Microsound used for National Symphony Orchestra

[clawson]

This is just to let everyone know that the National Symphony Orchestra concert series now being broadcast by many public radio stations and commercial classical music stations around the U.S. is very nearly an "All-MTU" production. For the last year or so, the performances have been recorded straight to 24-bit Microeditor projects via a dCS 904 converter. All music editing, element production, final mixing and data reduction to 16-bit CDs for distribution have been accomplished entirely in the digital domain within Microeditor. Only older concert material (dating from before I received my portable MTU system) has been loaded into Microeditor from (mostly 24-bit) DATs.

The sonic results of keeping everything within Microeditor have been exceptional. Even those folks without "golden ears" have been able to tell the difference between the 24-bit material recorded straight to MTU and all other sources used for production--without any prompting from me!

Dave, I congratulate you and your team once again for the painstaking care that you have taken in your hardware design and software coding. We classical music people appreciate the difference that it makes!

All the best,

Chas.

--
Charles Lawson
Senior Recording & Production Engineer
WETA Radio & Television
Washington, DC

[geezer]

---Just wanted to "pile on" a bit on this one:

I had the pleasure of recording, in my fumbling and feeble way, my first 24 bit session for Charles of the NSO a couple of years ago while he was taking a rare and well-deserved vacation. His early commitment to 24bit allowed me to have an amazing audio experience.

Perhaps the most stunning part of this experience for me came when I converted the 24bit files--entirely in MTU--to 16bits and burned a CD....The math used in MicroEditor to make this conversion is impeccable, and the beauty of the 24bit world was conveyed in a very palpable way to the CD format! Anyone who heard this was convinced immediately!

Thank you both for this revelatory experience!

[geezer]

While the CD I burned in the thread above was strictly for personal audition and experimentation (No copies distributed, Charles!), I've been doing a lot of DVD work in the last year and a half, with CDs recently as spinoff product.

DVDs are native 24bit, and all of my surround and stereo mixes for these have been 24bit since day one. They have also been almosty exclusively at 48k sampling rate, which is the native rate for digital video.....This has raised some interesting questions when it comes time to produce a CD at 16bit/44.1.

Since I can't stay all-digital at 48k and use the internal MTU math to dither down, I've chosen to do an external analog conversion/mastering and dithering pass all at once. This has worked well, but probably only because I'm doing all of my editing at 24bit in MTU first.....This is incredibly important, and was really noticable sonically in the final product. (Most recent: "Kenny Rankin- Haven't We Met?" Image Entertainment) MTU's editing quality is noticably better than anything I have used or see available on the market, and, without buying some esoteric custom-built 72bit mastering system, I am unlikely to find anything else that sounds as good.

So, I guess my point is this: It is important to stay digital for as much of the process as you can, and it is important to try to do all of your 24bit work in MTU if you can....It really makes a difference.

---------

THE 24BIT SURROUND FUTURE AND MTU:

----All of the DVD work I am doing is ultimately in 5.1 surround and 24bit.....Because MTU does not have a 6channel digital I/O mechanism, this has created some highly problematic situations for me.

I have been toying with Nuendo, and should have a functional Nuendo setup with RME I/O shortly. I can tell, however, that I am NEVER going to be satisfied with any other program to do the bulk of the work I can do with MicroEditor. On the other hand, Nuendo does talk to the MX2424 and Avid and ProTools, which, of course MTU will never do.....Is there a solution? I think I'm starting to see one, based on Charles' discovery that MTU files are standard 32bit IEE, and can be imported and exported with Cool Edit:

File sharing is the key. As long as the various programs can read the files, then using whichever program you need as a "way station" (weigh? station) while working on them should work as long as you keep them in the 32bit format....This involves no digital, real-time transfers and the subsequent potential clocking and syncing errors between tracks, and should work as long as the time code lock can be maintained in the program that will ultimately spit the product out to tape.

The questions:
--While it is clear that Cool Edit (and probably Nuendo) can read MTU files, will MTU be able to read the files from the other program if they are in the 32bit IEE format? Is there any kind of file header or naming trick needed to do this?

---The Broadcast.wav format has become the defacto PC format for MX2424, Nuendo and, I believe, the PC version of ProTools. It is my understanding that this is nothing more than a .wav file with a time-stamping mechanism built in. Does anyone understand how this works? What is the possibility of of MTU reading the time stamp? Will opening a Broadcast.wav file in MTU alter the time stamp? Is there any impediment to opening a 24bit Broadcast.wav file in MTU?

---Barring use of a Broadcast.wav time stamp, are there any other ideas for maintianing sample-accurate lock to time code locations when file sharing?

Knowing the file conversion capabilities of Nuendo and Cool Edit, it seems highly likely that file sharing will work once I know the answers to the above questions and can figure out the "to-from directional protocols" with the different systems. I'm still 2 to 3 weeks away from being able to devote any serious time to testing, and would love feedback from anyone out there who can answer some of these questions.

It also seems to me that this path (i.e.- understanding file sharing and interactivity) is the only route available for "saving" MicroEditor as a competitive, modern product in the marketplace. I would think this would merit some serious attention on the part of the MTU staff, and would seem, in my opinion, to be an elegant and relatively inexpensive solution to the whole multitrack, native and plugin problem that has been plaguing marketing for MicroEditor for the last few years.....I don't see any other programs that are developing into the incredible, high powered editor that MTU has, but I also don't see any other way for MTU to avail itself of the multitrack and plug-in features that are out there.

What does everyone else think?

[Rich LePage]

I strongly agree with these comments. I think it would
breathe new life into Medit if we could support file
exchange and also save in broadcast WAV formats.

In fact it might be a way to re-introduce Medit on its
strengths as an editor if it could allow working back
and forth within other environments. This is something
MTU definitely should spend time looking into, I think.

[clawson]

Hi, guys.

I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to get back here.

First, let me state that Jim (a.k.a "Geezer") is being entirely too modest! On the occasion that he graciously filled in for me at the Kennedy Center, he turned out a marvelous, luscious recording that (consarn it!) was not selected by Leonard Slatkin as repertoire that he wanted to include in this season's broadcasts. (Perhaps it will wind up in a future season...)

RE: file exchange...

