rate of pay around the country.

[alanross]

A couple of years ago, the folks from ASCAP came into this area and tried to strong arm a few of the places, but they weren't singling out Karaoke. It was all inclusive, if they did any kind of musical entertainment, including satellite radio, they were responsible for ASCAP fees. Since every place that would want to do Karaoke already has some form of musical entertainment, putting me in there, or keeping wasn't an issue.

I don't know what the laws actually state, but the reality is that the ASCAP folks pretty much just went away.

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by danny_g
[b]has anyone had trouble getting bars due to ascap and bmi now pursuing payments for having karaoke in their establishment?

I've had 5 bars make this complaint in the past month. They want over $500/year now up from about $300. A couple bars I talked to will no longer have karaoke due to the increased fees.

Steve

[darrinlutz]

I have the best of both worlds situation, being a KJ and a band member in the Central Texas area. There are whole slew of new KJs that have popped up in the the last 3yrs around here, I know I am one of them. We run a Family Karaoke show, and particularly cater to families with children. The only public show that we do is at a local restaruant with an outdoor stage. We were charging the owner a percentage of his outdoor food and alcohol sales with a small minimum to set up. This would work great for both of us, if he made money so did we, if he didn't we were at least compensated for setting up. This worked until his business was established with Karaoke. We would average $150 nite, some nites were $280, some nites less than $100. But none the less the average was about $150 overall.

Recently he decided to change the percentage rate - to his advantage - needless to say we almost pulled out..... we finally settled on a flat fee of $150.

I know to most of you, "How can you charge or except such little pay for the show"..... The children was the key here.... no one else around did this, also, in this situation, there isn't quite as much money being made by the owner as in normal bar scenes.....plus we also get quite a bit of private parties from this show of which we charge $300 for 4 hrs.

Now heres the real kicker......

Austin area, Music Capital of the world, too many KJs, too many bands, prices go down...... supply and demand....

Bands around the area for the bar scenes...... unless you find a really really really good tipping crowd, most bands average $300 per nite.....4 to 5 members.... do the math.... not good.....

In fact we talked to our current KJ establishment about replacing his Friday nite bands with Karaoke and bring in more people, he told us we'd have to take a pay cut..... yea right.... won't do it...

Kinda funny. Most KJs I talk to in this area charge the standard $150 a nite.

Darrin
Karaoke Kraize

[flipper]

Steve - He is saying that private parties and corporate events are $150 per hour. His nomal bar gigs are $175 to $225 on 4 month contracts depending on the gig.

[flipper]

sorry the above posted in the wrong thread somehow

[nreel]

Yes!

The Strong-arm of the Music Industry is now working Indiana pretty hard.

BMI, rooted in New York (guess that should tell you something).

The three "Watchdogs" of the "BROADCAST" industry (BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC) are now charging fees for Karaoke. They claim it is a "Public Performance" of copyrighted material.

On each of their WEBSITES, is an interactive PDF file that allows you to fill out exactly what you will owe per year.

Basically, these contracts cover 4 categories. 1. Live Entertainment. 2. DJ/VJ/CD/DVD and Enhanced CD music, which is KARAOKE. 3. Televisions. and 4. Jukeboxes.

I say that, it is not a "Public Performance" in the original meaning of the "term." (If there is such a definition defined in LAW...that I cannot find anywhere).

The trick is, they do not file "Criminal" lawsuits because, then, they would need to produce the LAW and the "defined" terms and, as a general rule, if the defined TERMS are VAGUE, Justice prevails for the Defendant, usually, due to the Defendant having a presumption of INNOCENCE.

Instead, they file "Civil" lawsuits where Federal Judges have great "Latitude" in siding with the Plaintiffs. The Defendants in CIVIL suits always have UP-HILL battles to Prove their INNOCENCE.

If any were doing a "Public Performance" it would be a LIVE band that is getting paid to perform music other than his or her own.

A club I do 2-nights of Karaoke has made national news for being sued by BMI. To make matters worse, this club has, recently, come under new management who, at their other clubs, only hire LIVE Bands that play their own ORIGINAL music and have been telling BMI right where to stick it...so, no telling how long I will have this GIG.

By the way, you are probably wondering why there are Television Fees. A Club (Commercial for Profit Establishment) might receive copyrighted music from Broadcast signals. For instance, the theme song to Monday night Football is licensed through BMI.

The bottom line: Knowledge is POWER. Do not sit back and lose your GIG by default. There are ways to fight back and convince your CLUB owner to stay with Karaoke. Navigate to their WEB sites and plug-in the numbers to see what the Licensing Fees are.

