Duplicate without using the hard drive?

[FIFTY8TH]

Havn't been able to get the exact answer to my qestion.

Can a CDG disc be duplicated without it first copying to hard disc. ???

Copying a disc is a very rare thing here....but...I still need to know. I thought the manual said a cdg disc always copy's to the hard disc first...and that is just what DUPLICATE does as we see it.

It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to make a complete new copy.....anyone care to say how long their CDG disc copies take ?

fifty8th

[Cid_cat]

Admin has answered this type of question before. They said that due to the sensitive nature of CD+G format, they do not support disc to disc recording. An image must be burned to the hard drive first, then back to a blank disc.

As for how long it takes to make a disc...I only burn at 6x to make sure my recordings are error free. Therefore, about 12 minutes to make the image and about 12 minutes to burn the copy. The extra time is worth a clean copy, every time.

[FIFTY8TH]

Got it...thanks

fifty8th

[TERRY STALEY]

I HAVE COPIED CD-G'S DISC TO DISC AT 16X THIS PROCESS TAKES MATCHED SPEED DRIVES AND GOOD MEDIA

I DO MOST OF MY COPYING TO HARD DRIVE FIRST

I READ TO THE HARD DRIVE AT 12X TO 16 X AND COPY FROM THE HARD DRIVE AT 20X TO 24X AND I HAVE VERY FEW PROBLEMS

TERRY STALEY
NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS
ddki@netburner.net

[George]

Right on, CID_CAT, and FIFTY8TH can prove it for him(her)self,if need be.Simply start going through the commercially produced cdg's and check the glitches; a letter that doesn't sweep, sweep out of sync, a color splotch,a random glob of something that suddenly appears and stays though the entire song, two or more entire lines completely unreadable, etc, etc, etc. Ranking high on the list that can cause these glitches is mass production at HIGH RECORDING SPEEDS,and we pay dearly for those screw ups. If anyone is of a mind to tolorate those glitches in their own recordings, then go for speed, but don't lay the blame on MTU's software. My Plextor goes at 16X, but I still feel uncomfortable at anything above8X. Just thought I'd second that opinion CID_Cat.

Take care,

George

[FIFTY8TH]

Here at the stuido we do not make discs over 8x. We are not sure that older consumer players could play them reliably. The problem could be much more difficult dupping CDG at higher speeds. If someone can do it ...more power

The only job we had with dupping CDG's was a back up of a collection for a business....and we did it at 4X disc to disc. It was 400 discs and only a couple errors dealing with longer playing times than our media could provide.
That was a hundred hours....Christ were we tired !!!

I am not aware that commercial discs are high speed duped though...I believe they are pressed and coated. I have listened to many karoke discs that clients bring in and they sure do have many audio problems. It is not uncommon for me to not only record and process the clients voice....but also process the music too. There can be some real grungy audio....and it did not come from the master recordings....it comes from the CDG disc production.

When we need to burn a lot of discs ..we don't burn them faster...we just ethernet the audio to all the other Macs in the building which all have 8x burners including that old 4X yamaha 400t !

Fifty8th

[George]

Thanks for the info. I assumed higher speed burning was being used commercially because every one of the problems I described exists on CDG's I've bought. So much for pressing and coating.

Take care,

George

[FIFTY8TH]

We may never know why the quality of CDG's can be so poor. The glass master commercial Cd's are processed differntly than the way we make them. Glass mastering is so expensive this type of CD replication will never be for anyone other than a manufacturing company.

Obviously though...there is a way to make galss masters cheaper because we can hear it. I have several ideas....for some other forum some other time.

We have been recording karoke singers for four years among other projects and have never noticed any graphic problems...every time we print the lyrics from the disc....or play it for the client to see where they are in the song...etc. I am not saying this is because we work on....that other platform....maybe we have just been lucky.

We sure know the audio can really suck...so it stands to reason the graphics must really suck sometimes too.

fifty8th

[gladu2]

Buffer underuns can cause errors that make you
slow your recorders speed down to try and correct but here's a list of things you might try first,
click
http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/bufunder.html
My friend in Georgia makes CD+G backup copies
at 16X write speed and he often gets the type of graphic problems George describes.
I'm writing CD+G's at 12X speed, the recorders maximum, with absolutely no errors. Burnproof technology, a defragged harddrive, lots of storage for temp files, clean unscratched original disks, all these things will keep me making clean copies at twice the average guys speed.

Take care,
Mike G.

[FIFTY8TH]

A question we would all like to know from Mike G. is....will those 12x recorded discs play on all Karaoke devices. If you compiled a list of favorite songs on to one 12x recorded disc.....would some players have a problem.

Fifty8th

[George]

58th.am curious and the only way to learn is to ask. If the commercial cd manufacturers are pressing cd's rather than burning, who is using all those multi duplication units I see all over the internet? The ones where you can stack 100 blanks and get automatic duplication of a cd up to 24x, and print labels, etc all automatically. Priced up into $8000.00 and maybe even more?

