Microeditor 5.5 / error 161

[rntech]

The file ****.sf has changed , if changed only by writing file flags project is unaffected.
Do you wish to delete all the segments in the project file that refer to this file.

options yes ,no or cancel.

Does anyone have any suggestions to eliminate this error.
The user is on a network and was all ok last week.
the Drive that Microstudio refers to is valid and is established via a login script.

I have even restored the files from backup from the last time it was ok.

Any Clues?

[MTUSUPPORT]

I have moved this to the Microeditor Forum, as this is where it should have been posted.

I have forgotten what this error means, as I have not used this program in over 2 years now.

I am sure there are other users in this forum that would beable to answer this for you, it should have also been in the Manual.

[geezer]

I have not used the program for at least the last 2 years myself, but I remember seeing this warning when I had moved a project file, or moved an .sf file, or had recorded more material into the file, or, I guess, changed or added flags, or opened a version of the project inadvertantly that was earlier (which might not have had, for instance, some groups combined into new sections of the default file, or new audio recorded to the default file).

In truth, the material is either there or it isn't, and the warning indicates that all might be fine, so I certainly would not let the program delete all segments from that file unless you know it is okay.....The program is not telling you that it cannot find the file, or that the file is damaged...just that it has changed. If you did not do anything to the file that actually deleted some portions of it, you should be fine. It is hard to delte portions of audio files in Medit unless you did something stupid like "compacting" the project- Is that the right term? Anyway, I'm talking about the command that deletes all portions of files that are not currently used in project segments. If you did this, you could be screwed on earlier versions.

This, I think, falls under the heading of careful file management and naming. Check your memory and make sure you know what you have done with the file in question, especially if it is the default file for the project.

[Rich LePage]

Geezer's notes seem right to me. I see that message all the time when files are moved from diff. drives, or when a project is moved to another computer from the one it was originally assembled on etc. Also see it often when I move projects to temp large external storage drives that connect via USB2 or F/wire to many systems, or restore from DVD or backup tape to drives or systems other than where the files were orig. located. We restore old projects often here to lift out chunks of them for repurposing or reworking into new versions/compilations etc. Older ones are archived on tape (DDS and also sometimes Travan carts), newer ones on data DVDs mostly.

Key thing - as Geezer noted -- is both file mgmt and of course not deleting all refs to segs from the file when it asks you. Hopefully (as he notes) the default file was not compacted or something could be missing. If what's missing is grouped material, try ungrouping it, the underlying stuff from the source files may still come back for you. (or may not....)

Another tip learned the hard way on older systems is that it is often easier to get a F/wire card into an older machine than to add USB2. Most USB cards have multiple ports and they try to steal all the IRQ's, machine hangs. Most of the lower end F/wire cards we've tried don't though, and work OK.
Most of the big external drives we run are in combo boxes that can run either USB 2 or F/wire to allow for connecting to a variety of machines. We do that with a few outboard DVD drives too that attach to the older systems when needed.

By the way, have found that the current version of Golden Hawk CDRWIN will work fine with cue files written using MicroCD (last few versions released). MicroCD always used licensed Golden Hawk DOS code underneath. The good news though is that the Golden Hawk program supports many of the newer burners that MicroCD does not. CDRWIN also supports the CD Text format, though have not done that much with that yet.

The program is not expensive and worthwhile to anyone using Medit and/or MicroCD. You can write your cue file (with the associated ACD, BAT and DOC files) plus your WAV image file with MicroCD, then just edit the cue file if you have moved things so the first line in it points to the WAV image file's location (any text editor like Notepad is fine) and burn using CDRWIN. Only the cue and WAV files wind up being actually used this way, though to burn with Micro CD you'd still need the other files it wrote (which are small).


Golden Hawk initially did not know if this idea would work, so we took the plunge of buying it and seems to work fine. I don't know if it works with the karaoke format, but Golden Hawk has some info about that on their web site.

[geezer]

That is good info to use if I ever try to resurrect an old CD project from the days of Microeditor....Both my MTU computers have been on a shelf in storage for a couple of years now, though.