One way to offset the cost to the Club would be to do a Fundraising for the amount needed to pay for the, highly questionable, FEES. If BMI is the only thorn, then only pay BMI's Licensing Fees until the others start screaming, then, deal with them.

Keep in mind though; only collect, from your Karaoke Customers, the exact amount needed to pay for Karaoke, and NOT for LIVE entertainment, Television, and Jukebox charges.

If BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC have already contacted a Club, the Club will, most likely, have to pay...even if they got rid of Karoke because most Clubs usually have Televisions. In other words, Club management will not get rid of this problem by stopping Karaoke. They are going to have to deal with the issue anyway.

Also, if you, as the KJ, raise this money to pay for the whole year, make sure you get a Contract that locks you in for that year.

Hope this helps,

Norm

[shanold1]

What rights do we get when we buy karaoke cd's. I thought we paid for the right to play them when we purched them? Does the lincing fee need to be paid if you are in a not for profit club like the American Legion, and Moose lodges.
steve

[PastMember]

Shanold1:

Yes, you purchased the disc.

And you can listen/sing to it all you want..... at home.

The minute you take it into "commercial use in a public area" (and that includes you taking your disc to another KJ's show), the ballgame changes.

ASCAP and the others are "performing rights societies" and they do collect licensing for public performances of copywritten works.

HOWEVER, these licenses really have NOTHING to do with you or even the KJ... they are licenses issued to the ESTABLISHMENT where the music is performed.

KJ's, bands, disc jockeys etc. Do NOT get "licensed by ASCAP"... only the ESTABLISHMENT does. (The bar, restaurant, etc...)

Here's a kicker: You know the elevator music played at a funeral home? Check with them, you'll find that even funeral homes pay ASCAP for these "performances" as an establishment.

[MaddMatt]

I used to work in an office setting and we used the radio for on hold music. ASCAP even came after us and we had to pay them for the on hold music!

Madd Matt

[mgrowolski]

Well Guys I reckon you should come to the UK my Rates start at £200 for 3.5 hours and rise from there average night on a fri or sat is £300 and will not go out for less I feel I am doing a good service and recently got a top nightclub in London where I charge £350 for 9pm to 2.30 am. I do agree there are to many one man bands out there but they generally fall by the wayside over a short period of time for example I just got back a gig that was poached by someone who offered there services for £90 he lasted three weeks and was booted out the company then contacted me back needless to say the price rose accordingly but the pub was packed again within a week lol.

[MasterJP80]

I have been in the business for 10 years. I am in agreement with CID_CAT. I play one club one night a week - $325.00. 20-25 singers every Wed. My other club is two nights a week for $225 per night. I have a great system and a 9000 song library. I add new songs each month.

All KJs need to get on board. Our industry is expensive to own and operate. I know, I make sure my equipment is the best and my music is always updated. If I don't charge the amount of money I do, I would not be able to make my company grow.

If your a KJ, and do not understand business, take a course. Learn what you are missing.

Don't get me wrong, when I got into the business, it was because I love to sing and entertain. But, I found out quickly that I was spending more than I was making. This is a business, treat it as such. But, have fun.

[MasterJP80]

Let me ask you all a question. How much do you think a bar makes on a Friday or Saturday?

Come on let's get real. If a bar make on an avg $3K to 4K every weekend. The waitresses are making $230 to $250 in tips. Are you going to settle for $150? I think not.

The bars you work are in the business of making money. If they hire a DJ for one night a week, they well pay around $300.00. As a KJ, I am bringing more equipment to the show. I have to entertain (not necessarily by singing, but, by antics) to make sure the crowd stays energized. For a Saturday nite, I am worth $325. Hell, they pay bands $500 to $600 a night. I will never sell myself short for a bar owner. I keep his clientel longer and they spend more money. I deserve a piece of the pie too.

I don't go after other peoples shows. However, and I did not ask for this, a friend asked me to do a show for him. Now, my friend was pretty burnt out too. Once I did the show, the owner asked me to do it every Thursday and Saturday. I feel I got a great deal. I get $225 per night sometimes more. My wife and I go eat and have a couple of drinks at this place at least once a week, and my wife attends my shows, we do not have to pay.

When you talk to owners. Be honest and don't promise a following. I am at the show to hold the clientel that the bar brings in. That's my job.

[kevin7007]

we also (my wife & i ) charge 150 but when we had our other
djs do the shows one owner only wanted to pay 100 we told him that when my wife and i are there we make him 1200 to 1700 a nite and that we are worth more than 150 so pay are other djs the same . he agreed with pleasure . my wife and i make it apoint not to talk about other companies infront of people
so please forgive us for saying so in text but there is some djs kjs giving the bussiness abad name . in this area of michigan 150 is about top rate , so we do agree that passionate djs and companies should get more at clubs . any sugg.

