Smoking Venue And Hoster

[JNS02]

MusicMan, Michigan is trying to pass a law to stop smoking in all public places. The only exception would be casinos. I also think that since VFW's, American Legion's, Am Vets, etc. are not 'public' they may also be an exception.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

Sorry for the double post. But i forgot to mention. That with michigan's anti get tough smoking laws. Starting next month. When you come to michigan for a visit, you better bring plenty of your favorite smokes with ya. Not only are we telling you where you can, and can't smoke. But we are also telling you what type of cigarrettes you can and can't smoke..yep. Starting jan 1st. This state will no longer sell regular cigarettes. We will only sell those that are "Self-extinguishing Cigarettes". Like the seat belt law, it's for a persons own protection. 1000's die each year in house fires caused by an unattended cigaro. Many of those killed never smoked, and through no fault of their own. Some who are complaining about their"rights" being violated should stop and think about the trmendious cost to others that smoking causes. lying in the hospital bed, assisted by breathing machines gasping for breath, running up a cost to the tax payers of around $3,000 a day. Like i said, i did it in my ummm...younger more foolish days. Now my only bad habit is karaoke......
http://www2.woodtv.com/dpp/health/La...s-some-smokers

I do feel sorry for your smokers. Texas went to those last year and I have nearly set the house on fire a few times. Yes they do go out when they hit one of those bands, but if you happen to catch it and not have to re-light, then it burns underneath the band and drops it off lit from the back end. If it happens to fall outside the ashtray then whatever it lands on may catch as well. I used to keep a paper towel under my ashtray to keep the table clean, but can't now for fear of it catching.

Dale...my brothers wife says his nasty disgusting football habit all winter is starting to git the best of her, and is taking a tole on her health. Under your therory. He has a "right" to his disgusting habit {according to his wife} as well. I will tell him, that he has the "right" to watch football at any bar and resturant in the area because he's a tax payer. And they best supply him with television sets. Or at the very least a seprate room away from his wife, and others who hate football to enjoy his nasty disgusting {according to his wife} addition.

Don't remind me....I have to go to my computer room to watch football and to smoke. We did decide to not smoke in the main part of the house when we bought this place for the sake of our extended family. I smoke in only one area at the back of the house and they only breathe in the other part of it.

[RandyMcCharles]

I think Muzicman was suggesting that of the venues 'he' plays, the non-smoking venues are better behaved. This will not hold true everywhere. Of the venues I go to sing at, the older the crowd the better behaved. Nothing to do with smoking or even drinking. The younger crowds just have less respect for people and things. One of the KJs here will not host younger crowds. He gave that up years ago and will now only host older venues.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I think Muzicman was suggesting that of the venues 'he' plays, the non-smoking venues are better behaved. This will not hold true everywhere. Of the venues I go to sing at, the older the crowd the better behaved. Nothing to do with smoking or even drinking. The younger crowds just have less respect for people and things. One of the KJs here will not host younger crowds. He gave that up years ago and will now only host older venues.

i'm the same way, i quit doing bars,due to younger dis-respectful crowds, i dont even do teen private parties anymore, but there will always be one in every crowd, i just do semi upscale restaurants ( you'll never believe that these people loved to do karaoke ) and i do country clubs , you don't see a lot of them smoking cigarettes ( in country clubs ), just cigars, the only drawback was i don't get paid the same night,good tippers though, and they are all good behave..just tired of hearing " My Way, New York New York "

[Musicman51]

MusicMan, Michigan is trying to pass a law to stop smoking in all public places. The only exception would be casinos. I also think that since VFW's, American Legion's, Am Vets, etc. are not 'public' they may also be an exception"

