Speaker Breakin Period

[billyo]

i tend to agree with Lonman, amps should be higher rated than the speakers, if not amps would work harder to bring out the full sound of the cabinets, and this will lead to clipping...

[billyo]

Originally Posted by mindonstrike

Directly: One of the Bose guys at their forum. Indirectly: From other people who've checked with their speaker makers.

Sam

you can buy those 5" lcd tv/monitor from www.pssl.com ( vocopro ) they are kinda pricy though, but you can buy a small black& white 5 inch. tv from Brandsmart for less than $15.00 i have those it has an rca audio/video out (battery /ac / car adapter )power supply, we used them during the hurricane season here in Florida, heck it even has a am/fm radio in it, i even used it in one of my show at one time..works good

[billyo]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

"Even though the manufactures insist no breakin is needed, I still do it."

Which manu's are you speaking of if you don't mind my asking?


Musizicman144, i do use the best i can find. I have used all peavey and carvin gear in one way or another since time began. I am currently using their LM series of speakers. I run 4 main cabs, two 2way cabs, and two 3way cab. Carvin sells a cross bar that fits on your speaker stand, and i mount two speakers on each stand. Thats how light these new 15" neo cabinets are. These new LM cabinets by carvin are just the cats meow. They weigh around 30 pounds each, and are loaded with neodymium speakers made by B&C, an italian speaker company, that makes top shelf stuff. a while back, just for the fun of it, i traded out the B&C neo's and installed the Eminence kapalite 15's. Which is also a great speaker. To my surprise, i liked the italian built B&C neo's better. You can find the B&C neo's on the Parts Express website. They are a very pricy speaker, but in my humble opinion well worth the bucks. I use two 12" Wharfendale floor monitors, and 2 small Electro Voice 12" plastic subwoofer cabinets. These little EV 12" subs think they're 18's, and eat peavey subs for lunch. I have a foldaway two wheel cart i keep in the trailer, and away we go, the carvin mains even i can carry two at a time. My 8 space molded skb rack case is the heaveist piece of gear i have to move now. You know, i purchased hoster so i could stop hauling those heavy cd cases, now i find myself buying new mic preamps, an extra power amp, i also just purchased a small 5" LCD table top TV monitor for my karaoke table, and i also added a table, now i travel with two DJ tables. Where does it all end....Yep, thank goodness for todays technology.

i have the 2 fold cart that i bought from pssl.com for 90.00 but instead of using dj tables, i bought 2 keyboard stands, one with 2 tiers and a regular stand all i do is put a 14x 36 carpet covered plywood over one of the top tiers sit my laptop on it and used the bottom tier for my dj 14x32 coffin that i built myself ( i bulid dj/kj racks for a hobby too, which i have done for most of my kj friends for free ) which houses my board and my 2 cordless mic transmitters and cables, i can set up/tear down in 1/2 an hr..i can haul all my stuff in just one trip.

[WaltR]

Audio signals are a/c voltages. Speakers will fry if they receive d/c voltage. Some of the older solid state amps could send moemtary d/c voltage spikes to speakers when you first fire the amp up. Most newer quaility amps have delays or protection built into them to prevent this from happening. If you use an amp that doesn't have enough power for your application the tendency is to turn it up beyond it's clean power rating which then starts sending a form of a square wave instead of a sine wave. Depending how bad you are clipping the amp, the square wave is seen to the speaker as some dc voltage. The voice coil overheats and that is bad news for the speaker or driver. Even is you have an amp that is powerful enough for your application it has the protential to send transient peaks that are capable of causing speaker/driver damage. Some amp and powered speakers have clipping L.E.D.'s that show when the amp is clipping. This helps give you a warning as to what your speaker may be seeing. Some have protection built into the amps just for this reason. I like to use a limiter to help prevent to much clipping. I have found that karaoke disks can often have very different output levels from song to song. A limiter will help level things out. I used to rebuild or recone speakers years ago. The only break in I would do was hooking up an low amplification signal generator set for low frequency in order to have the cone move in and out to make sure the coil in the speaker was properly aligned and not rubbing. May of the home speakers (woofers) have a foam surround at the outer edge of the cone to allow more cone movement for low end frequencies. This foam rots from age and humitity. It will also stretch if the speaker is over driven with much power at the low frequency spectrum and this will somtimes cause the voice coil to rub a little in the magnetic gap that it travels in. If it starts rubbing the coating on the windings of the voice coil the coating will start coming offf and it is possible for the coil to burn in spots until it opens up. The speaker is dead that point. Hope this helps.