Yes, I am in whole-hearted agreement that we can squeeze some more life out of Microeditor this way. It's easy enough within CoolEdit 2000 to strip away extraneous header information so that ME will read most any files. If that doesn't work, there are some header-stripping utilities available to do the same thing. Putting the headers back, if required by another system, *may* be more problematic but I haven't thoroughly researched the question as yet. If I can't find the software utilities that I want, I may have to write them. (I've been dusting off my programming training in order to prepare for attacking these looming problems. Curse that need for sleep!) I'll post some more details as I discover things. It's a lot easier for me to do this while the NSO is on tour.

Jim, please do fill us in on your success with Nuendo. We're all eyeing the multitrack necessity and I appreciate you being willing to share your discoveries with us.

Gotta get back to production now. More soon...

Chas.

--
Charles Lawson
Senior Recording/Production Engineer
WETA Radio & Television, Washington, DC

[geezer]

---I don't yet have any direct Nuendo experience (I'm still toying with a new computer configuration and recovering from a slow money period), but 2 colleagues have given me a little insight that might be useful:

1. Billy Wolf, a long-time folk/bluegrass guru (check out the latest Seldom Scene album) and respected mastering engineer, was talking with me a while back and said that his experiences with Nuendo were positive, but that he realized that he had to convert files to 32bit before mixing them etc. for the sound to keep from being degraded....He says that the program does not do this automatically. Billy would be a very good person to talk tech with about Nuendo, and he's only one exit away from you, Chas.

2. Bill Plummer, my mixing/recording/production partner for all of the DVDs I've been working on, has his Nuendo rig up and running. He tried a full mix on one of the St. Lucia recordings we're working on (Clark Terry or Eric Benet...don't remember which he said)(somewhere between 24 and 48 tracks of 24bit material) and was very displeased with the results....felt it was compressed sounding. When he dumped the tracks out of his computer into his digital mixer (in his case, the DA7) everything opened up again....Now, I should say that he did not heed my advice from Billy about converting everything to 32bit files, so I don't know that he would have felt the same had he done this....He does like Nuendo, and contemplates using it to create "stems" to cut down on the number of tracks fro the final mix.

I am taking both of these comments to mean that my intended use of Nuendo, which is pretty limited, is probably correct, and sort of follows what a lot of people are doing with Pro Tools: They are using it for track fixing and processing, then feeding it out at unity to their console of choice for the mix...I am looking at it in the same general way....I still like mixing on a mixer, and, as long as I stay in the digital domain, I haven't been able to find anything wrong with the mixer I'm using (02R). Since I'm set up for 64plus tracks of mixing, I'm not as worried about stems.

I have spent a little time looking at my partner's rig, and it seems very useful and intuitive for a lot of multitrack functions....Scrolling waveforms, good nondestructive editing, easy access to plug-ins, etc.....But I still only see it as an adjunct to the other tools, probably more for its auto-conform/OMF capabilities than anything else, and nothing, including Nuendo, is getting me excited about editing away from MicroEditor.

Therfore: FILE SHARING, FILE SHARING!

This is where everything is headed, and I'm probably more interested in loading files back and forth from the MX2424 then from Nuendo.

Could someone from MTU think about and address the several questions I raised a couple of replies up from this one? This is serious stuff, and I don't think it's necessarily that hard to address for someone who is better with code than I am.

[Gary Boggess]

Hello Dave and Brian and all,

My question is:
I bought two MicroSound d/a converters on Ebay and they are in the smaller packaged boxes (about 7" X 2.75" X 10" size) Both seem in great shape.
The date on the inside circuit board is 1989.
I am writing to ask if these are compatible with the Krystal PCI card... via the DSP cable????????
Please make your response to my email: MIDIandSFX@aol.com

I've tried calling a number of times... keep getting the "you have reached the a-billing office" etc....

I bought (2) compatible computers as backups, one a 550MHZ for Microsync, and the other a 2.8GB clone of my newer system. And I bought (2) used Krystal PCI cards. My (2) original MicroSound systems are still working great.
With a couple hard drives, new WIN XP installs and RAM, I would have FOUR working MicroSound systems. And if the d/a converters work out it would be great.

A film I posted "Loren Cass" premiered at the Palms Casino in June 2007 at the CineFestival, in August 2007 at the Lecarno Film Festival in Switzerland. It got a great review in July's Variety and I was told many film people in Europe were impressed with the film's soundtrack = audio post work.
Go figure. I tell you... it's the MicroEditor. Editing sound for picture with my 3/4" video deck was a breeze, accurate, effiecient, fast, reliable and the end result was stellar. I still say... MTU was on the right track.

I'm probably one of the only studios left in the world who refuses to abandon MicroSound. I still love using it, and have found a way around every obstacle "progress" has thrown at it!!! I developed a protcol where ALL segments get ousted to .wav files. Firstly, its safer... and easier to backup files. Secondly, I then use Sound Forge to process the files with WAVES plugins and a zilliion other VST & Directx plugins. For reverbs, or ambience effects like delay or flangers and the like, I use ME's directx interface to access Sony's Acoustic Mirror program for KILLER reverb impulses I've collected of digital reverbs like the Lexicon's, and real ambient halls.
My clients are thrilled at the results. Many of my customers use Logic, Protools, Sonar, Cubase, and other software DAWs... but they are FLOORED when they see what I can do with the MicroSound.

OK... those "other" programs can import VST & DX plugins live right? Right.
But my clients have reported that many times past, they'd go back to the studio for a remix only to find out that their EFFECTS are missing, presets MISSING and their entire MIX IS A WASTED MESS. They way I use MicroSound, all of the EFFECTS ARE RECORDED AS .WAV FILES... so hence....
NO ONE THING GETS LOST EVER. Their in the folder. I can change the plugins and whatever... and their MIX stays locked. Believe it or not... my clients see that as a MAJOR BENEFIT. I would suppose the other systems "could" do that too... but, their users would likely consider it a pain. Sometimes, the obvious is obscured over by "progress."

Many of my clients leave the studio amazed at how much faster I can edit and mix compared to ProToys sessions they've had. But it's 2007 and although I do hear the noise in the jungle, as the restless natives are screaming: "buy ProToys... buy ProToys... buy ProToys... buy ProToys!!!" And alas.... I may have to surrender some day... but I'm bound and determined to have (4) working MICROSOUND SYSTEMS for every (1) ProToy I own!!!!!!! BeDang it!

Long live MicroEditor... the best DAW system ever.

[geezer]

Well, I'm glad things are working for you, but shortly after I posted on this thread above, I started another one that indicated some limitations I was having with Microsound when I wanted to work entirely in 24 bit......You know, I assume, that when you "save as .wav" in Microsound, you are saving as 16 bit, because that is all there was in .wav when the code was written.