Not sure if this was addressed to myself or not. But since i do live in this god forsaken..well this state i will try to remark to this comment. You can find the article link on one of my other post here in this thread. But the only public places exampt from this new non smoking mandate. Would be private vehicles, and state and indian ran casinos. thats it. Private clubs such as VFW's American Legions, Elks, Moose, AmVets, etc fall under this new no smoking mandadte. It will be illegal on May 1st 2010 to smoke indoors at clubs such as the ones i just mentioned. Actually, our state government hates to see the tax dollars from a pack of cigarettes go bye bye. Here in michigan we have one of the highest, if not the highest tax on tobacco products in the nation. But...... as i said before the "majority" have spoken. You know, it's kinda like. I purchase a brand new chevy, pay $25,000 for it, $350 a month insurance, gas tax {one of the highest in the nation outside california i understand}, road tax, tolls, car licenses each year, driverse license. It's my private property, i bought paid for it, pay to use it. Yet the majority say i can't drive wherever i please in any direction, or how fast, or drunk. Same thing as the smokers {rights} privileges debate. As i said..i can sit here and sympathize with youse smokers out there..i was a 3 pack a day smoker myself. I know it's tough. I wish each smoker the best of luck, if you decide to continue smoking, or to just give it up and give in to the masses. I have enjoyed everyones views on this subject. The debate will continue for years to come i'm sure. I wish all you guys a great christmas, and if you should decide to try and give it up and quit smoking..remember KEEP QUITTING untill you finally do. Best of health and luck in the new upcoming year. God Bless, George

[RandyMcCharles]

We regularly attend 2 karaoke bars. One has patons of all ages but regular singers aged 25-75 that includes several semi-pro singers. There is always a wide variety of songs and styles. The other has most patrons (singer and non-singer) aged 35-75, almost no younger people (unlike the first venue) where the singers sing mostly broadway, with several songs sung every single week. We frequent these venues because of the lack of unruly young folks. We occasionally go to more typical bars with younger folk, most of whom won't sing until they've had 1 too many. (Note we are 50ish and have put young unruly days behind us.)

[ddouglass]

Texas has also debated the smoking ban several times and so far it hasn't passed, though it is getting closer. All of the major cities here have passed their own bans, but for now we in the sticks don't have a ban. I do suspect it is only a matter of time. When that happens you wil find me on the patio outback of the VFW.
The VFW where we play every weekend is an "open" post simply because we don't have enough members to support the post and we are only 1 of 3 watering holes in this area. However, we have very strick rules and anyone who gets unruly is barred and usually it is permanent. The young people who come in there learn to have respect for the flag, country, and people who are their elders or they are asked to leave. We do not tolerate disrepect to anyone in the post.
We always have a good crowd of all ages and some great singers. Thankfully we only have one who wants to sing New York, New York and she comes in very seldom.

[RandyMcCharles]

Sounds great. Next time I'm in Texas, I'm dropping by.

[muzicman144]

As for the Florida smoking law, no smoking in any public place, including restaurants, and restaurants that have a bar area. A "stand alone" bar, one that derives no more than 10% of its gross from sale of food, smoking is allowed. Casinos, private clubs are exempt.
As i stated, i play in smoking and non smoking venues, mostly to the older crowd. I stand by my view that where i play, the non smoking crowd is better behaved, and i make better money. I play both and do not discuss my views on smoking except to each his own. Lucky me, i don't do karaoke, so "New York, New York" is only played when i choose it to be, But i would be amazed if repetition is only noticed with the older crowd, seems the last show i saw at a young crowd venue, a lot of repetive songs were played, guess it's just what you can stand.
muzicman144

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by Musicman51

If "Your" "private property" is open to the public. It is no longer private. Just because you own and run a bar, does not give you the right to pick and choose which laws you intend to keep. Under your theory, you can deny me the free equal use of your bar simply because i'm a hillbilly with bad spellen... lol

That is exactly my point. If I chose to, I could deny you access for any reason I so choose. It is not your God given right to be in my PRIVATE business. I have kicked people out simply because they are too stupid to be here. That is not a general hatred of stupid people, but driven by the market forces. If I allow this idiot to stay, how many good paying customers am I going to lose?

Originally Posted by Musicman51

You are again...by the "majority"..told, ordered, enforced to..keep noise at a minimum, not sell illegal drugs, allow prostatution, gamling etc.

The examples you give (other than the noise) are illegal anywhere, anytime. Not "magically" illegal when they walk in the door. Besides, I would not allow those things in the bar because of market pressure, not because it is illegal. I don't get fined if some prostitute is caught trying to pick up a John. I would kick her out because she is bothering my paying customers.

Originally Posted by Musicman51

I can expect to walk into your "Private" open to the public, licensed liquor establishment, and expect you to ensure my health, safety, and well being. If you choose not to because it is your own "private" open to the public for profit property. It won't be for long..

