Downloadable Karaoke Songs

[billyo]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

Karaoke Warehouse is a US Company based in Ohio that has been selling CDGs for many years. I see now that they are offering mp3+g downloads ............ so I am wondering if this is now legal in the U.S. (or at least they must think it is, even though it does take you to a different site.) I just purchased one & it plays just fine in Hoster.

P.S. I think I just answered my own question - I just read their Disclaimer: you "MAY NOT use the materials for any commercial purpose, or for any public display (commercial or non-commercial)".

i bet they didnt have that disclaimer posted before you downloaded the songs...

[Skybird74]

Originally Posted by billyo

i bet they didnt have that disclaimer posted before you downloaded the songs...

Probably because the link does take you to a different site.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

Probably because the link does take you to a different site.

i looked at that site, and trying to find if there was any disclaimer prinnted somewhere and i didnt find anything.

[RandyMcCharles]

And this is where it gets very confusing. After reading several vague FAQs and answers to emails, what it looks like:
1. The manufacturer/download company only purchases personal use rights. (Possibly the public use rights are including in the mechanical rights, which I think is tied to the pressing of the CDG)
2. However, bars pay for the rights to play music in their establishment, which is why they can play a radio or music station). These rights also include the playing karaoke music.
3. The point of contention is in displaying the karaoke lyrics, which is not included in the entertainment fees the bar is paying. Therefore it should be just fine to take your download and sing to it provided only you, the private purchaser, see the lyrics. And there seems to be no mechanism for you as a download purchaser to pay for the right to show the lyrics in public.

Therefore, it appears to be technically illegal for a KJ to purchase a karaoke download and use it in commercial or non-commercial public shows. It can, however, be used in private, non-commercial settings.

That said, everything I have seen has been vague and unclear. Even the manufacturers and download companies don't seem to have a clear understanding. Most of them don't seem to have a license statement or a FAQ. Those that did were unclear. I emailed for clarification and either got further muddiness for no answer.

If anyone can shed more light on the the question of legally using a download in place of a manufactured CDG, please enlighten us.

[RandyMcCharles]

I clicked on a link from Karaoke Warehouse and went to ibackTracks. Under terms of use it said: "The tracks distributed by iBackTracks recordings are for personal use and live performance. However, elsewhere it said that downloaded tracks do not include lyrics. If you purchase a custom disk however, you will receive lyrics if they are available. I could not find a notice that said their tracks were not for public use. (I am sure it is there, I just couldn't find it

[billyo]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I clicked on a link from Karaoke Warehouse and went to ibackTracks. Under terms of use it said: "The tracks distributed by iBackTracks recordings are for personal use and live performance. However, elsewhere it said that downloaded tracks do not include lyrics. If you purchase a custom disk however, you will receive lyrics if they are available. I could not find a notice that said their tracks were not for public use. (I am sure it is there, I just couldn't find it

if i not mistaken they were talking about a regular mp3 karaoke disc, not an mp3+g

[RandyMcCharles]

That makes sense. Still confusing to me what applies to what when their Terms Of Use are off by themselves and they sell multiple products.

[billyo]

those mp3 karaoke disc only come with the vocal guides, but no graphics, it's a step back, like using the old cassette tapes, one side with vocals, one side with tracks, at least those cassetes came with lyric sheets

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by [U

Disclaimer[/u]: you "MAY NOT use the materials for any commercial purpose, or for any public display (commercial or non-commercial)".

You just answered my question too! After all these post, here it is what I was asking for.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

Karaoke Warehouse is a US Company based in Ohio that has been selling CDGs for many years. I see now that they are offering mp3+g downloads ............ so I am wondering if this is now legal in the U.S. (or at least they must think it is, even though it does take you to a different site.) I just purchased one & it plays just fine in Hoster.

P.S. I think I just answered my own question - I just read their Disclaimer: you "MAY NOT use the materials for any commercial purpose, or for any public display (commercial or non-commercial)".

