Legal or illegal

[muzicman144]

The KIAA has the president of Stellar Records, who did produce CDG's, on record as stating that Stellar Records is of the opinion no downloading of CDG song files to a computer is legal or has been deemed legal by any US Law. I guess that is just what it is, an opinion.
It would be a good thing if the law makers or breakers could come up with a thorough legal hearing and decide what is or is not legal in this downloading process. It seems to be worked out pretty well on non CDG downloading as there are many websites to download from. Only in the CDG side is where there is apparently a licensing problem.
muzicman144

[BooBoo]

I get the distinct feeling that the KIAA opinion is based on what they feel is best for "them". When they get into the download market, I am guessing their opinion will change.

Besides, if all the players are in the download market, who will want to fight it? Laws are only challenged when there are two sides. If all the players are in the download market, and it seems to be heading in that direction, then the "law" isn't an issue. Even if one roague decides to challenge, there are several players that can be used to refute the challenge.

Downloads seem to be here to stay and the KIAA is going to be the lone duck. They best change their stance soon if they want any support at all.

[RandyMcCharles]

I thought that downloads were digitally signed (like iTunes) to prove ownership. I am glad to hear that Karaoke-Version looks legit. Since they produce rather than resell, they have titles you can't get anywhere else, which is why I am looking at them. I suppose I could also ask the producers if certain download distributors were authorized by them. It just seems odd that with all the 'everyone is illegal' shouting going on that no one has actually made a naughty/nice list online. While I appreciate some of the information on the KIAA site, their vaugeness and lack of authority references makes me not trust their agenda.
PS. Since there are no karaoke producers left in Canada (increasing license fees have killed them), we Canadians have no option but to purchase from other countries. Many distributors (all in the US) use UPS to ship to Canada, which adds up to $70 to the cost of shipping. (UPS charges individual broker fees twice). Shipments from UK and Austrialia add about $10 (broker fees = almost zero). So bulk buying from the UK or AU isn't bad. If you just want 1 disk, however... It is much cheaper to download and burn your own disk. I haven't done this yet, but once I nail down legality you can bet I will.

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

Besides, if all the players are in the download market, who will want to fight it?

But all the players (assuming you mean the manus) have stated that when they go download, the downloads will not be legal to use for commercial purposes - ie karaoke in a bar.

[BooBoo]

Originally Posted by Lonman

But all the players (assuming you mean the manus) have stated that when they go download, the downloads will not be legal to use for commercial purposes - ie karaoke in a bar.

They all state that now on their CDs too, don't they? I think that's to cover them in case of "resale" (ie, included on 500,000 song drives).

[RandyMcCharles]

I emailed Karaoke-Version asking about burning their downloads to CDG and singing from them in a karaoke bar. The short answer is that if the bar or KJ has an entertainment license it is legal. (The long answer is much longer as they provide music for more than just karaoke singers. Musicians are a large share of their market. There is also the question of the stance of individual jurisdictions since music licensing in general is in upheaval.) I did not ask about using their product as a karaoke host (since I am not a karaoke host) but I assume the answer is the same since the host or bar is paying enterainment fees. As a karaoke singer, singing from personally purchased karaoke msuic, I think I also have 'fair use' rules in my favor.

[ddouglass]

I believe you are right. I believe that Canada, the UK and Australia all require KJ to be licensed, where in the US it is the venues that have to have the licenses.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I emailed Karaoke-Version asking about burning their downloads to CDG and singing from them in a karaoke bar. The short answer is that if the bar or KJ has an entertainment license it is legal. (The long answer is much longer as they provide music for more than just karaoke singers.

Seems to me there are two issues here. Most clubs have paid their dues to ASCAP-BMI, etc., but the karaoke issue seems to be treated a little differently. Seems someone is seeing extra dollars to someone's pocket where karaoke is concerned. I don't see the bars and clubs playing live music getting the attention karaoke places are getting as far as legality of the music is concerned, only if its recorded, but most pro bands now use some tracks in their shows. This is never addressed.
I use karaoke tracks to do a one man show, which puts me under the eye of the karaoke police, but, what if i used my band to record tracks, made a cdg out of it, how would that be different from a live band playing the same song in the same venue. NOW i realize i have recorded the track, but am not selling the track, but using it to make money, in reality doing the same as a band. Or if i used my synthesizer to do all the backup and played it live as a band does.
As one can see, this is something that will take more than the KIAA, SoundChoice lawsuits, etc. is doing to clear up.
most of you just address the karaoke legality and i understand that, but, we are all in the same boat when it docks in court.
muzicman144

[Lonman]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

They all state that now on their CDs too, don't they? I think that's to cover them in case of "resale" (ie, included on 500,000 song drives).