I have more or less moved on completely to Wavelab for CD mastering, which contains CD text and all the features in MicroCD, plus the ability to use plugins and dithering.....Since Microeditor/MicroCD uses no dithering, this was initially very confusing to me until I did a huge amount of experimentation and came up with a dithering scheme that always works and always sounds better than converting 24bit files from Microeditor to MicroCD-generated CDs....It should be noted that none of the 20 or so combinations of dither I tried worked this way except the one I ended up choosing. Everything else reduced the stereo stage and "size" and depth of the recording in a way that was inferior to the MicroEditor bit-reduction math. The method I discovered keeps the size and frequency responcy better than Microeditor....The whole experimentation process was bizarre in the extreme, but ultimately fruitful.

[Rich LePage]

Also good info and thx for the update. Lately what I've been using when I want to use dither is to apply it to the final files using Waves plugs or using the native dither options inside Adobe Audition. Then I take the processed files back into M/edit and make the image file etc using that, then burn with CDRWIN, or MicroCD if the recorder on the burn machine is supported in it.

More often than not, I don't use dither, but sometimes do find it helpful for
projects that have a lot of fades at the ends of sections,etc. Like you, I found one basic dither combo that seems to work OK when I need it. With some stuff, dither def. seems to help.

Many of the long programs we do use a lot of CD tracks, usually 70 to 90 per CD, so the ability to add them (and move if necessary easily) by just putting in the flags is still a big plus there.

Ironically, though we use the newer burners for high speed refs, I still seem to get the best results for masters by doing them at 2x or 4x on the old Yamahas-- including the very first one (2x) bought from MTU a real long time ago-- which uses a caddy, rare these days. Also ironically, Win XP seems to have a very hard time working OK with those real old SCSI drives, so quite often I do final burns on an old, barebones Win98 system. Less seems to be more -- no surprise there. Those old burners don't support things like CD Text though -- and with the real old 2x Yamaha, that doesn't support 80 minute media either--goes nuts if you try it.

All that moving stuff around is what led me to look into the CDRWIN thing.

We have one of those expensive Clover QC systems and based on analysis using that, approach above still seems to produce least errors. A few of the newer drives, notably some Sony OEM units (which are actually Lite On, surprisingly) seem to dependably give few errors at higher speeds, but many others don't, though the error rates are fine for use as refs done high speed.

But, it's case by case. I have two identical model Sony OEM drives and one is very dependable while the other one isn't-- when swapped into same system.
Both run fine, but time and again, one produces higher error rates on discs than the other one. And that's at just about ANY speed, too. Many newer drives actually can do worse at very slow speeds than mid-range ones like about 8x. Each seems to have its own favorite sweet spot in the limited try and see testing I've done.

Also the Mitsui (now MAM-A) QC is just not what it used to be, I seem too often to have to reject burned masters for too many errors. Not willing to send them to a plant unless I can verify in 2 sep test passes that the error rates are very low. With the old burners especially, I run the gold media, seems to give best results and still have only ever had one master rejected by a plant for too many errors -- long ago, before we got the QC system.

Tried the Wavelab demo and liked it, might go with that in a few months. Adobe has a major new version of Audition, supposedly way different than the old Cool Edit Pro, so at some point will probably try both that and Wavelab and see which works better for typical needs here.

[geezer]

Like you, I am using only the MAM-A gold for all masters and anything else I want to have listened to by critical ears. I have purchased and used the MAM-A silver for some other uses and tests.

One curious, but powerful, set of facts came to light after I did all the dither testing. I spent some time testing various types of media stock burning at various speeds in my Yamaha IDE burner from approx. 2000....The number of variables during this test were huge, and, I'm sure would show different results with a different burner, program or computer.

I started these tests after receiving some table-top duplicated discs from masters I had heard before, and found them to sound quite different than the masters.....I would stress that, although I did do some file-matching tests, all of my media and speed tests were LISTENING tests done in real time on my reference player monitoring via the digial output into my reference monitoring setup. I was testing the way things sound on playback, with the ultimate concern being client auditions and duplication quality as I was considering buying a duplicator.

