75-100 a night. One thing I have started doing is "making friends" with these 75-100 a night people and educating them on what they can really make. I have finally gotten through to two of them around here and they are now charging appropriate fees and thanked me for it. A lot of them do it out of ignorance of what they can actually get as opposed to maliciously undercutting the competition. What we need to do is educate these lowballers on what to properly charge, and it will make it easier for all of us to get what we deserve.

These same lowballers in my area either go to every bar that already has karaoke and try to sell their goods. Once in a while they get a bar owner who just cares about the cost of having karaoke, but most of the time they just laugh in their face but use their approach as a menas to try and jew down the present KJ. I've started using the "yeah but if I do that we go back to the risk of skipping songs, not having ceratin songs and for that matter a dull show as I can't play the same games I play with just a disc system. No more Kamakazi Karaoke (yeah I could do it but then I can slant the results, which is the biggest complaint in the area of the disc based people.

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by G-Force

Danny G, you really need to raise your rates. 125 for a four hour show is ridiculously low. A good rule of thumb is start negotiating at 225 for a four hour show. If you have to settle at about 150 to get the gig I can understand that but anything less is just insane. I am sure you are worth much more than that. Think of how much you have invested in equipment and music. I easily have over 20,000 dollars in cdg's alone, not including the equipment or dj music. Don't sell yourself short. You are walking in with 30,000 dollars worth of equipment and working for 125? Be careful you will get the reputation as "that guy who does karaoke for $125", and you will have a hard time getting more. Bar owners do talk to each other. I know this from experience. That and rates like that make it difficult for all KJ's to get what they really deserve. I remember a time when a 4 hour weekly bar gig paid $350. I only wish that was the case now, but the scumballs running burns have ruined it for all of us legitamate operators.

How much someone makes in a market other than your own is a bit irrelevant. Supply and demand seems to be working in G-Force's favor but that's not the case in many markets including my own. Nobody's been able to command 225 around here in several years. As more and more singers see "easy money" in karaoke, start doing their own shows, the supply just gets bigger faster than the demand gets bigger. My area was just hitting the saturation point when I started 5 years ago and is now totally awash in karaoke companies. Unless you are lucky enough to pick up an indian casino the market around here is paying 100 - $150.

Sam

[G-Force]

Being totally awash in karaoke companies isn't the problem. The problem is that people are settling for these low rates. If everybody held out for more they would get more. We all need to band together and work to bring the rates back up.
Not too long ago I had a 2 night a week gig I took from one of those 100 dollar a night people. Since it was 2 nights a week I gave the guy a break at 150 a night for 4 hours. Not two weeks later he wanted to lower my fee to 100 a night and I walked. Boy was he surprised! He called me back a couple weeks later. Too bad for him because I had already filled both those nights at 200 a pop. If I go about 40 minutes west of here I can get as much as 275 for a 5 hour show on a weekend. And this in the Chicago Suburbs. And if you think it isn't saturated out here, think again. We even have a local magazine dedicated to karaoke! See http://www.karaokenitelife.org If you offer a premium service, they will pay for it. Just make sure you have a way to differentiate yourself from the others and you will get it.

[jonnyrock]

Years ago, I play a bar for tuesday and thursday nights for five years for $125 a night (9:30pm - 1:30pm). The bar was doing between $2000 to $5000 a night. The bar was pack with Singers, Dancers and Drinkers.

So I ask for a for $50 night raise (only after five years) and the owner drop me like that. The owner went through a ton of difference DJ/KJ and even bought his owe gear. I spoke with one of the bartenders about three month ago, and they drop the Tuesday night show, they only have 4 singers a night mostly and no dances and the bar is lucky to do $500 on a Thursday. Bar owners don't usually care about how many songs in your books, how often you update them, how nice your books look and how current you are on DJ music.

The way we do bars another more is $175 for Sundays to Thursday, $200 for Fridays and $250 for Saturdays (hopefully were to busy to be in a bar on a Saturady night). We may start off on a trial period of 6 weeks for $150 a night, then after the trial period their agreement to pay our rate or we move on.

jonny

[Glen Goergen]

that each and every emcee realize one very simple fact!