No they state on the cdg's that unauthorized public performance prohibited - if the club is paying ASCAP/BMI etc, then it is no longer unauthorized. Not sure about ascpa but bmi has karaoke option in their contract/application.

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

... but, what if i used my band to record tracks, made a cdg out of it, how would that be different from a live band playing the same song in the same venue...
muzicman144

The one big difference that causes most of the karaoke problems is that karaoke displays copyrighted lyrics to the public. Bands usually do not display the lyrics. Lyrics and music are 2 totally separate issues.

In the U.S, ANYONE can record a song and sell it as long as they pay the licensing fee to the person(s) that hold the rights to it, whether the rights holders like it or not. Thats why companies that make backing tracks can make anything you are willing to pay for.

Including written lyrics is a whole nuther story. If the rights holder to the lyrics won't give permission to record the lyrics (in written form) or display them in public, you are stuck. To make matters worse, if they give permission and then later change their mind, the cdg manufacturer has to stop making cdg's with those songs on them.

[muzicman144]

[quote=mindonstrike;96915]The one big difference that causes most of the karaoke problems is that karaoke displays copyrighted lyrics to the public. Bands usually do not display the lyrics. Lyrics and music are 2 totally separate issues.

This is exactly what i'm attempting to stress here. Now i don't offer lyrics to the public, even using a Chartbuster track, or using a homemade track made with my band and KHPro. I am a one man show, no one sees my lyrics or my teleprompter. Unless you get on stage with me, you don't know what i'm using. But that apparently doesn't excuse me like it does a live band, even when they use some tracks to back up their sound, and most road bands do that now.
muzicman144

[Robster]

ok sort of off topic but not.... in the uk we have different laws , there is a licence in place for music called the produb now any dj that has converted music to a format on a computer has to pay for a licence

1st tier ...for 1-5000 tracks its £250 thats UK pounds !

2nd tier....for 5001 - 10000 its £300

there are higher tiers but i will use these first two for examples there is a top up fee if you use karaoke tracks so for the first tier it goes up to £300 and the second tier it goes up by £60 to £360

and each year you pay a top up rate of £100 for music or £120 for karaoke for new tracks you may add up to a 1000 new tracks


That's all very fine and well but the licence people don't represent , or own , or manage the rights to any Karaoke track!

After emailing back and forth i got this answer

Hello Robert

Apologies for the delay in responding to your enquiry, which has only just been passed to me.

No CDG discs are currently registered with PPL and, as you state, this means that the pro-dub licence does not cover any copying or converting of these discs.

You are correct that you would need to contact the manufacturers in order to secure their permission. PPL is beginning the process of contacting the manufacturers ourselves with a view to registering the tracks, but for now permission is still required from the manufacturers directly.

Kind regards

Mark

MARK STEEL
Assistant Rights Negotiation Executive
PPL
1 Upper James Street, London W1F 9DE
T +44 (0)20 7534 1261 / F +44 (0)20 7534 1367
mark.steel@ppluk.com
www.ppluk.com

when a karaoke track is made its in the style of the original the karaoke manufacturers buy a licence to make this track what they then make is there property , they then own the rights the pll dont have any karaoke tracks as far as i am aware .

KJ's already pay over the top prices for specialist discs as it is , CDG discs are not inexpensive and individual tracks in MP3+G format are not inexpensive compared to music tracks either . But stangly enough if you buy the file in MP3+G format and no conversion has taken place you don't need a licence or if you buy a music track on line again you don't need a licence its just for the converting of discs you have already bought!!


now if i was selling something when i didn't own it and never did and was taking money ...giving people the impression that it gave them the right to do something that it doesnt ...that would be considered fraud wouldn't it? but hey im just an individual.

so they don't represent or own the rights for any karaoke track that i know about so i wonder where exactly does the £20-80 depending on the tier top up go?

The UK system is really messed up !