I am happy that you are able to use the Direct X software in MTU, because I paid for it and could never get it to work, and received no support for it, despite my long time as a cheeleader and beta tester.

I will say that I was satisfied with all my projects that involved a final, straight 16bit master....The problem arose when I began comparing all my available methods of converting from 24bit to 16, and when I began examining all the available ways to export and import 24 bit files from MTU and back into MTU. The company also never responded to my interest in defining the files in such a way as to use the Broadcast Wave standard for import and export.

Before I began what became a very long and involved comparison of different file dithering methods and different software editing packages, I held MTUs non-dithering math as the pinnacle of converting 24 bits to 16 bit files for CD....and, indeed, it held up really well through a lot of the research process as the standard to which I compared everything else.......In the end, however, I found other methodology (using some very specific dithering inside of very specific software) to be superior in maintaining the depth, color and stereo soundstage of the original 24bit files.

Since I could not use the DirectX function in Microsound and could not readily import and export files to other software, I also felt I had to find new software, if that were indeed possible. I did find some things that were suitable and usable for some parts of my business, but which definitely did not sound as good, at least in their early iteration.....I ended up finding one product (and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there now) which did sound as good, if not better, and which ultimately wound up being even faster to use and more flexible: Wavelab. Once I figured out how to use it, the interface was remarkably similar in some ways to MTU's (even uses some of the same hot keys), and easier to organize.

.....As a result, I have a couple of MTU systems (one including the 4 channel converters and I/O, if needed) that have been sitting on the shelf unused for several years. They are available for sale for any dedicated users.....These converters are all only 16bit, though........There are plenty of good quality 24bit converters out there now that should interface fine with the Krystal, but mine are available, too...

direct contact: mudsmith@earthlink.net

[Gary Boggess]

Originally Posted by geezer

Well, I'm glad things are working for you, but shortly after I posted on this thread above, I started another one that indicated some limitations I was having with Microsound when I wanted to work entirely in 24 bit......You know, I assume, that when you "save as .wav" in Microsound, you are saving as 16 bit, because that is all there was in .wav when the code was written.

I am happy that you are able to use the Direct X software in MTU, because I paid for it and could never get it to work, and received no support for it, despite my long time as a cheeleader and beta tester.

I will say that I was satisfied with all my projects that involved a final, straight 16bit master....The problem arose when I began comparing all my available methods of converting from 24bit to 16, and when I began examining all the available ways to export and import 24 bit files from MTU and back into MTU. The company also never responded to my interest in defining the files in such a way as to use the Broadcast Wave standard for import and export.

Before I began what became a very long and involved comparison of different file dithering methods and different software editing packages, I held MTUs non-dithering math as the pinnacle of converting 24 bits to 16 bit files for CD....and, indeed, it held up really well through a lot of the research process as the standard to which I compared everything else.......In the end, however, I found other methodology (using some very specific dithering inside of very specific software) to be superior in maintaining the depth, color and stereo soundstage of the original 24bit files.

Since I could not use the DirectX function in Microsound and could not readily import and export files to other software, I also felt I had to find new software, if that were indeed possible. I did find some things that were suitable and usable for some parts of my business, but which definitely did not sound as good, at least in their early iteration.....I ended up finding one product (and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there now) which did sound as good, if not better, and which ultimately wound up being even faster to use and more flexible: Wavelab. Once I figured out how to use it, the interface was remarkably similar in some ways to MTU's (even uses some of the same hot keys), and easier to organize.

..As a result, I have a couple of MTU systems (one including the 4 channel converters and I/O, if needed) that have been sitting on the shelf unused for several years. They are available for sale for any dedicated users.....These converters are all only 16bit, though........There are plenty of good quality 24bit converters out there now that should interface fine with the Krystal, but mine are available, too...

direct contact: mudsmith@earthlink.net

Good post! I have Wavelab 4.0, and I agree... it's pretty good... and you've made me look at it again because, I'm wondering... hmmm... you know... I never used it for ANYTHING except importing CD tracks!! !!!!!

What I like THE MOST about ME (MicroEditor) ... is the editorial inferface. Especially when used in the process of film audio post. But it's also a fantastic editor for music. I've tried other systems at other studios and I'm always eager to come home to MicroSound's sheer editorial PEACE and safety. I know I don't feel that way because I'm just used to it. I feel that way because it's just a great way to edit sound... any sound. I see all the bells and whistles on the other systems. But to me, editing and mixing is what ME does best. The effects are best done elsewhere... as I myself, rely on SoundForge for at least 50% of my vocal and special processing when I need to get specific. And for mastering... SoundForge is 100% the workhorse of choice.

Yes... I've found some of the options on MicroSound to be somewhat an obstacle course as compared to other programs. I will admit that I have found the entire 24bit deal a bit frustrating. I tried a few projects that way and as far as I'm concerned... it just isn't worth the trouble it causes. None of my clients want anything in 24 bit. When working on film... I worked 44.1 @16 bit. Why? Because while I'm importing hundreds of sound effects off of Sound Ideas and other libraries I can IMPORT right off the CD discs (via WAVELAB) into a folder, and import into MicroEditor without having to dither/convert Jack **it!

And as far as music. I've made my remarks at the Academy I often speak at. The labels can hardly sell a CD anymore. More and more music is selling to I-pods or free with all the online piracy schemes. So why bother with 24 bit... and then have to worry about dithering errors and degrading conversions to MP3's? I don't.

Firstly, my clientel moan and cry about every charge I write them... and they DO NOT want to pay the $25 I charge to BACKUP their projects to DVD's now. If I were burning 24bit, I have to add another $25 to cover my time burning twice the data... and then there's the time dithering to 16bit so they can have a couple copies to play for their girlfriends. Baloney!! I'm in agreement with Dave Cox... it's like "writing checks our ears can't cash." Yeah... I know... 24bit is better... cleaner... and it's HD. But the consumer will NEVER hear it! I have a $95,000 acoustically designed control room, with mirror image walls, floating walls and RTA flat response... and guess what?... the end user will never hear what I'm producing at 16bit 44.1Khz either!!!!

I'm happy with 16bit @44.1. It's more than 98% of the musicians I've ever worked with need, want or appreciate... and I'm talking about people who 15 years ago, didn't know what Dolby B or C or HXpro was when I asked which they preferred. I'd always get a big BLANK STARE that said... err what hugh?????