"if you bargain with life for a penny....Life will pay no more"

I just have to say that while I know absolutely nothing about this industry and it's inner workings it would seem to me that there are certain things that would be constant.

Amount of capital investment in equipment, cd's, software, mics, lights, monitors, mixers, players, amps, speakers etc

Travel and setup time

Show time

teardown and travel time

transportation expenses

trailer expenses

Fuel

Insurance for auto and trailer

Public liability site insurance

clothing/props

song books

Now! if you add all those things up and devide by $300 that should tell you how many shows you need to do in a year to just barely break even, provided of course that you don't increase the amout of songs you have or invest in more equipment.
Still want to work for $250 a night??

When I have all my stuff setup and ready to go, I know I will not do a paying gig for less that $450 a night and that is for a 4 hour show and I don't care if others are charging $150, what they do has no effect on me or my productivity. If I am denied my price I'll book shows at local nursing homes and do those for free before I would permit some barkeep to devalue what I have to offer!

From all the things I've read about payscales and value it seems clear to me that few if any folks have a clear understanding of what it takes to run a business, and/or how to promote their own value to a potential client.

Just my 2 cents worth

Warmest regards
Glen

[mindonstrike]

You can build a million dollar home in a hunded thousand dollar neighborhood but that doesn't mean you'll ever get any where near a million dollars for it.

It doesn't matter what your expenses are, you are only worth what the market is willing to pay. Start lining up those nursing homes

Sam

[Garry A. Leslie]

Hello All,
This forum is getting very philosphical!
Here in the UK £75-£100 a night ($100-$150) is pretty regular.
You really have to play in a large venue which is pulling plenty of cash drinkers to get more.
Yes there are too many KJ's who don't care, have lousy equipment, work cheap and yet have extensive books, making one wonder how legit they are.
Bar owners also don't care, you won't get a decent fee unless you haggle.
No one automatically offers you what you think you are worth.
Incidentally doing free gigs for seniors clubs and other charities can be quite fulfilliong in itself and a hell of a lot more appreciated.
Regards from across the pond.
Garry

[Glen Goergen]

Originally Posted by mindonstrike

You can build a million dollar home in a hunded thousand dollar neighborhood but that doesn't mean you'll ever get any where near a million dollars for it.

It doesn't matter what your expenses are, you are only worth what the market is willing to pay. Start lining up those nursing homes

Sam

My Dear Sam

Million dollar home in hundred thousand neighborhgood???? Of course you will, in most communities thats called Gentrification, it's done all the time, Ask Donald Trump

I disagree very strongly, It does matter what your expenses are! Thats what dictates what your minimum charges should be in order to have your baseline covered. Thats part of a good business plan, and without it you'll surely fail.

How can you even think that your value in your chosen industry (no matter what industry may be) if you're self-employed is dictated by "what the market is willing to pay"?

Your value is self determined!

When I was teaching Stained Glass work, my competitors were giving classes to teach the craft for $25 - $50. When I opened my shop everyone told me that was all I should charge, 2 weeks later I placed a $50.00 ad in a local advertiser. A simple two line ad "Stained Glass Instruction limited enrollment 7 openings left. $250.00
My First class had 22 students, and the back end sales after class completetion averaged $400 - $600 per student with continued on going sales of equipment and supplies. Meanwhile the $25 - $50 folks where slowly folding their tents and leaving the fields. I continued to "bring in the sheaves" until my life, shop and home where destroyed by a major fire. But the point is ....IF YOU'RE SELF EMPLOYED THE MARKET NEVER DECIDES WHAT YOU ARE WORTH UNLESS YOU DECIDE TO PERMIT IT

Oh Yeah! Those nursing/retirement homes???? Just imagine how many parties, weddings, graduations etc I might obtain because the relatives think to themselves " Let give this guy a play Mom/Dad had such a good time and he was kind enough to entertain at the home for free, and even if I never get a single booking from that veneue, what the hech it'll make me feel real good.