[RIKKI TIKKI]

Robster,

Just curious as to what the penalties/fines are for DJ's/KJ's that are not licensed, or are kinda illegal?

[Robster]

Originally Posted by RIKKI TIKKI

Robster,

Just curious as to what the penalties/fines are for DJ's/KJ's that are not licensed, or are kinda illegal?

The new licence was introduced i believe august 2008 it is only for converted material so if you download a mp3+G as is to your performance drive no licence is needed ..only converstion from cd lp tape to a digital format. so if you still use CDs for music no licence is needed its the conversion the produb is needed. so basically you have to pay twice if you bought the original and now want to use a Computer.

The produb people say they are not out to prosecute but educate so if they find someone they will inform them they need to purchase a licence etc and only after that will they take tougher action

so far as i can tell although it is law NOT ONE SINGLE person has been prosecuted of forced to buy a licence.

I dont know for certain but i believe that less than a 1000 DJ's in the UK have bought this license ! The ones that have are plastering web sites saying that djs without the licence are dodgy illegal ..when they might not be and just using original discs on hardware players.

I Think if a dj was prosecuted and he took it to court and was represented by a good barrister he would probably win as there are so many things that make this unfair.

oh and another thing when you buy a licence you sign away some of your rights as the conditions are that they can have access to your equipment and gear to check your collection but if you dont have a licence they would need a warrant!

I wish to support artists and make sure they get there fair share BUT it grinds my gears when i have paid once for my karaoke and they want me to pay again and i dont think the money will go to the artists at all in the CDG karaoke case.

[RandyMcCharles]

This all stinks of a cash grab. The laws for music have been around for a long time and new laws for downloading music are being driven by the much larger non-karaoke music market. Exceptions, extra fees, circumventing purchaser's rights, etc. all looking looking to legally or frequently just scare more money out of you. I'm glad I'm just a karaoke singer and not a KJ so my exposure to this nonsense is limited. I still do, however, want to buy music for my personally collection legally. All this crap makes it real difficult to determine what is or isn't legal.

[ddouglass]

Careful Randy. My wife, my sister-in-law and I started out as just singers. Next thing I knew I had bought two complete setups and we were doing shows. We are now down to two shows a week and an occasional party which is managable without taking over our lives.

[RandyMcCharles]

Yes, this does worry me Especially as I have not kept all my karaoke purchase receipts.

[Musicman51]

Robster,

Just curious as to what the penalties/fines are for DJ's/KJ's that are not licensed, or are kinda illegal?

I don't know...but i'll tell ya this. With fees like that, i'll bet not many KJs are making any money there..lol I went out this past weekend with a nice young lady, and we decided to visit some private clubs that advertised karaoke. I was shocked to find, that 3 we visited that advertised in the newspaper they had karaoke, owned their own karaoke machines. Had members of the club volunteer a turn to run karaoke after the fish fry, and to add insult to misery. Many members brought in there own mostly copied disc, and also donated copied disc to the club. When i made out my singer slip to go up and sing i had no idea, untill i saw the "Memorex" karaoke disc being loaded into a very slow to cue VocoPro DVD/Karaoke machine. Seems now it's not just kj's, but clubs getting into the illegal disc situation. perhaps it's the economy?

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

I don't know...but i'll tell ya this. With fees like that, i'll bet not many KJs are making any money there..lol I went out this past weekend with a nice young lady, and we decided to visit some private clubs that advertised karaoke. I was shocked to find, that 3 we visited that advertised in the newspaper they had karaoke, owned their own karaoke machines. Had members of the club volunteer a turn to run karaoke after the fish fry, and to add insult to misery. Many members brought in there own mostly copied disc, and also donated copied disc to the club. When i made out my singer slip to go up and sing i had no idea, untill i saw the "Memorex" karaoke disc being loaded into a very slow to cue VocoPro DVD/Karaoke machine. Seems now it's not just kj's, but clubs getting into the illegal disc situation. perhaps it's the economy?

Prime candidate for lawsuit.

[RandyMcCharles]

If that bar was here in urban Canada, the karaoke would be shut down immediately and the bar would pay huge fines. If I took a Memorex CD into a bar no KJ would play it. I'm currently trying to determine if they would play a purchased backing track. I suspect many wouldn't take the risk.