[madickerson]

This is interesting.. I've so far got about 1-1/2 grand, into my equipment, (powered mixer, speakers, monitor(video & audio), copmuter, cables, etc. etc. etc.... I've even got a $70 set of JBL Pro 4343 speakers, which will make even a large room uncomfortably loud with crystal clear sound) I still don't have my stage or lights, but they're in the works..

Anyway, (I digress...) after putting all this money & effort into my system, I expect to be in the $100+ hourly range. In Central Florida.. We'll see... I guess there's always bankruptcy... Any time you see a cheapo rig working for $75 a night, get drunk & "accidentally" spill your Long Island Iced Tea right in the vent holes...:-)

[madickerson]

After reading many of the posts in this area, I'm getting encouraged. I can't carry a tune in a bucket. But I can work a crowd, and make at least a handful if them want to sing. I'm not expecting to get rich or be a "Star". I just wanna make a decent living without having to go back to the corporate world.. (or worse yet as an Asst Mgr at a fast food restaurant... no offense intended anyone!!)

I'm not afraid to invest in my business, and have the ear to know what sounds good. I know I've got a high quality sound system, and presentation. I'm waiting for a few pieces of hardware, and my rig is copmlete. I bat owner friend willing to pay $150 a night for 3 nights a week as soon as I'm ready.

I plan to work at my friend's bar as long as it takes to get some polish on my presentation and crowd skills. Most of the crowd at his bar is drunk anyway and could care less... But I'll NEVER treat the crowd as such, Like one of the posts I read. Regardless of who they are, or how drunk they are, they will get respect from me and I will also encourage the crowd to give the same.

[kevin7007]

give respect get respect you will succeed!! good luck

[swany]

In our area we had a foul mouthed joker going around and offering his services for nothing to try him out. Then he would go to the top dollar for his services and that was $100, he is by the wayside in our area now and the going rate seems to be between $ 150 and $ 225 for the bars and $225 to 250 for things such as a Eagles or Moose Lodge. Pvt parties and Weddings are the top money makers. Most underbid to get their foot in the door but wind up with just that a foothold and no more if they continue that route. Just the going rate in our area.

[gotrich]

I am not saying this because i am a newbie and want the advice. I really love this life style. I love karaoke, the feeling of singing well and people coming up and saying good job, people clapping because they want too!! I have to admit I am one of the low price guys. My first gig is May 8th I have 1500-2000 songs for my first gig and bougt 2000$ in equiptment, the 1500-2000 different songs, and am doing everything I can to make money only to put it right back into the show. My first gig is 100$ If everyone helps the new guys the new guys help the nest and so on. I would do this for free in my heart just because i love it!

[Alan Bingham]

Originally posted by gotrich
I am not saying this because i am a newbie and want the advice. I really love this life style. I love karaoke, the feeling of singing well and people coming up and saying good job, people clapping because they want too!! I have to admit I am one of the low price guys. My first gig is May 8th I have 1500-2000 songs for my first gig and bougt 2000$ in equiptment, the 1500-2000 different songs, and am doing everything I can to make money only to put it right back into the show. My first gig is 100$ If everyone helps the new guys the new guys help the nest and so on. I would do this for free in my heart just because i love it!

For the sake of the industry you need to charge more, your investment demands it. We all love singing or we wouldn't be doing it.

OK looking at the hoster system, at $1475.00 plus upgrades, amps, speakers, monitors, stands, a bare bones system will run about $3500.00 with no music, add muisc and your pushing $7000.00 for a system with about 300 disks worth of music, add your books, and there goes another 500.00 print up some request slips and add some pens, and you just spend another 25.00, all in all, I think its about 8000.00 - 10000.00 bucks to start out and your going to give it to them for 100.00 a night?

I usally spend any where from $50.00 bucks to $85.00 a night as a patron. Something to think about.

[danny_g]

In my area, you are lucky to get $100 to $125 a night for the show- The bar owners here are cheap and will pay mr bodgit the $50 and not care whether or not the show has any quality to it. All they care is do they have "entertainment". In fact I tried to explain to the bar owner where I used to work that even though I am basically starting all over again that because I invested in a new system (PC based) some new music that I added thanks to a generous birthday and christmas gift from my father that there is no way that I can afford to work for the same amount that he was originally paying me much less half that amount which is what he was offering. I mean he was asking me back so I must have done a more than decent job when I was still using discs.