[Musicman51]

So true, an underpower amp is the worse piece of equipment you could own. However, there are exceptions to everything. Depending on what you are going to use the speaker power situation for. But as a general rule, i've never fried a speaker cab by using an underpowered amp, in any situation i've performed at. But i can't say i haven't blown one the other way. If i know i'm going to need more power i take more. I have at times whished i'd had a larger more powerful amp, but i got by with using a bit of common sense. I purchased my new LCD desk top color monitor from Markertek Broadcast Supply, it is actually 5.6" to be exact, and it was $229.00 they work great. The brand name is "Delvcam" you can mount them almost anyplace, 12 Volts, and it runs off a wall wart, and if you turn the screen upside down, the picture remains upright. So there are many mounting options.
Billyo what type of speakers did you say you were using? just curious, not sure you mentioned that, sorry if i didn't catch it. And that sure sounds like a real neat setup system you have. Glad you have it all going well for you.
"May of the home speakers (woofers) have a foam surround at the outer edge of the cone to allow more cone movement for low end frequencies. This foam rots from age and humitity. It will also stretch if the speaker is over driven with much power at the low frequency spectrum and this will somtimes cause the voice coil to rub a little in the magnetic gap that it travels in. If it starts rubbing the coating on the windings of the voice coil the coating will start coming offf and it is possible for the coil to burn in spots until it opens up. The speaker is dead that point. Hope this helps."
Walt you are spot on my man, i have a Peavey Black Widow 1501 Shallow Basket steel guitar speaker, i have 4 of them to be exact. And i took two of these fantastic papar cone speakers, and repaced the magnets with their new Neodymium replacement mags. And the first thing i ran into was that stupid white foam. Peavey told me to wipe the basket clean, and make sure that burnt stuff is all out, then to bolt down the neodymium magnet. I like peavey for the fact that their baskets and mags are field replaceable. And you are in the right direction with that speaker break in as well...

"

[billyo]

i have a pair of Mackie SRM 450 that i used for my show ,and a pair of Mackie 1521z for big venues, a pair of 6" ES (Especial Editon ) KRK Rokit studio monitors paired with a KRK v12s11 v series 10' sub, good enough to used for small clubhouse type parties, and a pair of KRK 8" studio monitors paired with the same 10' subs good enough for backyard parties and all systems has a separate mackie boards and i also have the same type (KRK"s) speakers/subs in my studio that is in my garage.. ( all Mackie/KRK speakers are powered )

[ddouglass]

I also agree that an under powered amp will cause as many problems as over-powering. If you use a 1000 watt amplifier into 250 watt speakers you will blow out the speaker as easily as using a 40 watt amp into 500 watt speakers. So basically try to match your speakers and amp close enough to be able to get the best sound out of both. Your better quality speakers will list a minimum and a maximum power rating.
Now the next question is what percentage do you set your amps at for the optimum output? 50%, 75% or 100%? All of my training has taught me that 75% gives you optimum performance with no distortion or clipping.

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

I also agree that an under powered amp will cause as many problems as over-powering. If you use a 1000 watt amplifier into 250 watt speakers you will blow out the speaker as easily as using a 40 watt amp into 500 watt speakers. So basically try to match your speakers and amp close enough to be able to get the best sound out of both. Your better quality speakers will list a minimum and a maximum power rating.
Now the next question is what percentage do you set your amps at for the optimum output? 50%, 75% or 100%? All of my training has taught me that 75% gives you optimum performance with no distortion or clipping.