I don't run a daycare or nursing home. You assume a certain risk by being in the bar. As far as longevity, I have been doing this for the last 20 years. Don't think that people haven't tried to sue me, they have. But I have not lost a single case yet. If it were by my own doing that someone got hurt, I would feel morally responsible and be glad to do whatever needed to be done, but that hasn't happened yet. The only injuries that have occurred were either their own fault, or the fault of another.

Originally Posted by Musicman51

Dale...my brothers wife says his nasty disgusting football habit all winter is starting to git the best of her, and is taking a tole on her health. Under your therory. He has a "right" to his disgusting habit {according to his wife} as well. I will tell him, that he has the "right" to watch football at any bar and resturant in the area because he's a tax payer. And they best supply him with television sets. Or at the very least a seprate room away from his wife, and others who hate football to enjoy his nasty disgusting {according to his wife} addition.

They are called sports bars. They are there because of a market for them, not because it is some "Right" him, or his wife, has.

On the public safety front. I don't have bouncers. I always thought they cause more trouble than they are worth. Many bars do have them though. Do you think they have a bouncer there to protect you? Not hardly. The bouncer is there to protect the interest of the bar only.
Checking IDs to make sure the bar doesn't get fined.
Kicking out rowdy people to keep the good paying customers.
Keeping the perverts away from the pretty girls to ensure the good looking girls are there to attract the guys.
Stopping fights because it is hard to sell drinks when a fight is going on, and you don't want to alienate your good paying customers.
Keep people from destroying the bars property.

None of these duties are explicitly geared toward the customer's health and safety, they only overlap by coincidence.

On another front, I am only 1 week away from the due date of my first grandson. My wife and I are very excited. And no, I won't be smoking around him I'll leave that choice to him when he is old enough to chose whether or not he wants to be around that. I feel bad for the rest of you that won't be getting a grandson for Christmas, but don't hate me because I am

[ddouglass]

Mark, I don't hate you because you are getting a Grandson for Christmas, but because you are getting a Grandson. I have 4 Granddaughters and no Grandsons and have been told by my kids there will be no more.

[RandyMcCharles]

I'm not sure about the US. In Canada businesses have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason. The people, then, have to right to go after businesses for human rights violations if they feel they have a case. eg. If a bar says 'only white people allowed', they would lose a human rights lawsuit. If a men's club says 'only men allowed', chances are a lawsuit would fail. The recent question has come up about private smoking clubs. I am not aware of any in Canadian smoke-free districts. If it does happen, I am sure the question of how private is private will come up. eg. If you pay cover charge (membership) and smoke, you would prabably lose the argument that you are private. If you charged a large annual membership fee, you may be able to convince a court. It will be interesting to see if anyone has or will attempt this.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Mark, I don't hate you because you are getting a Grandson for Christmas, but because you are getting a Grandson. I have 4 Granddaughters and no Grandsons and have been told by my kids there will be no more.

I had 2 wonderful daughters but I always had a hankerin' for a boy. Now I can at least teach somebody about woodworking, construction and mechanical aptitude. I lost hope for my son-in-law to learn anything useful

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I'm not sure about the US. In Canada businesses have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason. The people, then, have to right to go after businesses for human rights violations if they feel they have a case. eg. If a bar says 'only white people allowed', they would lose a human rights lawsuit.

Discrimination only applies to protected classes. Race, creed, religion, gender, etc. For instance, fat people are not a protected class, I could have a weight limit and not violate any discrimination laws. I could say no blond people, that is safe. I do, in fact, say no idiots. They too are not protected under US law.

[RandyMcCharles]

They are protected classes because past successful legal action resulted in case law. Private smoking clubs may require future challenges to establish case law, just as music downloads when they first appeared generated court battles resulting in case law.

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

They are protected classes because past successful legal action resulted in case law. Private smoking clubs may require future challenges to establish case law, just as music downloads when they first appeared generated court battles resulting in case law.

You are absolutely correct. Not to open up yet another can of worms, but gay rights are a good example. They are by no means a majority, but were willing to stand up for their rights. If smokers would do the same, this wouldn't fly.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

first Off, No One Is Allowed To Freely Walk In. They Are There At My Whim. For Example, But Not Exclusive To, Proper Id To Show You Are 21 Or Over. Sometimes I Refuse Entrance Just Because You Look Like Trouble. Other Times, I May Have Kicked You Out Before, Or Your Ex Wife/girlfriend Is Already In Here.