I don't mean to devalue your use and desire to work with 24bit. I'm just telling my experience with all this. I have a hard enough time keeping it profitable and efficient without adding my preferences for something that's NOT going to be appreciated anyway. And to cap it off, I'd rather invest time into the quality of the "material" and its artisic values... than worry about dithering squat. The probelm isn't the sound... it's the lack of good song writing, good concepts, decent budgets and musicianship or (in film) a dang script worth burning film on it. We're all recording clean crisp decent tracks... and for the most part... the reason why most of our productions stink is because of the talent and the writers. The other degrading factor I've been wrestling with in the last couple years is the idea that directors and musicians want the world for $69.95. And I'm not about to become the Earl Shieb of recording.

As for the FOUR channel I/O... I think I'd be interested and rather soon.... so if you want to pop me a asking price, MIDIandSFX@aol.com I'll give it thought. I have Krystal cards, so I'd need to know all was compatible. I just bought two MTU d/a converters off of Ebay for $9.95 each.

Yes... we've all encountered disappointments with MicroSound... and in the end... I still say... it's the best editorial tool I've seen... and at least for me, it has been extremely reliable. I only wish I could say the same for MicroSoft Windows XP Pro. The worst thing about all of it is Bill Gates.

www.boggessmusicandsound.com

[Rich LePage]

I agree with both of you, and us long-timers gotta keep in touch more often.
I for one also still use Medit nearly every day and find it my tool of choice for intensive editing. And we seem to do a lot of that!

Most of what we do continues as 44.1/16 bit, I've had nearly no situations where anyone has requested 24 bit audio. I never did get the Direct X part of Medit to work-- we tried many times with several versions, and it just did not work with any of the plug ins we tried it with.

Difference from Gary here is we don't use S/Forge for processing, instead Adobe Audition 2.0. It represents a pretty big re-design from 1.5, and though it sure can be a resource hog, it runs very intuitively. It's also very useful for restoration and similar work. The frequency/spectal editing parts of it often are useful in that. It's very handy too for compositing dialog music effects and then mixing to stems.

With some projects, I'll pre-edit in Medit and then build as multitrack in Audition. With others I just use it as a processing host and then take the stuff back to Medit for building etc.

Adobe is releasing Audition 3.0 which supposedly has some more improvements and hogs less resources, it will be shipping end of Oct.

I find Audition is a good host for the Waves and other Direct X and VST plug ins we use a lot - it also runs the Univ. Audio powered plugs well.

We have several 2 and 4 channel Medit systems. I only have one running on Win XP, the others all are still on Win ME or even Win98.

To accomodate the newer burners, I use MicroCD to create the master files but then Golden Hawk's CDRWIN to burn from. MicroCD always did use the Golden Hawk code, but DOS version.

However-- I think Golden Hawk may have just gone out of business! I ordered a renewal recently since they had a new Vista version of CDRWIN. The order did not process, and I tried calling them-- but the phone number is now someone else entirely not into audio! Sent several emails but no reply.

By the way, have had all sorts of trouble with MAM-A (form Mitsui) media past year or so. Where it used to be problem-free and consistent, no longer so. Though we still have hundreds of discs on hand, I doubt I'll buy more, have pretty much gone to Taiyo Yuden which seems more reliable. I check most anything leaving here on a Clover analyzer and with the MAM stuff, it's been very hit or miss. The distributor has said other clients have seen the same thing. And several replicators told me same thing too.

Gary, not sure about your tabletop modules and Krystal though I bet they would work. Scary though to try without word from MTU, since can't get the boards anymore. I think all that the rack mount did (if I remember right) was bundle the clock and I/O boards from the tabletop case into a rack mount module, with cables from the 1/8" mini jacks over to the XL's on the rack mount. I seem to remember converting one ages ago. But not certain!
I think the clock board was different from the 2 channel to the 4 channel versions too. But I hope MTU will get back to you with more definite word.

I have one Vista machine here (just recent, 32 bit version) and I wonder if Medit will run on that -- a lot seems NOT to run. Audition 2 does run, the new version claims it will be fully compatible. (currently it runs under Vista compat mode as an XP compliant program). The UA powered stuff does run, they have new software for it. But Waves -- NOT!! And they want you to buy their update plan just to get Vista compat. when they release it. (for the bundles we have, like $200+ a year for that). Not unreasonable I guess, but I think I'll wait on that one! Izotope Ozone DOES run (and they don't require that Ilok key either, you can authorize their stuff to a USB flash drive and go from system to system with it).

I have a Digidesign 002R interface that is seldom used. To be compatible with others, we set that up some time ago with ProTools LE -- which I nearly never use, though I upgraded it to version 7. I really don't like Pro Tools and will do most anything to NOT have to use it! (Spoiled by Medit, I guess!!)
Actually, it's on an AMD WinXP system that also has Medit on it. But you can't use 'em both at same time, there's a conflict. What I do is disable to Digi DAE engine in Device Manager and then Medit runs fine. For the rare time I need the Digi, I just re-enable it. Works, though you'd think it wouldn't.

So, when Digi gets Vista drivers, I'll likely use their box as an audio interface for the Vista machine - to run Audition. Either that or I'll just strip the Vista and put XP on it.

Quite a few of the Avid (Digi, M-Audio, et all) things don't support Vista currently. I'm also considering a Presonus Firepod.


But Medit still is my prime tool of choice for most of what we do. It's so intuitive and so fast to work with, and I continue to love it.

Hope you'll both stay in touch. My direct contact by the way is
richlepage@worldnet.att.net.

Best regards,

Rich

[Gary Boggess]

I'm open for a 2nd audio software alternative... but I just can't seem to feel sure about any direction.

My response (for safety) was to buy TWO backup PC computers off of Ebay. One PC is a motherboard and CPU CLONE of the last computer MTU made for me in 2005... a 2.8Ghz Intel cpu & board. The second, is a 550Mhz backup to my existing 233Mhz PC for my Microsync-based Microsound system that I use for soley for film audio posting. I also bought (2) extra Krystal cards off Ebay. All in all I can put together TWO more systems. Two FAST MicroSound systems for audio... and two slower "older PC" systems with MicroSync for film sound work.