I don't think errors, in the normal sense, were ever the issue, and here is why: Before I performed the extensive tests using mixes that I know intimately, I took these bad-sounding table-top duplicated CDRs (collapsed image, loss of depth, shift of apparent frequency response), copied them into my Wavelab computer and simply burned them again at the standard speed I use (4X)(no additional dithering) onto the MAM-A gold discs, and all the imagery and depth were restored! (in real-time playback, that is). I would also stress that all of these real-time playback tests provided readily audible results even in my awful sounding car system and my $100 Teac "real world" bookshelf system. Absolute repeatability of the effect on all systems.

What I found ultimately through a very lengthy test process was this: 1)Every piece of media sounded different (real-time playback) at every different burn speed. 2)Only the MAM-A gold was capable of the real-time quality on playback that I am looking for, though the silver came moderately close. 3)With my burner, only the one speed (4x) produced the desired result. Both slower and faster speeds were different, and, in my oprion, degraded.

I had a long talk with MAM-A's main engineer-tech guy about this at a duplication seminar I attended, and he said he had heard of this issue from some mastering engineers, but had never seen any scientific analysis of it. I was going to send him some examples, but had a serious health issue invade my life a couple of weeks later and have not gotten back to it.....He said that his company's tests showed that their discs tended to produce the best results when run at speeds in the middle of their range (i.e.- a 56x disc would do the best around 28x), but the burners themselves responded differently to different media and speeds.

So, I guess this means that when I upgrade my burner I will have to go through this process all over again....I am sure that I will have to revisit all the dithering (I also use Waves, by the way) as well if I ever change anything else- including software.....I just changed cards in my computer, which has changed my perspective yet again, though I think the change was positive and easy to hear, so I have not gone through any further tests around this so far.

[Rich LePage]

Your experience in real world listening seems to run parallel to mine and also to what I have been seeing with the Clover QC unit. Yep, diff. media and diff speeds, burners and so on do sound different to me too.

But the gold seems to be about the "roundest wheel". The MAM-A silver, well the quality (listening and Clover testing) has been all over the map from lot to lot. Sometimes very good, but sometimes, really bad. Many of the same problems you mentioned, partic. collapse of the stereo image. The Taiyo Yuden media (80s only) has been more stable lately (testing both very subjectively and with the Clover too) so have been using that for both CDROM work and often for client refs too. So far, no one has kicked back a ref as not playable though it's an 80 min blank, so I guess most clients are using newer players. My car system (late 90s Jeep) will eject any 80 minute CD put into it, though it plays 74's fine.

I've had REALLY bad luck with the MAM 80 blanks though -- both silver and very surprisingly, the gold ones too. Not only do they subjectively not sound as good (same program, same burner) as the 74's but the Clover thing generally shows them to have many more errors. In fairness I think all I ever bought of the 80s was from one batch though. I usually buy from Media Supply in PA, a big MAM-A distributor.

The Clover unit is fairly cool for what it is - consists of a graded and modified Plextor drive (SCSI) which allows it to measure a big variety of error rates, and will even let you look at the pit geometry if you hook up a scope to it.
It requires a COMM port to run besides the SCSI card (they include an Adaptec controller), but will run on just about anything. I have it set up on an old DEC Pentium 200, one of a very few packaged computers I've ever owned bought as a closeout when Compaq bought DEC.

Clover's info claims that some of the errors it is measuring are likely causes of some of the same things you and I are hearing/seeing-- it measures much more in terms of errors than just BLER.

But like anything else, it is not totally empirical either-- since there are the variables of the computer host, also many others. You check to see that the thing is still calibrated fine and that all is well using 2 test discs they supply with it -- 1 known good (they give you the analysis of the disc when the unit was shipped) and one with def. known errors (they give you that analysis too). So far, our system seems very repeatable to the standards from when it was shipped (about 1.5 years ago). But seems the more bare bones the host machine, the better. I have it on a very simple Win98 system that is about as vanilla as you could have, no Internet etc either. I just use that computer for QC'ing, really nothing else except printing out the documentation.

That's also why I check masters twice with it-- the results always will differ, but only very slightly with a good master, and the results will be fairly close to the "standard" cal. disc when all is well. I print the results and ship with the masters too.

www.cloversystems.com if you are interested at all, but it isn't cheap, though about the cheapest thing beyond toy class that I could find when I was looking around. The owner apparently did some work way back for Dave and MTU in its very early days, though last time I spoke with Dave he didn't remember the guy -- that was some time ago however. They make a few different types of units, the one we have is called CDX.

