rate of pay around the country.

[SteveWalker]

Congratulations Chris! Glad to see another increase in defense spending.

I have been doing karaoke in Oklahoma for about 10 years. I primarily work bars with a few private parties. I don't care for private parties as much so I don't work at booking them.

I have one show in a liquor bar that I have done 3 nites a week for over 5 years. They pay me more than the small beer bars that I do. (One of those I have been doing twice a month for 10 years) In Oklahoma a small beer bar that can seat 30 people simply can't make enough money to pay what a liquor bar that seats 200 can.

I enjoy doing both places and sometimes its nice to have just 10 singers instead of the 40 or 50.

I agree with most of the posts that talk about "Getting What You Pay For".

I have 4 complete systems, 1 permanent and 3 portable with 15,000 selections in them.

The key to keeping good shows is having the music that your singers want to sing.

[Digital Party]

Ha Ha Ha.....Defense spending.......LOL....LOL.....

[Digital Party]

Could not resist the 100th post. What does the red ball mean next to my name?

[dschwark]

A self employed person has to make at least $50 an hour don't they; otherwise it's not worth the time, gas, and money. If your legit, you have pay your own taxes, and you still need to get medical insurance someplace. Hopefully you have a spouse with a good job.

KJ'ing would be a dream I'd like to pursue. I've been doing it for a couple of years for family and freinds and at parties. I've spent about $4000 on equipment and CD's. and I'd like to start getting a return on that investment. It's a hobby for sure, but It's not cheap, and it is a job. People who do this deserve a decent buck.

[Digital Party]

Well said dschwark.......my karaoke hobbie grew into a job, back into a hobbie and now......trying to grow it back into a job. Lots of work and sore backs.

Let me start off by saying that the 75.00 karaoke "cheepies" don't last long in a club mainly cause of their selection and inablity to motavate people. They are basically their because the owner has agreed to let them drink themselves silly. Now with that said let me say this any one who has been in this business for any length of time remembers when laserdisc came out and when karaoke was just becoming popular in the United States. You could basically book a club at 300-400.00 a night and be sucessful with it. Now the market has become so saturated with wanna be kj's that that price has become hard to impossible to get. I once wrote an article titled "What Are You Worth?". In there it explains how to sell yourself and your experience.

You as the emcee are 1. the band 2. the dj 3. the host for the entire evening 4 the person who can motivate people to do things they would not normally do at a club like sing in front of an audience. The job of a kj is to break in at least 3 new "virgin" karaoke singers a night at each of your clubs that you do.

What i am about to say may offend a few but it needs to be said. The karaoke show that you do is not about you. If you sing more than one song a night then you have an ego problem. Your job as stated before is to motivate people to get up and sing and have FUN doing it. I have been in this business since 1989 and have come up thru the ranks from learning from others. I started out as a roadie for 3 years learning how to motivate people from someone who was and still is as far as I am concerned "The Best" at what he does.

You need to be able to convince the the owner of a club that 1. you are about to enter into a "marriage" with the owner to increase his profits. 2. You have a following that will be there. not all at the same time every week.
but you can provide the club with your expertise. Your sound gear you MUST know inside and out how to set up a quality sound system that will have your singers saying "God was that me?" not just call up a person insert a disc then go talk to some hot girl in the audience. Which by the way i have seen Way too much of in night clubs around the country.

YOU NEED TO BE ALBE TO DIAL A SINGER IN EVERYTIME THEY GET UP! now you going to ask what does he mean dial a singer up? 1. set the efx for that singer. 2.set the balance between high's mids and lows so that singer sounds as best as possible even if they are tone def.

Ok what if i have no singers you may ask. then here is what you do 1. Play some dj music then go into the audience and introduce yourself strike up a conversation and gain the confidence of people that don't know you. watch what will happen before you know it you have singers.

Now with that all said and done "What Are You Worth"

[alanross]

Originally Posted by StudioPro

...If you sing more than one song a night then you have an ego problem. Your job as stated before is to motivate people to get up and sing and have FUN doing it.

...Ok what if i have no singers you may ask. then here is what you do 1. Play some dj music then go into the audience and introduce yourself strike up a conversation and gain the confidence of people that don't know you.

Great advice for most areas, but there are exceptions to every rule and I get a little irked when anyone talks in absolutes...