2nd, It Absolutely Is Not My Responsibility To Protect Everyone Who Walks In The Door. If I Did Something That Were To Cause Injury, Say Electrocution By Microphone, I Would Be Responsible. Unless It Were An Act Of God Like Lightning. If, However, Someone Is Involved In An Altercation, I Am Not Responsible. Even If It Was An Innocent Bystander That Was Inadvertently Injured, It Is Still Not My Fault. Anything That Happens While A Crime Is Being Committed Is The Perpetrator's Fault, Not Mine.



Sure, I'm Aware That It Is Bad For Me. It's Smoke For Goodness Sake! You Avoid The Downwind Side Of The Campfire For The Same Reason. But If You Choose To Set There, Who Am I, Or The Government For That Matter, To Tell You Otherwise? Personally, After I Go Camping, I Sleep With The Camper Blanket For The Next Week Just Because I Like The Smell.



Why Is That A Bad Example? Are You Absolutely Sure That Every Single Person That Is Exposed To Second Hand Smoke Is Adversely Affected By Exposure To It? I Have Heard Doctors Connecting Second Hand Smoke To Everything From Stomach Aches To Hangnails. If That Is True, How Do You Explain The People Who Never Smoked, Or Were Exposed To Smoke Still Dying From Diseases? One Example I Can Give Right This Minute Is My Grandfather. He Grew Up On A Farm, Totally Isolated. My Father Tells Me He Had Something Akin To Agoraphobia. He Absolutely Refused To Leave The Farm. He Didn't Smoke, Or Have Any Other Bad Habits. He Died From Heart Disease At The Age Of 48. My Father, On The Other Hand, Drank Like A Fish And Smoked 2 Packs A Day. He Died Of Heart Disease At The Age Of 48. I'm 46.

I Am By No Means Defending The Health Risks Of Smoking Or Second Hand Smoke. I Am Only Saying That It Is Not, In My Opinion, The Government's Place To Manage My Risk. If I Chose To Drive A Race Car, I May Kill Myself And Take A Couple Of People In The Crowd With Me. How About We Make That Illegal? I Chose To Fly A Stunt Plane At An Airshow And I May Even Crash Into The Crowd. Are The Blue Angels Subject To A New Law Too? We Assume A Risk Every Time We Get Behind The Wheel On The Streets. Heck, Even Just Going Outside Is Risky Business. But Don't Stay Inside, That Air Is Worse Than A Factory Smokestack If You Have An Energy Efficient Home. There Ought To Be A Law!! Where Does It End.

Any Step Restricting My Rights On My Property Is A Step In The Wrong Direction. I Ask Again, Where Does It End. Ask The People Who Grew Up In Nazi Germany Before The Persecutions Started. They Will Tell You, It Starts With Little Steps Taken Over Time. Before You Know It, You Have No Rights Left.

What I Am Trying To Say Is, Stay Out Of My Personal Life. The Republicans Historically Want To Stay Out Of Your Pocketbook, But Mandate Social Issues. (although You Couldn't Tell It This Last Go Round) The Democrats Want You To Hand Over Your Wallet, But Leave You Alone On Personal Freedoms. I Say Both Of You Stay Out Of My Wallet And My Business.

Wow

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

On another front, I am only 1 week away from the due date of my first grandson. My wife and I are very excited. And no, I won't be smoking around him I'll leave that choice to him when he is old enough to chose whether or not he wants to be around that. I feel bad for the rest of you that won't be getting a grandson for Christmas, but don't hate me because I am

Ahhh, we have that in common, as my grandson is coming tomorrow (daughter induced).

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

I had 2 wonderful daughters

Me too.

[JNS02]

Musicman51, I stand corrected. I found out (after my post) that you are correct, VFW etc etc are not exempt from this law. I myself quit smoking when the price of cigs went over $2. a pack, but I still feel that smokers should have the right to smoke at the bars and clubs. Just my opinion. Not trying to start a big debate on this issue. But you are right, our state doesn't want to lose that big tax dollar off every pack.