Seen the same thing with DVDs used for data backups. No surprise that cheapo media is not reliable -- but the one brand that seems to work well time and again for those has been Verbatim. We have many DVD drives, from 4x to 16x, mostly use them for data backup which is always fully verified after writing (as a separate verify pass, using Backup Exec). The Verbatims seem to be very reliable, most others, not. Will have to see how they hold up over time as storage media-- but I did restore a project done a few years ago recently that was backed up to DVD and it worked out fine. With really critical stuff that is very likely to be reworked years later, I back up to both DVDs and DDS data Dats which is what I used before the DVDs, and usually run 2 sets of DVDs too just in case. I get paranoid that way!

[geezer]

....Yeah, I've been looking at the Clover unit too because I've been trying to figure out how to generate more straight-up mastering work (I've alway been very multi-operational, with a lot of live recording and start-to-finish production). Can't justify it yet, but it's on the list.

I buy from Media Supply too. They're the ones that sponsored the duplication seminar I went to. I started up with them because they are practically the only place that carries the MAM-A golds.

One thing that the MAM-A guy at the seminar was claiming was that some standard DVD-Rs have a shelf life of a year or less in their environmental testing. He was, of course, touting their new Silver and Gold DVD-Rs. Have you tried these yet?

Sounds like you feel pretty confident about the Verbatims. A lot of folks seem to like Taiyo Yuden. The Taiyo Yuden guy at the seminar said categorically that all of their DVD output, no matter what retail outlet it wound up at, came off the same production line with the same quality control. That was heartening. The quality control issues at MAM-A you are seeing are not.....I'll try to dig out the engineering guy at MAM-As contact info and give it to you.

The MAM-A guy was pretty accessible, and gave a great talk on the technical aspects of things, including all the pit geometry stuff. This mostly, but not entirely, supported the superiority of their patented dyes.....generally pretty interesting.

[Rich LePage]

Me as well for the live work and also start to finish production - a lot of what I do has always been that way. I'm usually selling a client a total solution for a project, start to finish. Mastering-only is more of a sideline, though one I hope to increase some, since another sideline has always been restoration work.

Since in NYC I often use studios of folks who compete with me, differentiating along quality and other avenues becomes impt to justify why I should get the gig rather than others.
I do generate some stuff out in the burbs, too- but a lot of it is still city-based to get the talent etc clients want. It's 35 miles -- but with traffic gotta allow like 2 hours when going there.

What led to the Clover for me was (besides wanting to be able to know more
what was going on) that many clients had been seeing problems with stuff done by competitors, and so though it wasn't the case with stuff I did, I figured it was high time to be able to understand more why and also to be able to provide documentation of what was going on with masters when they left here. I've also got work because others produced CDs that plants rejected - sometimes several times. Also more routine things like whoever did the work had no concept of average and peak level in some cases!

The Clover guy told me he also has seen same variation situation with the MAM-A's in more recent times- says he's been using the Taiyos more with the duplicators they also build. Guess he offers short run duping services too.

I'm only "sold" on the Taiyos for the moment. I have a bunch on hand, along with a bunch of MAM-A silvers from diff batches. I try to pull about 25 pcs from each batch and hold them awhile just to have a benchmark, though I do that less with the golds since they've been good except for the 80s.
The older MAM-As are often more consistent from disc to disc than current
production, though that's a somewhat subjective call. Anything that still says Mitsui on it has been very consistent for most part.

Send the MAM-A guy's info whenever convenient and I'll inquire.

I've seen less variation in the packaged MAM-As than the bulk ones. For convenience, I buy some silvers in jewel cases in cartons of 25, and use those for cassette masters which get burned at higher speeds than CD masters, though usually just at 4 or 8x tops.

Have not tried the MAM-A DVD-R's in quite a while so will get M/Supply to send me a few next order. The Verbatims though have been great. Not so with cheapos like Optodisc and Ritek - as you'd expect.

Sure hope your health matter worked out OK.