It's not an ego problem for the host to have the same opportunity to sing as those for whom he is working. By all means a host should not sing more than once in a rotation, but they should sing at the top of each rotation. There is no reason why the host, who is doing all the work, should be given less of a chance to sing than the patron in the bar. Being fair, why should the host be required to sacrifice when they are doing all the work? That's not an ego problem, that's basic fairness. Why should he/she have to become a martyr?

After working in the DJ/KJ business for over 26 years (1979 - Present) I've learned a lot about audiences and while there are similarities in all audiences, every situation is unique. Not all rules work for all places. For example, in a tourism dominant market, such as the beach resort area in which we perform, audiences are more interested in being entertained than being the entertainers. Simply playing DJ music is boring, the audience can go anywhere and see that. When you have no singers, your audiences will respond much quicker to the void if the host continues to sing until someone stops them by turning in a request. I don't care how good a vocalist you are - if you are the host and you sing a couple of songs, back to back, to fill a "no singer's" void, someone's gonna turn in a request. There are two main reasons someone will turn in a request if the host keeps singing, 1) To stop the host from singing another song or 2) To take advantage of the lull in singers and get more songs in for themselves.

If you are running your shows right, there should be very few nights that a host should have to sing more than once each rotation. Your shows will be packed and there will be a waiting list before you even start the show. One of our shows has been in the same nightclub for over ten years - seven nights a week - and we still have people turning in request slips before the show starts. During the summer, we have more people than you can imagine here on the beach and of course the shows are packed. But during the off-season, when the beach becomes a ghost town, our shows still draw in all the locals.

Even during the off-season, it's extremely rare our hosts have to sing more than once at the beginning of the night to get things started, then it's off to the races. During any given year, there are maybe 6 nights out of 364 when the host would have to sing more than one song to fill a void.

The overall entertainment value of the show is directly dependent upon the personality of the host, selection of music, quality of the sound and quality of the vocalists that come to your shows. The host is most important because they can either excite, motivate or alienate a crowd. The trick is finding the balance for your area and your audiences.

If the formula for successsful shows was based on very black and white principles that could be repeated consistently, then everyone would have a great show all the time. The problem with absolutes is that we live in a world full of colors and black and white absolutes will always fail.

I'd be willing to bet that more than anything else, the host StudioPro felt was "the best" was extremely talented at reading his audience and knowing how to play to them. For DJs, the subtle difference between playing "Brown Eyed Girl" after "Turn The Page" and playing it before is lost on inexperienced DJs. Hosts who have mastered these subtleties are much more in demand because although the audiences may not be able to explain why, they just know which hosts have "the touch" and which don't. Being able to read your crowd makes all the difference and you can't write that down as an absolute.

[MimiLee]

Well said Alan. I too work in a beach area and have songs lined up before the show begins. What a problem, eh?

One area where we differ in our show is that I do not sing each rotation. I start the show and end with Happy Trails with singers waiting to get a mike to help me end the show.

Our regulars know if there is something they want to hear me sing they will put in a request slip and I'll place that in rotation.

[wackyquack]

Very well put Alan. I haven't been in business nearly as long as you but I couldn't agree more. I sing at the top of every rotation unless the rotation is ten or more singers. Then I only do requests (solo or duets). My shows average 20-25 singers each show. Always starts a little slow but by 10:30 pm things are hoppin'

You are absoultely correct, every audience and show is different and there are no absoultes.

[Monolith]

I am just starting in this area (South Jersey) and I miss the clientel I had when I was in South Carolina.

I base all of my decisions for rotation on who has been waiting the longest. I do not condone impatient patrons even so far as to remove their name from the song list or even ban them from my shows. Every name goes at the end of the rotation and does not get moved up.....because the name at the top has always been waiting the longest. I used to do the 2 old, 1 or 2 new thing but it was just too big a headache when you got flooded with people.

Having the singing order in front of the crowd makes life substantially easier (probably my favorite feature in Hoster 3.10). When somone asks when they get to sing I just point to the screen.

New singers don't really concern me too much. I let them know that the wait is pretty long and recommend that they get themselves some food or drink and arrive sooner the next time so they can get more songs in.