I HAVE blown speakers with amps that weren't matched to the speakers - all in live situations however & with heavy rock. When I replaced the amps with the power that the speakers recommended (or a little higher) I never had another problem.
Again I have known SEVERAL people/companies that have blown speakers/drivers with amps that weren't even close to the program ratings of the speaker.
I have always been taught by SEVERAL sound engineers - including 3 that have worked with Nirvana, Pearl Jam & Soundgarden - to open the amps wide open as the mixer is the the pre-amp controller.

[billyo]

when i used to used power amps i used to have it all the way up 100%, and my board is up to unity gain, and use my channel gain to turn up/down the sound...i have the volume to 12'0clock on my powered speakers and use my board & channel fader to turn the volume up/down

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by Lonman

I have always been taught by SEVERAL sound engineers - including 3 that have worked with Nirvana, Pearl Jam & Soundgarden - to open the amps wide open as the mixer is the the pre-amp controller.

Very correct! When using rack mount amps I always turn the volume full then back it down just a hair for a little headroom.

Jim

[Musicman51]

I've never seen any live acts ever run their power amps to the screaming point just to hold the power back by another means. Kinda like holding the gas pedal down to the floor then holding the car back to the correct speed with the break...lol Sorry i'm just too clumsy and not brave enough to try it.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

I've never seen any live acts ever run their power amps to the screaming point just to hold the power back by another means. Kinda like holding the gas pedal down to the floor then holding the car back to the correct speed with the break...lol Sorry i'm just too clumsy and not brave enough to try it.

you should try it, sounds will come out better, just make sure all your mixing boards volume slider is turned all the way down ,then turn your power amp on to full level ,then turn your boards main volume slider gradually till you get the proper volume for that particular venue size ,watch those little lights flicker on your boards mains volume make sure that it doesn't turn red ( clipping point )...( i'm sure you know this )

[Musicman51]

I want to thank those that did help try to answer my question, although we did get mislead a little, i suppose it's all related in one way or another. To git back to my original question, yes i do believe in a speaker break in period. Here are a few responses those in the know had to say. Thanks again for all the support.

Hi George,

Yes, there is a "break-in" period and it's going to happen whether you want it to or not. The speaker will continue to break-in as long as you use it, but the most noticeable amount occurs early on. Break-in is caused by the speaker heating up and softening. The resonant frequency will drop considerably at first and eventually level out to a slower decline as the moving parts wear. The change in tonality is overall warmth and a smoother top end. A lot of players are aware of this and don't bother playing it or making a judgement about the tone until it happens. Others like the speakers right out of the box. There are many methods people use to achieve break-in, such as using a variac or music for an extended amount of time. Some people even have a specific song they use. At Eminence, we use a noise signal generator set to a very low frequency when we want to test or compare. It's nearly impossible to do a fair comparison without some level of break-in. The idea is to get the speaker moving without causing abuse. Some of these methods can be risky. I've fried a few speakers in my time. The safest and simplest method to achieve break-in is to play it long and loud. It will eventually happen naturally. Other factors that can affect the rate are temperature and humidity. I can't really advise when it will occur because it varies from speaker to speaker. It can even vary with two of the same model.

Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Sr. Lab Technician
Eminence Speaker LLC
anthony.lucas@eminence.com
(502)845-5622 ext. 341

While a new speaker is a little stiff when new and will pick up some low end as well as experience a downward shift in its bass resonance after it has been thrashed with high power for awhile,
generally, the speaker will sound very good right out of the box and the break in may not be as dramatic as some may claim.

Thanks very much,

Ted
.
Weber Speakers
1308 E. Hoffer St.
Kokomo, Indiana USA 46902
765.452.1249
Fax 765.452.6228

George:

I have found that Jensen musical instrument speakers sound great right out of the box. A lot of players just need time to become accustomed to the new speaker's tonal response and feel when changing from a speaker they may have used for years.