MicroSync...
It was a painful SLAM in the gut (it felt lower) to me when the computer industry dropped the older I/O slots used by the MicroSync card, and thus adopting only PCI. I still think that if the industry wants to do this... then fine... but do it in such a way that the users can BUY interfacing to work around it. Insure backwards compatibility!!!!! You just don't leave people screwed out of their industry, their jobs, their work methods, their hardware investments and essential tools used for literal survival! I'm not a fan of Bill Gates for this very reason. I mean... hello!!!... we're all practically unwilling subsidiaries of MicroSoft as it is!!! And I resent being slammed into total obscurity & obsolescence by the mandates they author while hiding in their "safe sanctuary of isolation" provided by their monopoly over the entire world!!!!

ThIS iS CrAzy... but it works!
My original MicroSound DAW is a slower 233Mhz computer... and it's only used for sound effects design or film audio posting in sync with video, all because it hosts the MicroSync card. (I own two.)

You will find it interesting that I use the two working MTU computers NETWORKED. So that while I'm on the SLOW 233Mhz computer with MicroSync editing film sound, I can open and process .wav files across the network using the faster 2.8Ghz computer with SoundForge using all of the cool plug-ins. IT WORKS GREAT THIS WAY! Doing so, I find there's no real impact to being on the slower computer!!! The MicroSound performs MOST functions just as fast on either computer.

RE: MicroEditor & Drirect X Plug-ins...
Both of my working systems use the MicroEditor DirectX interface fairly well. Oh yes... there's a few plugins that don't work... but most do. I have a couple plugins that will only work WITH MicroEditor (one is Oberhiem OB-tune)... so what's up with that!!!!????

[geezer]

.....No way of knowing what's up with the Direct X since Dave and company never responded to my issues with it.

One of my two existent systems has the Microsync, too. I used it extensively on my first few years of posting projects for TV, which all involved analogue transfers. I stopped using it when Krystal happened, or rather it stopped being as useful if I was going directly I/O from Krystal via AES. I found out after questioning Dave extensively that Microsync is only reclocking the converters on the outboard I/O, so really is not chasing when you are using a digital interface.....In that sense, it is no more valuable than any of the better native time code interfaces which just jam sync. They and Microsync still provide a good time code lock as long as you have a good clock sync between time code or video from the video tape machine and the clock source for Microsound.

In fact, since Microsound does not have a dedicated word clock input, other devices (I have used the Rosendahl/Steinberg TimeLock Pro with Nuendo) provide you a much larger palette of syncing options with other, native systems. With a word clock input, a native card can stay reliably locked to a VHS tape via the Timelock Pro by just taking the video signal as the clock reference.....I posted a 90 minute show in Nuendo this way with a VHS HiFi work tape (time code on the right HiFi channel, scratch audio on the left), and things stayed locked for the whole show once the initial jam happened.....The true chasing of the analogue Microsync action is definitely cooler, but this, again, limits you to 16bit analogue land.

The reason I got so involved in the 24bit thing was that I mixed and/or conformed and mastered about 12 or 15 music concert DVDs with 5.1 and stereo mixes between 2000 and 2003 or so. The masters were delivered as 8 tracks of 24bit/48k audio (DA78). Microeditor was absolutely of no use on these projects, and only served as an ancillary CD mastering medium for a couple of them. Even track repairs I had to do on some of the projects could not be done easily in Microeditor without tedious transfer times and tricky hand placement of repaired tracks.....I spent years asking for the functions in Microeditor that would allow for utilizing it on these projects, and never got any action on these requests......I also never got a decent explanation of how to get tracks as files back into Microeditor (as Rich seems to be able to do) from anyone here.....perhaps that is only because I wanted to be able to do it at 24bits.

One other interesting other piece of rare MTU software I do have that was quite useful in my early posting experience with MicroEditor is "MicroEDL". I don't know that anyone but me ever used it. This was a program that Larry developed on my specs before leaving for greener pastures. This program would take a linear editor's ("C" format) text file for a 4-channel audio edit and apply it to a 4 channel project with time code in MicroEditor, which allowed me to take a 4 channel stream from an early Avid editor with all level edits removed and chop it up and remix it and edit it properly once the basic offline edit was done......I used that for sure on the Hollywood Blacklist thing that won the Emmy (not for sound, but for the show), and delivered the mix on DA88 to the post house without them ever touching it before it hit air.......So that allowed me a certain amount of compatabiltiy with old-style post houses and pre-5.1 mix needs.

But this was as far as MTU got, and I think that was around 1996 or 1997. Nuendo started early on with the capability for OMF file imports and exports and multitrack output (although flawed in its original implementation), and I had a lot more file compatabiltiy right at the start with video post people, who no longer wanted to deal with the time it takes to do a real time 4 channel output......I did have to buy other file translation software to make things totally right, but at least that was possible with the other programs. Nuendo originally did not sound as good as MicroEditor for sure, but Wavelab did (and Wavelab now does 8 channel i/O and DVD-A mastering), and Nuendo is probably in the same ballpark now, along with Audition and virtually everything else......The writing was on the wall in 2000 for me, and I had to jump ship once I found the workable alternatives.

The only software packages I have felt pretty strongly about the integrity of are Wavelab (single programmer, different from the Nuendo team) and Adobe Audition....perhaps because a former intern of mine is on the Audition team. I think things are probably better at Steinberg now since Yamaha bought them, though, and Cubase, their least expensive product, is preferred by many to be superior (and does, in fact, get the upgrades to its audio engine before Nuendo does)......I have heard very good things about the sonic quality of the Samplitude line of products, but have never directly used them.....In all my casting about, Wavelab always came up with the most intuitive interface (inside the Audio Montage section), with Adobe Audition running a close second for the multitrack programs.....There are plenty of people who like Cakewalk/Sonar, too. They all have their quirks, but are all more stable than they were in the early 2000s when I was researching things heavily.

I really resisted putting my Microeditor systems on the shelf, but did not really have a choice.

If any other old timers or new timers want to contact me directly for fun or profit or just plain geezer jawboning:

Jim Smith- mudsmith@earthlink.net

[Rich LePage]

You're right Jim about getting nowhere with the 24 bit. What I have done is bring in 16 bit SF files to Adobe as RAW digital audio (per their selection) and then do whatever to them, but I then write 'em out as 16 bit WAVs so they can go back to Medit.

I seldom even do that, it's a hassle and you have to remember which "Raw" variant to use --or play around with it till it works. Instead, I usually just do a first pass edit in Medit to pull any desired "good" stuff together, and save that stuff out as a 16 bit WAV. If there are multiple takes of good stuff that I want to carry through, I just save those out separately.