I have the ability to get more per night than I do but without a name and reputation to back that up it can be rather difficult or even impossible to get more than $175 for a 4 hour show, even on a Friday or Saturday. This is not a serious concern for me at the moment because I have another job which covers my bills and I know that I can slowly raise my prices. Don't be afraid to start off at a lower price than you think you are worth. Just set your amount based on what the bar's current estimated income is. If you do a quality show then the people will come and there will be more money for everyone. Also, book as many nights as you can manage. Even at a lower price you will still make money and you will build a clientel that will come to more of your other shows and build them up.

One thing I have learned over the years is how to scout a show. If there is a place you are interested in working, go there and just have a drink (don't get hammered there) or something to eat. Strike up a conversation with the staff so they know you are a person not just some guy off the streets with a 50 song library and a Radio Shack microphone trying to make a quick buck. Find out if they already have a Karaoke night and, if so, when it is. Try to show up again on that night and do some research on the person running the show. If you both do about the same things have a conversation with that person and be sure to give them a business card or two. Networking will go a long way. If they don't have a karaoke night finish your drink or food and leave. Come back again in about a week or so. You may have to do this a few times before you get a chance to actually pop the question. If you have presented yourself well over the last few visits then you will have a much better time trying to book and negotiate prices for your show.

I make it a point to never try to overtake someone else's shows unless they give me reason to. I also recommend that you make a note of anyone who does this to you and put them on your "people to bankrupt" list. No one likes being undercut.

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but I figured the scouting stuff might be useful to someone. I hope this can all be of use to someone.

Happy Thanksgiving to all and to all a deep turkey induced coma!!

Jon
Monolith Entertainment

[alanross]

Monolith, I am usually loath to contradict any posts on these forums, but I must take a moment to dissuade anyone who may have been influenced by your post to follow your lead. I have no personal bias towards you and mean you no offense, however, I strongly disagree with your methods.

First - Not taking the time to integrate new vocalists into your rotation will alienate people. No matter what else you think, please remember that your business relies on people wanting to come to your shows. The biggest draw that I've found, and I've been a DJ/KJ for over 26 years, is fair and respectful treatment of your audience. Karaoke audiences are growing more sophisticated and are less tolerant than in years past. Understanding that other shows competing with you may pull your crowds away by presenting a more positive response to people and a less "monolithic" style will increase your draw. Increasing your draw means increasing the revenue for the establishments in which you play. Increasing their revenue puts you in a very good position to negotiate a higher rate of pay. It's the way the cycle works.

For anyone who wishes to follow Monolith's example, good luck, bon chance, I wish you the best. And I sincerely mean that. I wish every one good shows, because if everyone is doing better shows, the overall image of Karaoke will improve and all of us can demand bettter pay rates.

However, I know those of you who wish to treat your vocalists fairly, provide a good venue for them and maintain a generally positive attitude, will have great success.

- Alan

[nreel]

Not disagreeing or agreeing...just what I do.

First, when I used to use Request Slips, I remember what it was like trying to shuffle/move them in order to INSERT New Singers. What a Royal Pain, especially, when you run out of room on your Table where the Request Slips are laid out.

To me, this was the only rational for a KJ to NOT work in New Singers and simply put the New Singers at the END.

But, taking the EASY way is not always the Best Way.

New Singers are buying customers and shouldn't have to wait an exceptionally long time to get a turn to Sing.

Any Karaoke Show that I've seen where Singers are not worked-in have small turn outs and do not grow. It's the same KJ "PET" Singers that show up on a weekly basis.

Current Singers DO NOT mind waiting if they are having a GOOD time and the Venue is aesthetically pleasing and easy to move about. But, the MAIN thing is that they are having a GOOD Time.

That is your JOB, and I say JOB, to make sure they are having a GOOD Time. All too often KJs treat Karaoke like a Part-Time job. The SHOW Suffers, and, Karaoke, as a whole, Suffers.

As the KJ, you may ask what you can do to inject FUN into your Show. Well, NEW Singers are the PERFECT source to do just that.

Say you have several BALLAD songs cued for the upcoming CURRENT Singers. Looking at the List of submitted Songs from NEW Singers gives you the opportunity to INSERT UPBEAT Songs, thereby, changing the mood of the Audience. Many times, this will cause CURRENT Singers to CHANGE their Songs to more UPBEAT Songs...something about Competition and wanting to OUTSHINE the NEW Arrivals...whatever it takes.