Thanks for your inquiry.

George,

Every speaker has some sort of break in period, and the amount of time varies from on product to another. Typically it's 15-20 hours if you use a sign wave at half excursion, and a few days by just playing music through them. There is no better way than another. After break in periods people have mentioned hearing deeper bass, cleaner mids and better sound overall.

Regards,

Matt Phillips
Technical Advisor
Parts Express Int.
800-338-0531 x 2

And so the age old question continues. Thanks again for your ideas and comments...... George

[ddouglass]

Even the "expert" can't agree, eh George. I guess it is that way in any technical situation. You go with what sounds best to you and your customers in our case.
Now as for the Amplifier settings there again it is up to you to find the optimum range for your amp.
First off from purely a technical view an electronic amplifier circuit be it solid state (transistor) or older tube version is at its peak efficiency with 75% power applied. Beyond that the amplifier circuit will clip and distort the signal.
However depending on the quality of the Amp unit (the whole box) you buy will determine your setting. The higher-end (quality not price) units are adjust so that 100% of you volume control is actually roughly 75% power to the amplifier circuit. This way you won't distort or clip your signal. The lesser quality Amps do not have this and will be much more likely to distort if you use maximum power.
George, unless the bands instruments are also fed through a sound board you won't see them run wide open because they do not have any other control on volume except the instrument amp. That said if you run you amp at the higher volume then control the amount of input with a sound board/mixer then you output will be a cleaner crisper sound at the volume level you desire. This also puts all your control (mics and music) in one location.

[muzicman144]

George, i guess one question in this forum leads to another and begins an endless cycle with theory after theory. I, IMHO, believe the "break in period" for a speaker is about 10 minutes. If it don't "break", its "broke In".
As for amp settings, I turn the amp wide open, all mixing boards i use have slides with factory reccommemded pre-settings, and the trim control is recommended to fine tune one's sound to prevent clipping. Again, never blown a speaker in over forty years setting up sound for clubs, arenas, and outdoor venues.
I, however, did like your phrase of the gas pedal and brake. Quite a good comparison i thought.
Enjoyed your imput
muzicman144:

[Musicman51]

What you are proposing may be true, actually not entirly, there are so many variables that no blanketed rule applies here. This is fine if all you use is a mixer and amp. But you add in other things in the input pre amp path and this is not neccessary a rule to follow. You add EQ from an outboard EQ unit, it adds volume, you add compression, it to may add volume, you add a sound enhance ie: DBX BBE they have a volume control, Lexicon reverb, they have most generally two volume controls, pre and post. So you see, you are at rated volume for your speakers at far less then 75% of your amps operating potential. You couldn't use 75% of your rated amps power, with these variables ratioed in, with the average speakers that most fella's are using, regardless of brand. Although as i said, the 75% rule may be a norm for some, it is not by any means a rule of thumb. Just not necessary to achive the full potential of your speakers rated output. By adding effects, and these things i have mentioned into your signal path you will under almost all circumstances get an incease in preamp modulation, sine, and signal. So much so, that if you ran your power amp at the 75% rule, on top of this hot output signal, it may very well spell disaster. I have noticed through the years, especally with the younger folks, for some reason, the more power one has, the more one turns things up and uses it. Again, caution is the key here. If i have a 100 watt power amp, then if i buy a 200 watt power amp i will be twice as loud right? nope.... It's called "Head Room" which is what the 75% theory is trying to achieve, but does it? It is easy to paint all situations with a broad brush. Thanks Again...George