So you see Dear Sam " if you bargin with life for a penny ....truly life will pay no more" And therefore you, not the market plsace have determined your own value

Warmest Regards
Glen

[Garry A. Leslie]

Hello Glen,
I know you were addressing your remarks to Sam, but as I also mentioned
charitable functions, I'm drawn in.
I only suggest doing the odd engagement, certainly not with the hope of getting a paying gig from it, and definitely not as a full time non-paying job.
You should, without doubt, ask what you think you're worth, but I think the general concensus is that if you really want to run a karaoke you have to take the going rate. Try by all means to raise the ante but unless you are prepared to turn your back on it as a matter of principle you will have to accept.
As already pointed out there are plenty of lowballers waiting and most bar owners know absolutely nothing about the real costs and care even less, so unless you increase their take you're whistling down the wind.
Regards from across the pond.
Garry

[Glen Goergen]

Originally Posted by Garry A. Leslie

Hello Glen,
I know you were addressing your remarks to Sam, but as I also mentioned
charitable functions, I'm drawn in.
I only suggest doing the odd engagement, certainly not with the hope of getting a paying gig from it, and definitely not as a full time non-paying job.
You should, without doubt, ask what you think you're worth, but I think the general concensus is that if you really want to run a karaoke you have to take the going rate. Try by all means to raise the ante but unless you are prepared to turn your back on it as a matter of principle you will have to accept.
As already pointed out there are plenty of lowballers waiting and most bar owners know absolutely nothing about the real costs and care even less, so unless you increase their take you're whistling down the wind.
Regards from across the pond.
Garry

Hi Gary
That whistling down the wind...is that something you guys across the pond do??? Is that why you lost the war roflmao

Seriously Garry all kidding aside and no disrespect intended. The only thing you HAVE to do is die and pay taxes...and I know some folks that don't pay their taxes, but thats another show. Why base your activities on what someone/everyone else is doing??? That just doesn't make any sense at all. In real Estate they always scream LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!

Maybe what needs to happen in our industry is to start screaming EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDCUATION!

And it starts with the operators/emcees not the veneue owners!
Raise your value! Unless you bring a horse to the veneue you are not a JOCKEY of any kind.

What you really are is a Producer, Director and Emcee! Present yourself that way professionally and back it up with your package and your clientele will respond accordingly.

General concensus??? Are you serious??? If your mates generally thought it was a good idea to jump in that river you have over there ....you know the bigs one LOL Would you do it too???
Geeeez folks, come on lets have a little positive attitude about ourselves and stop worrying about the lo-ballers. Do something about it! 1st educate yourselves! 2nd edcuate your prospective clients! Set your standards and stick to them. Plan your business and work your plan!
We're not talking about rocket science here, it's just plain common sense !

In my tri state area there are a lot of lo-ballers but the interesting thing I found is they are all trash and not worth their lo-ball price, as a matter of fact if you paid some of them their actual worth they would owe you money. Nothing worse than an ill dressed unkempt emcee, because that shws their whole package right there. And most of those that I have seen play in veneues that reflect their attitudes, so why would you want those veneue anyway? Garbage in = Garbage out .
I also found a guy that commands 500 - 600 a night for a 5 Hr show and this guy is booked up until Sept. 2006. He's been in business for about 8 years and has a plan and follows it. And like any professional he presents his contract, goes over it with his client and if they don't agree to his terms he bids them good day and NEVER LOOKS BACK! This gentlem is a real professional and has 8 systems in operation every week.

He didn't get there by worrying about the lo-ballers, or by accepting what the "Market" dictated. He got there by due dilligence, hard work and educating himself first and his clientel second, buy dressing for success, he shows up with his contract well dressed and well groomed he looks expensive, and has no problem walking out withy out a signature and deposit.

Ok Much as it's going to kill me I'll say no more on this thread!

However should you wish to avoid and or get out of that $150 rut...Watch for my new book "Perfect Pitch, Perfect Speed" A dummies guide to becoming a producer/director/emcee, without going bankrupt! copyright Moneysworth publishing 2005

" A rut is merely a grave with the ends kicked out of it"

Warm Regards
Glen