The list goes on and on with respect to how NEW Arrivals can help a KJ in achieving a memorable SHOW where Patrons are commenting to the KJ, on the way out after the Show, that they had the BEST time and that they will be back.

I have, no less than, 40 Singers every Friday night. At 4 minutes/Song, the CURRENT SINGERS...Singers who were at the Venue when the Karaoke Started (9:00pm)...will wait until, almost, 12 Midnight for me to START the 2nd Rotation. And, why are they waiting? Because I'm working in NEW Singers as the night goes on. And, why are they NOT Leaving? Because I'm using the NEW Singers to INJECT life into Mix, which causes everyone to have a GOOD Time.

[alanross]

For me, I don't let the first rotation go longer than an hour and a half - two hours, tops. After about an hour and a half, you start losing the people who've already sung their first song and don't feel like waiting three hours to sing another four-minute song.

Especially if you live in an area where there is a lot of Karaoke competition - you gotta remember that people are sitting there thinking, "Do I really want to wait three hours to sing a four minute song? Three hours for four mintues? I can run down the street and get into that rotation."

It's very easy to make it a mathematical formula that people can understand. You can average-out songs at about 4:00 minutes each. That means that it will take about an hour and 45 minutes to play 25 songs. You make it policy that the first 25 songs will be played in the first rotation, if they get their slips in before 9:15. Any singers coming in after 9:15 will be slipped into the next rotation as a "new vocalist" and the "new vocalists" are inserted every other song.

With Hoster this is real easy to manage and the crowds respond extremely well. They see you are not playing favorites, they understand that it's up to them to get their slips in early, and if they do come in late, they can usually still sing their first song relatively quickly. New vocalists don't normally have to wait any longer to sing their first song than the 25th person in the first rotation had to wait to sing theirs. In fact it doesn't usually take that long.

By adhering to this rotation and being consistent, our crowds stay larger longer because people know that we're going to make sure we give everybody a fair chance to sing again. We don't simply keep taking new vocalists at the expense of the people who've been there from the start, but we're also not going to ignore the new vocalists. Two hours is maximum for a rotation. After that, you lose a lot of people. Unless you work in an area where the audience is constantly rotating in and out of the place all night, you can't hold a crowd with a show that 's not fair to everyone.

I've made it a point to travel the country and research Karaoke shows. I visited a Karaoke place on Bourbon Street in New Orleans (pre-Katrina) and was surprised to see how the audiences flowed in and out of the place all night. The method this place used was to have no more than 200 songs - all well know, upbeat stuff that anyone could sing and the audience could sing along with - and people would sing the same songs over and over all night long. The trick is - the audience was never the same from hour to hour. On Bourbon Street, people move up and down the street, popping into one club after another to see what's going on. The never stay in any one place too long. So these shows capitalize on how their audiences are constantly changing and they don't really have to worry about rotation and song selection, they just let the new group of people that flows in every half hour or so sing the same stuff as the previous group that just flowed out.

That worked well for New Orleans, but it won't work in a small town where there is only one place that does Karaoke. I have never seen a really busy Karaoke place in any small town I've visited. Perhaps it's because there's simply not enough people in the town, but usually it's because the Karaoke just isn't that good and there's no good alternative. Good vocalists would rather not sing at all then sing at a bad Karaoke show.

I work in an area where you have got to try to keep people in your place all night and we're contracted to do it 7 nights a week in this one club. That means we've got to try to encourage and maintain enough people to fill this club everynight, but not leave unhappy. It's a fine line and the tightrope can be walked, but it can only be done by clear, fair guidelines that allows the maximum number of songs to be sung by each person.

- Alan

[G-Force]

I know the place bourbon street you are talking about. Its called the Cats Meow. Personally, that type of a show would never work in a "normal" environment. Yes they do a great job there. But it takes 3 people to run a show. The host who sings every other song, a girl to run the rotation and the dj behind the booth. Happy hour is the best there as drinks are 2 for one and you can get loaded really quick for little $$. Yes they run a fair rotation, but that show is all about the Host not the singers. The sad thing is thats the best karaoke on Bourbon street. And yes I was there only 2 weeks prior to Katrina so this was not too long ago.