Then I move it to Audition if it needs more fine tuning and/or if I'm building a multitrack with the material. Its click removal tools and the freq. and spectral editing have been very helpful at times.

It also has reasonable automation, though it does have its downsides.
I have actually run that in version 2 with one of those cheap Behringer fader controllers. (in USB mode) Though not easy to implement (partic at the Behr end), it does work OK for fader levels, mutes and a few other basic things plus transport control. I'm sure it could do more, but I ain't a MIDI programmer. It's handy once in a while, but not a setup I use regularly that way.

Beyond that there are clip envelopes you can use quite effectively, for level and panning. They stay with each clip/segment unless you clear them. So does another basic way of setting level and pan in the multitrack. ("clip properties") The other automation does not really stay-- if you insert or delete time or content from the session, it messes that flavor of automation up. But with that style, you can automate much more than level and pan. I think I did it once to do some back/forth EQ moves. But you could easily do same thing by just splitting the stuff across checkerboarded tracks probably.
That's what I usually do -- in fact, spent all day today doing that with some stuff from Japan that was all over the place.

I mostly use the clip based envelopes, which are a little like MTU amp zones, though a little harder to use. I seem to find them easiest to use with a pen tablet though. I use Audition with both a Wacom tablet for my right hand (mouse and pen come with) and a Kensington trackball for my left hand. I'm right-handed, but ages back I got comfy using Medit with left hand for pointer operations, also using a Kensington ball. I'm actually faster that way in Medit than using a right handed ball or mouse or whatever. That way, right hand is for keyboard and in Medit, often for macro commands.

Dual monitors also helps Audition somewhat, you can have the mixer and/or the plug ins on one screen and the main project view on the other. I've been running it with 2 "wide" Benq 19" monitors when doing multitrack work. The Edit View simply winds up on 1 screen usually. You can save multiple screen setups in Audition also.

On dialog, I seem to be able to get out mouth clicks and also lessen plosives like popped Ps etc easier using Audition than what I used to do in Medit. But not always so. It's a "remove single click" routine that was in earlier versions, but did not seem to work as well -- or as fast -- as in Audition 2.0. And easy enough to undo if you took out too much, one click to undo (and multiple undo levels)

But sometimes Medit using 2 segs crossfaded does it fine too. For breaths I usually reduce or cut them in Medit, using a variety of macros. But they are not hard to do in Audition at all either. Often I re-pace a lot of dialog to make it fit hit points, or a music/effects bed, or just to make it flow better. Both Medit and Audition can do this well - though I suppose I'm faster still with Medit.

Audition's time squeeze (used sparingly, and you can set up constant or varying for all or part of a file) really saved a client with a project that just would not fit to the max CD length their replicator quoted of 76 minutes without them signing waivers in case it didn't play for end users. (which they wouldn't do since it was going out all over the world) I was able to get it down to about 75.20 without any bad artifacts/burbles by messing with it and doing in multiple sections. I was fairly impressed with that.

It's de-noising (template style like what Dave was doing) also seems to work
pretty well, used sparingly. The stuff I got in from Japan had various hum and junk in some of it, and I got it down quite a bit by using that sparingly. Also was able to retrieve some dialog a client recorded on a mini-recorder that I guess was in a purse or something and everything pretty crappy sounding. But in that case, even though it had some def. artifacts, at least you could make out what was being said (though I couldn't, it was in German!!)

You can output 32 bit files from Adobe, but I just looked in their "convert sample type" screen and there's no selection for 24 bit there, just 8/16/32.
The samp rate choices do also go out to 192K, but no 24 bit in there that I could find. There's also no option for 24 bits in the record screens.

Here's something interesting (to me at least): As a result of your post, I just
went and tried typing in 24 bits into the box that offers 8/16/32. This would convert (in theory) a 44.1/16 WAV file into 192K, 24 bit per what I selected. After several minutes of number crunching, scaling, pre and post filtering etc etc-- done at 32 bits -- it now says it made a 192K 24 bit file. Hmmmm. Gotta play with that one some more! Alas however, opening the "stats" on it sez it's 32 bits, not 24.... And it really maxed out the Vista dual core machine I've been playing with in running that.... its "performance" gauge was WAY up there, though it did it. Took maybe 3 minutes.

Geez- the source file I was fooling with (44/16) was 168MB, the resulting new file is 1.27GIGS.

However, they claim version 2 (and prob ver 3) DOES handle Broadcast WAV files. I've just never done it. Apparently by that (from the help) they are talking about saving and/or preserving any metadata in the file, they also can handle XMP, which the help sez is Extensible Metadata Platform. They also say it can use the embedded BWF timestamp to insert a file into their editor.
There are some commands for it and windows for inputting metadata.

Again, my only ref is Audition 2.0 though-- maybe version 3 expands the capabilities - will find out when it shows up. You could ask the guy who you used to work with more about the 24 bit situation, too.

Great that you both posted and will look fwd to hearing more from ya.
Hope all this helps. Audition isn't used much in the circles of folks I seem to run across, but it seems pretty good for what it does. I was worried Adobe was going to drop it- because even with version 2, a lot of their "suite" stuff like Bridge and Font Capture and Gamma get installed. But now they seem to be leaning to developing it more -- as a stand-alone, non-suite product.
Some of the other stuff it installs def. slows the machine down - but I used something called Startup Commander in XP to tweak what starts with Windows and what doesn't load and that seemed to help a lot. But version 3 claims it will hog less resources too - we'll see.

Rich

[geezer]

Well I was rooting around in my barn today because I'm transferring all my gear into the new building my wife and I bought (her store is downstairs, and just opened, so I can start doing my rooms upstairs now). I discovered, and remembered, that I actually still have 2 of the 4 channel I/Os, plus the tabletop. Also, I got the tabletop with a used Krystal rig I bought, and it does interface with it just fine....The one I got supposedly had some sort of upgrade done to the converters, I think, but who knows. The 4 channel interfaces with Krystal, for sure.....I used it that way for years. The second 4 channel unit came with the third machine I had, but I just remembered that I sold the card to Geg Hopkins a while back....He did not want the I/O.