Thanks, George

[George]

58th, saw your post in a few minutes ago and got curious also. yesterday I burned two custom cdg's, both the same material, one at my usual 8X and one at 16X. The 16X had two minor glitches(a letter not complete and a letter not shaded properly). This was out of a total of 23 tracks. The one at 8X was perfect. After seeing your post a few minutes ago I drug out my old Ventura el-cheepo all in one Karaoke player that I've saved purely as a back up just in case, and played the cd I'd burned at 16X. It handled it fine, and the only glitches I saw were the same two that were imbedded in the cd. I know that's not going to completely answer the question, but who can, without trying a disk out on very brand out there? Anyway, I thought it was an interesting experiment.

Take care,

George

[FIFTY8TH]

George..

All kinds of thiings. Faster and faster buning is a growing industry. Where is is the top ? These dupicators are getting cheaper and cheaper and faster and faster. Its a market that seems to be unstopable.

You can't find a manufacturer who will make less than 300 glass master discs for an order. Here at this studio we burn the discs ourselves for any order under 300....but over that...we farm them out to a manufacturer...who will do a professional glass master.

A burned disc is called a ' one off ' . Mastering houses will send a 'one off ' to you for an example of how their processing of your music is coming....but when you order the discs ....they are sent to a manufacturer for glass mastering.

Here is the difference....OK .. for one thing glass masters are the best...they work on all USA consumer players....at least all player that conform to all the required standards of the industy.

It costs money to make them....but burned CD's are cheaper at lower numbers. If you think about it...there are thousands of projects that would b e cheaper than glass masters.... like would if a college had a 12 part series of educations discs.....

Some people like churches and bands don't have the money for glass masters
so they hire companies off the internet with duplicators. Burned copies don't always work on players....and copies of burned disc have much greater failure rate...

Burned discs have die that get pitted from the laser....but commercial discs are made differently...notice commercial discs are not colored ?

I got to run....I have limited myself 1 hour a day to answer client email..and I have run way over today... later.

[FIFTY8TH]

George..

Just saw your post on playing a 16x on other devices.. good this is what we want to know.

fifty8th

[George]

Also had the same results on my Sony 400 cd player, which incidentally plays cdrw's and put me out of the coaster business.

Take care
George

[gladu2]

The 12x recorded media works on my Skandyna and
my friends Pioneer machines. I've made custom assy.'s CD+G that seem to work at any club.
The type of media thats used probably has the most bearing on weather the copy would play on most machines. I've had excellent success with Memorex.
My friend uses bargain media. I know for a fact some of his copies won't play on every machine.
But to answer your question, I haven't tried my copies on every machine because theres no reason to, they're mainly backup copies for my own karaoke machine of which I just have one.
Take care,
Mike G.

[danny_g]

I've had nothing but bad luck burning on Memorex media at 4X. So how can one have excellent results with Memorex media at speeds faster than 12 speed? I'd really like to know.

I Had a 50 disc spindle of Memorex discs that maybe gave me 6 good discs. I have always burnt at 4x and except for TDK, Sony and Memorex I have never had any buffer underuns or Bad mediums for that matter.

[gladu2]

Danny,

CD-R technology is still evolving, as evidenced by the lack of a public ISO standard. The proprietary Orange Book Part II
specifies format, physical, mechanical, dimensional, and optical specifications. It does not specify the method required to
manufacture CD-R discs, and the industry is split between stabilized cyanine and phthalocyanine dyes. Each requires different
laser beam powers and write strategies for optimum results. Since a standard for writers does not exist, model "A" might work
well with certain brands and poorly with others. Results from model "B" might be opposite to those of "A". Throughput
requirements complicate matters as higher speed writers become popular.

It would seem my CD Writer works well with Memorex
while yours doesn't.

Take care,
Mike G.

[George]

Really wierd stuff. I've had good results with Memorex also burning at 8X, but always felt like I was playing Russian Roulette.
Memorex also has come out with CDRW certified to 4X. The reason I felt a bit spooky about Memorex even though I was experiencing good results was because possibly unlike Mitsui who manufactures their own media, perhaps memorex jobs it out
and who knows where the next batch will come from, and will the results vary. Perhaps what you guys are experiencing is just that. Dunno, just speculating, so I use Mitsui for CDG and Memorex for audio. Seems to be a workable compromise for me.

Take care,

George

[Cgerrells]

We are currently burning at 16x using the Plextor 16 burner and do have a few glitches on the cds but oh well. Also we use the cheapest no name media we can find 100 cd spindals for 20 bucks from Circut City after rebate. 24x media. Can't complain, we are burning about 1000 CDG disks but for our own use at home. Just ordered the new plextor 40x burner and will have it on Mondy, going to try to read from the plaextor 16 and burn to the new plextor 40 for duping and see how it works will let everyone know.

We us a pretty beefy computer, Twin 1600 Athlons with a gig of ram and twin 7200 80 gig drives runing on Raid 0 (Striping) so the system does not even burp at the 16x speed. $0 should be no problem.

Should be interesting to see how we do.

BTW we love the MTU software. A friend of ours uses a program called CD Clone and makes a bit master to harddrive. It works very well also for duplicating disks but of course it can not pull out single tracks but the dups are the ones we use to make our dups, they are that good.