[Monolith]

AlanRoss

No offense taken, I have been in the business quite a while myself and this is what works for me. This is a free and open forum to exchange ideas and methods. And I agree with many of the things that you as well as others have posted as much as I disagree with some of things that others have posted.

The way I do things just answers several questions and alleviates a lot of the headaches that I used to have.

I used to vary my rotations and insert new singers where applicable but it never failed to have someone pestering or getting mad at me. I got tired of it.

I appreciate your input, please don't think that I don't. That is why this forum is here. I am not an inflexible person and if the rotation needs to change to better the business then I am more than willing to change it. For now, everyone understands and as long as they know that it might be a while they (for the vast majority) don't complain.

I don't expect others to follow my lead. I just wanted to put my methods out there in case someone could find a way to copy or modify them to better us all.

I believe the person who figures out the perfect rotation will be a millionaire in a month.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts and best wishes to you and yours.

**EDIT By the way I just noticed that you are in NC, I take my only real vacations north of Myrtle Beach and I used to work in Charleston SC. I am going to have to remember to check your show out sometime when I am back down that way. Understand I harbor no ill-will and have never held a grudge against anyone (excluding my ex-wife). Just interested in meeting some of the major players in the business. EDIT**

Jon
Monolith Entertainment

[alanross]

Jon,
I appreciate your post and you're welcome to visit our shows anytime. I, too, love meeting other professionals in our field. Feel free to check out our web site at www.alanrosskaraoke.com

I'm a person who appreciates positive feedback and constructive criticism, so I tend to give it, sometimes unwanted. I appreciate people who can accept it in the spirit it's given. I'm always trying to make things better.

I would good on, but this thread is really about rate of pay - for which, I should mention, now that we're getting into the Christmas party season, for private parties, pricing is very important.

This area, as most around the country, has a more than sufficient number of DJ systems available. Most are really, Really, REALLY average. Yet the competition is what sets the price range so, for DJs in this area, most get $100/hr. The DJs I have in our Corporation also make $100/hr. As the owner, and face of the corporation, I get $200.00/hr. (I'm like the Gerber baby of Karaoke in this area - If it's not Alan Ross, it's not the best... {marketing is everything}) This is usually enough incentive to send semi-interested people in the direction of one of my staff, but serious businesses and overly eager wedding couples will often shell out the extra to have me personally at their show - I think they're nuts, but God love 'em.

For anyone who is doing Karaoke as a hobby and not to support themselves, really hold out for the better money. Set your price higher than anyone else in the area and tell people that they get what they pay for and they should pay you more to get the best. You'll definitely get fewer bookings - so really don't do this unless you can afford to, but if you really do have a good product, word spreads and people will eventually pay the big money to get it.

Because we've been in this area for over 10 years - most everyone knows my name and has seen my work and will pay the premium to have me there personally. But it takes a long time to build up a reputation and it's equally difficult to keep that reputation and remain on top. But once word of mouth spreads that you're worth the money, every gig you do will be worth the effort, instead of feeling underappreciated for the amount of work you're doing.

- Alan

PS- It is indeed the Cat's Meow in New Orleans, G-Force, and I was intrigued by their advertising of the "Best Karaoke Bar in the World", so one of my show hosts and I booked a flight and headed down to check it out. It is really fun for Bourbon Street, but like you said, it wouldn't work in most other venues. We have over 11,000 songs (without duplicates) and people still come up and ask, "Do you have such and such by so and so?" I can't imagine trying to run a Karaoke show on the few hundred songs the Cat's Meow has.

[G-Force]

"We have over 11,000 songs (without duplicates) and people still come up and ask, "Do you have such and such by so and so?" I can't imagine trying to run a Karaoke show on the few hundred songs the Cat's Meow has."

Yeah I know what you mean...I am pushing around 23,000 songs now and I still get that same question. I have been getting people asking me for Michael Buble quite often lately. I finally broke down and picked up a couple discs to appease them even though the man does not have an original tune to his name. What I should have done is said "Sure I got Buble" and then put up the Sinatra version. They never would have known the difference.

[alanross]

Too true.

[MimiLee]

What's happening with this post? The date changes but the message doesn't.