Wavelab (I'm currently using 5 and will get 6 soon) is a very quick transition from Medit, and, as I've said, is probably faster. The same kind of unlimited, non destructive, unfettered editing is the name of the game, with the addition of having full time, accurate waveforms to work with that even respond to the results of overlapping segments in a very useful way....The addition of the "track lanes" just ends up giving you another organizational tool and doesn't lay any of the limitations of a lot of the multitrack programs on you. Because of the tracks and the free overlapping on them, I usually end up with a lot less segments (called "clips" in Wavelab) stacked up to get a similar complexity that I would get in Medit....It is simply easier to stay organized in Wavelab......Wavelab's volume envelope is very nifty, too: you can create an unlimited number of adjustment points within a clip, and this is a lot easier and more fluid than Medit's similar function. I end up having to split clips less, and can create much more elegant crossfades between clips as well.....This all became more clear when I realized I could disable a lot of the automatic crossfading functions available in Wavelab and work in the more deliberate fashion I am used to.....The built-in CD mastering and burning program is way beyond Medit's, as well, and super easy to use.

Like all the other native programs, you don't get that instant 40db of gain that you get in Medit (only 6 db without processing), but this has not slowed me down any......All in all, it only took me a few days to become totally comfortable and fast in it while applying the same working methods I used in Medit. The transition was so easy that I really didn't learn a lot of the functions for a very long time.......As I have said before, the key was realizing that all the good action was in the "Audio Montage" area of the program, which the manual did not emphasize....Once I realized that that was the ticket, it was smooth sailing.

As far as the 16/24 bit and higher sampling rate thing: I can tell you that my CD masters these days that are mixed at 24 bits on a mixer that is fully 96k capable, whether I mix them at the higher sampling rate or not, are definitely better sounding than the stuff I was mixing and mastering before. The earlier stuff, though good sounding, sounds a little band-limited to me now....This extra range even translates down to the MP3s.....I will add, however, that things are sometimes tougher to control with this hugely dynamic and extended range medium....There are times I wish I was still mixing on the original O2R, even if the high end wasn't as pretty or extended....It was easier......I just hear everything now, and that sometimes leads to great anguish. The albums that sounded good on the O2R still sound good, so.....On the other hand, some of the work I have done has only started to sound really good when I have actually mixed it analogue in and out at 96k (using external converters to get it back down to 44.1). The DM2000 really kind of sounds like a big, expensive analogue console when you do this at times.....I never know what is going to sound best....I sort of hate having so many choices to make now.....This "all analogue, but digital" choice does seem to round off some of the extreme dynamic spikes, however, and make things easier for some projects.....It works differently for different recorders and different converters.....too many choices....

Although I own Audition (2.5?), I haven't really used it much.....similarly, I upgraded to Nuendo 3, but have really only used it to organize Pro Tools HD files for my MX2424s, which was pretty simple, intuitive and fast with 3 hours of 32 track studio recordings. I did have an interesting experience with N3 when I put those files together for the MXs: Nuendo converted them to 32bit, I think, which made them sound pretty odd on the MX.....I was able to just substitute the orignal PTHD 24bit BroadcastWave files into the appropriate folder, and all things were put right again......I've also mastered really good sounding albums recently that were recorded entirely in Cubase on a Mac laptop....Too much

Perhaps the most interesting piece of newer gear in my rig is the Alesis HD24XR....Cheap as dirt, simple as all get out, uses cheap IDE drives, but the converters on the XR sound pretty good (better than the standard unit)....I recorded my son's Death Metal band on it, and coming out of it analogue into the DM2000 at the normal (44.1) sample rate really kicked ass. I'm still kind of shocked, to tell you the truth. It's really funny how different sets of converters and recorders manage to sound......Interesting thing about this unit is that there is a Yahoo users' group where a third party donation-ware software interface has appeared that allows great, easy transfers of the proprietary file format into .wav or .aif into ye olde computer.....Although it is clear that there will never be any upgrades, there are tons of these things out there, and they work, and they are still making them.

Anyway, there sure is a lot to work with out there today.....and I'm still willing to get off my MTU stuff....make me an offer.

js

[Rich LePage]

Excellent stuff from Jim, as always.

And I totally agree about the converters being a huge diff too. It's amazing how different in fact, from mediocre to really good - and more money does not necessarily mean better either.

Very interesting about the Alesis, something I will also check out as a unit like that might be useful at times around here. I never went down that partic. road when Mackie and others were making similar units.

I will have to give Wavelab another demo based on his notes. As for Audition, a new Mix magazine showed up yesterday and there's a brief review of Audition in there which seemed to mention many of the same things I posted.
Audition has built in CD burning too, but I've never used it, preferring to stick with the MTU and Golden Hawk combo since that has worked really well for us for a long time. But if Golden Hawk is now gone, I might have to look for future at other stuff.

Geezer and I both have discussed differences we've noted between discs and recorders as well.

Geg Hopkins? Gosh, there's a name have not heard in years-- he used to post here a LOT!

Likely Gary will want to offer for Geezer's MTU stuff. But if he's not interested, I might be. We have a lot of it but I guess never hurts to have a few more spares if price is right. Heck I have even some of the pre-Krystal boards packed up someplace around here!

Hope you are both well and good luck with the new building Jim. Sounds like a lot of space- terrific!

Rich

[admin]

GaryB, the I/O Module cable is identical for the "Tabletop" and "Rack mount" I/O Modules; i.e. it'll work.

I'm sorry I wasn't available to talk when you called. My wife's step-father had just had a stroke and she is up there helping him and her mother. She is an MTU employee and I have had to carry her ball also.

Jim, I don't want to start a word war cause I don't have the time, but you forgot how much time we spent trying to go to the 24-bit wave format. Chas Lawson was the main pusher on that as I recall. He's the initiator of this thread... about National Symphony Orchestra. The 24-bit SF format didn't work on many of the tests we ran. We had part of it, but the rest and interfacing with other gear wouldn't fall in line. With all we had on our platter, and Larry leaving (for lower pay I might add, but more status/security his wife needed), we simply couldn't finish it.

The real killer was Motorola. They lied to us... point blank! Eight months after they made firm 5+ year commitments to us (7 people heard the phone conversation), they discontinued the 56401 digital I/O, which also happened to be the clock generator for Krystal. They also dropped the Variactor diode that we used to do the magic in Microsync to lock to a +/-50% sync range. No other product even came close... +/- 12% was the best I ever saw advertised for anything else.