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

What you are proposing may be true, actually not entirly, there are so many variables that no blanketed rule applies here. This is fine if all you use is a mixer and amp. But you add in other things in the input pre amp path and this is not neccessary a rule to follow. You add EQ from an outboard EQ unit, it adds volume, you add compression, it to may add volume, you add a sound enhance ie: DBX BBE they have a volume control, Lexicon reverb, they have most generally two volume controls, pre and post. So you see, you are at rated volume for your speakers at far less then 75% of your amps operating potential. You couldn't use 75% of your rated amps power, with these variables ratioed in, with the average speakers that most fella's are using, regardless of brand. Although as i said, the 75% rule may be a norm for some, it is not by any means a rule of thumb. Just not necessary to achive the full potential of your speakers rated output. By adding effects, and these things i have mentioned into your signal path you will under almost all circumstances get an incease in preamp modulation, sine, and signal. So much so, that if you ran your power amp at the 75% rule, on top of this hot output signal, it may very well spell disaster. I have noticed through the years, especally with the younger folks, for some reason, the more power one has, the more one turns things up and uses it. Again, caution is the key here. If i have a 100 watt power amp, then if i buy a 200 watt power amp i will be twice as loud right? nope.... It's called "Head Room" which is what the 75% theory is trying to achieve, but does it? It is easy to paint all situations with a broad brush. Thanks Again...George

Actually if set properly, all the outboard gear won't add any more volume. Say on the eq, you want the input & output sound to remain the same volume, so once eq, you do a bypass comparison & adjust the output to match the uneq'd signal. Same goes with the compression - however I adjust this for every singer so there is no one setting. EFX get used through the Aux or EFX sends, and are controlled by an open channel on the board, so no extra volume there. Plus if the effects are adding any significant volume, they are not adjusted properly, you shouldn't actually be able to 'hear' the effect in most cases, but KNOW if it wasn't there. Some songs do require heavier effect as an actual part of the song.

But I agree with muzic as far as speaker break in for the most part. The speaker is going to break in from the first time it's plugged in and producing sound. Plus many manus bench test each speaker for a couple hours to get true spec ratings & this could be considered a break in.

[Musicman51]

Each person has a setting that sounds good, and works for them. I wasn't aware there were so many written in stone rules for what's correct, and one must follow to be the correct position..new to me...lol If it works for you then i think it's correct. If it doesn't work that way for someone else, and they set their mix up differently, then thats what works for them. I think this thread has pretty much gone it's distance..thanks for everyones views....

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Sam, do a search for "Backup cameras for vehicles" There are lots of choices out there that power directly from the car (no power supply needed). Some are wireless and nearly all hav an LCD screen from 4" -7" that are part of the set.

I'm planning on this as well. My main concern is a camra that will display the lane on the right side of the van as most of it is a blind spot. Convex mirrors are a help but because the image is distorted it can be difficult to gauge distance of what you see out of them. Changing lanes often times is a process of plenty of warning with the turn signal and then drift over slowly so someone I can't see will have time to honk

Originally Posted by billyo

you can buy those 5" lcd tv/monitor from www.pssl.com ( vocopro ) they are kinda pricy though, but you can buy a small black& white 5 inch. tv from Brandsmart for less than $15.00 i have those it has an rca audio/video out (battery /ac / car adapter )power supply, we used them during the hurricane season here in Florida, heck it even has a am/fm radio in it, i even used it in one of my show at one time..works good

Thanks I'll check into those.
I used to have 3 b&W tv in my rack for cueing up the next singer, so I've got those but they are bulky and could never get them to work with my home security camera's.

Back on topic:
I would sure think that if a breakin period was necessary the manufacturers would include this information with their product otherwise they would get stuck with claims against the warranty that might have been avoided.

Sam

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

Each person has a setting that sounds good, and works for them. I wasn't aware there were so many written in stone rules for what's correct, and one must follow to be the correct position..new to me...lol If it works for you then i think it's correct. If it doesn't work that way for someone else, and they set their mix up differently, then thats what works for them....

No, no set rules, I was just clarifying that when set properly, the outboard gear you mentioned will not add any additional volume, that's what the output knob on each of those are for - to compensate for the additional volume they do tend to add. Not trying to get anyone to run their sound any differently.

Agree with Sam, if a breakin period were required, the manus would state that in their manuals.