Had Motorola not pulled the rug out from under us, I would have considered keeping Medit going. Larry and I did discuss porting over to another 56301 card. We all knew Medit was GREAT... you guys helped us polish it. But we were just too far ahead of the time to win. Syntrillium and Sonic Foundry were "marketable" and were sold. MTU was considered for a short while by Sony, but not formally. Now our pioneering work is being adopted by others.

With Krystal production limited to the 400 56401 chips we bought (and 800 Variactor also), we had a limit on our lifetime. When the market shifted to software only taking a lot more market share, there was no sense in continuing pushing a dying horse. I paid the license for John LaGrou's POWr dithering, but we didn't have the staff to integrate it. He also never told me his was better than Medit's. Thus, it would have been for you, Chas and a limited few who needed the "prestige" of POW-r versus just as good home-grown Medit.

There was a LOT we invested in trying to attain 24-bit, but it was all futile. I hope now you will be a bit more positive. There's no need for sour grapes at this late date. After all, you were one of the main external "developers" on our team. If we had unlimited financial resources, things may have turned out differently. Also, in 2002 my now-ex wife demanded a divorce. Talk about trying to keep your head up and still breathe. MTU did survive, but we had to take a hard look at Medit, and it was just too much to try to convert to Software-only - sans Krystal. Sigh.....

Great to hear from you all you guys. I miss all of you and the great discourses we had in the past, and the fantastic energy of developing and polishing Medit to be what it was.

BTW: We have the best Vocal Remover available... to our knowledge anyway. It can even remove non-center panned vocals and instruments, and retain Low and High frequency music panned the same as the vocals. Really cool. Try the Vogone demo.

[geezer]

You know very well that I have zero sour grapes about the whole death of Microeditor saga....I was clear about what I thought was needed from the beginning, and got back whatever information I got back....then I went on my way, and have continued to reply to posts here and give information about what I am doing to other users so they can make use of it in the event it would help them....

No anger. No sour grapes. Simple, scientific realism. I waited until the last possible moment to jump ship, really, always hoping that some of my requests would bear fruit. To that end, I made an effort to restate my requests and concerns in a more elegant and direct fashion continually. This particular thread, which currently spans 8 years, clearly documents some of those concerns and requests.

I knew before the start of this thread that Larry's leaving, Motorola's lack of support and honesty- along with the financial issues dogging the company- had all conspired to keep you from the path you had set out so resolutely to follow in the beginning. That path, as I have stated many times, was the gold standard by which I judged all other software/hardware combos.

We are way beyond the need to be worrying about negativity, I think.....You know, I just wrote another magazine article (for Radio Magazine) last April in which I, again, laid out the saga of my own DAW journey and stated again for all to see how incredible the longevity of Microeditor was for me, and how unusual it was in this business.....I was describing the state of the whole DAW business for the radio crowd, and Microeditor was, as always, the pivotal system by which all before and after were measured.

In other words, despite the fact that I no longer use my MicroSound systems, your legacy and legend are intact........Those of us who are so attached to that legacy just need some friendly help in translating our work habits and needs to other systems that are more connected to the current workplace. That is all that is going on here. The memories are still fond. The reality is still what it is.

[clawson]

Hi, all!

I still use Microeditor on a daily basis for NSO and my radio work. I must use other packages as well to have a complete box of tools to accomplish all my goals, but MTU still gets the lion's share of my daily work. (One of the producers at WETA absolutely refuses to use anything else...until all the hardware ultimately dies, anyway.)

Dave writes:
Jim, I don't want to start a word war cause I don't have the time, but you forgot how much time we spent trying to go to the 24-bit wave format. Chas Lawson was the main pusher on that as I recall. He's the initiator of this thread... about National Symphony Orchestra. The 24-bit SF format didn't work on many of the tests we ran. We had part of it, but the rest and interfacing with other gear wouldn't fall in line.


It was the industry, not I particularly, who was pushing for 24-bit. For classical music, 24-bit is the minimum required to handle the music. It's just physics. Without 24-bit, I would have been forced to abandon MTU a long time ago. (However, even MTU at straight 16-bit is still a remarkable sounding system...besting some of the other products found in many big studios today.)

I was able to import/export MTU 24-bit files with other programs pretty handily thanks to Larry having written the format according to IEEE standards. This allows me the editing freedom of MTU bundled with the processing available in other systems. (I have described the steps in one or more of the threads here. It's not hard to do.)

I am not bitter about how things worked out—just disappointed that MTU wasn't able to rule the industry way back when. Other programs are just now catching up to what Dave and company had mastered in the late 80s/early 90s. We can't always get what we want.

Gotta run back to the Kennedy Center now. More later if I can manage it...

Best to all,

Chas.

[Gary Boggess]

What a wonderful collection of posts! Dave Cox and MTU should be proud of their diversity and intelligence of his past users.

MicroSound still produces the 90% of my business.
www.boggessmusicandsound.com

And I have kept crossing fingers that MTU would somehow get inspired, pick up the valuable remnants of MicroSound and develop the next generation DAW... the MicroSound Hal-9000 (tm).

I too have had to jump into other fomats. SoundForge, Wavelab, Cubase, Acid, Vegas Video 6.0 and nearly 40 other audio tools have been installed on my computer for years now. I have an Emu 0404 PCI audio card with ASIO installed right next to Krystal. Collectively, these programs and utilities give me all of the functions & tools I need. Yet... MicroEditor is the absolute pinnacle of what editing mixing sound should be... and so, that's it's job in my facility... which is the most important job as far as music and film sound go.
Many of my clients understand MicroSound to be the most valuable asset to their productions. They know all about ProToys. That's why they're my clients!

[Rich LePage]

I'll echo Gary that Medit is still a very big part of just about everything we do - whether for the intial record or the final master. I've just changed some of the stuff in between-- mostly to use plug ins and/or do things that were either more difficult or just not possible in Medit due to where it left off after the Motorola debacle.

But Medit is my #1 "no problem solution" to many things, even though it means having to do some workarounds at times to keep using it in what we do. The advantages to me seem to far outweigh the downsides for a lot of projects we seem to get.

Sad about the 24 bits of course. That would have made it even more useful and more longevity.

Can also echo Gary's comments about clients and Pro Tools. Many people I work with are amazed by the results we get - and most of my competitors are pretty much all-Digi, all the time. Clients often rave about the quality of our work versus some others, and also how quickly we can often get their stuff done. One of our biggest "selling points" for ages has been often exceeding the client's expectations by a considerable margin and MTU has played a very big role in that for a heck of a long time.