The catch here is they do not include the lyrics in their downloads so actually these are not MP3+G as Karaoke Warehouse would lead you to believe. Even if you order them on CD they will not have the display the lyrics, thus they are CDA files and not CDG. If they have the lyrics available they will send them on a sheet af paper included.
So because they do not include the lyrics then they do not have to pay all the same royalties as normal and lawsuits because of the confusion in the industry. Even IBack is not the producers of these so you have no idea where they were produced. Doesn't sound to good to me.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by billyo

i looked at that site, and trying to find if there was any disclaimer prinnted somewhere and i didnt find anything, i also found that Karaoke Warehouse also sells Hoster/Hoster Lite sofware and ruggerdized laptops..

All they are doing is acting as an agent for MTU and redirecting the order to MTU. Their page for Hoster isn't even up to date. They still list 4.10. For the computer you are paying extra for a middleman. KW lists it for $2299.99 and MTU's price is $1899.99.

[Skybird74]

[quote=billyo;100984]i looked at that site, and trying to find if there was any disclaimer prinnted somewhere and i didnt find anything, i also found that Karaoke Warehouse also sells Hoster/Hoster Lite sofware and ruggerdized laptops..[/quote

In the top middle of the page are 4 boxes - the left one says "vocal tracks" and the right one says: "karaoke video downloads". It says right in the box that it takes you to "singanytime.com". At that page, look at the right column under "Information" and read "Conditions of Use". And, YES these are MP3+G.

[Skybird74]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

The catch here is they do not include the lyrics in their downloads so actually these are not MP3+G as Karaoke Warehouse would lead you to believe. Even if you order them on CD they will not have the display the lyrics, thus they are CDA files and not CDG. If they have the lyrics available they will send them on a sheet af paper included.
So because they do not include the lyrics then they do not have to pay all the same royalties as normal and lawsuits because of the confusion in the industry. Even IBack is not the producers of these so you have no idea where they were produced. Doesn't sound to good to me.

Dale, you might want to check out their site for yourself.
Karaoke Warehouse sells the same name brand CDGs (like Chartbuster, THM, Pocket Songs & even Sound Choice) that you can buy anywhere else. If you purchase a "custom" disk, they are a true compilation of CDG songs that do show lyrics. And the downloads do show lyrics. They are zip files that contain both an mp3 and a cdg file.

You will see that KW does sell top quality, name brand products and even recommends Hoster to their customers for use on their computers. I have bought disks & hardware (players & mics) from them as well as a few other well-known companies (on-line) for many years now, rather than driving to "karaoke store", that may or may not have what I want in stock. Their description of their products is concise & I have also found them to be dependable.

[Skybird74]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

All they are doing is acting as an agent for MTU and redirecting the order to MTU. Their page for Hoster isn't even up to date. They still list 4.10. For the computer you are paying extra for a middleman. KW lists it for $2299.99 and MTU's price is $1899.99.

What is impressive to me is that they also value "quality" by recommending Hoster to their customers, even if they are a bit behind on their info. It's always true that you will pay more (retail price) for anything at a "store/distributor" than you will pay when buying anything directly from a "manufacturer/producer".

[RandyMcCharles]

Yes. There are links to IbackTracks and SingAnyTime. (I didn't expect 2 and stopped looking after finding iBackTracks). SingAnyTime has a clear license statement: personal use only. They also show who manufactured each track. I saw ASK & All Star, though possibly they have others.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Yes. There are links to IbackTracks and SingAnyTime. (I didn't expect 2 and stopped looking after finding iBackTracks). SingAnyTime has a clear license statement: personal use only. They also show who manufactured each track. I saw ASK & All Star, though possibly they have others.

I did the samething and didn't see the second link. Sorry Skybird.
As far as this license statement it is actually the samething that is stated on the CDs too. No one has questioned that statement for doing karaoke and no lawsuits have been charged for the way we use them.
With that said the question really is not how we use them, but whether they have gotten the song files from the existing CD vendors (buy a CD then sell the songs as downloads) with permission to sell them on line or have produced their own and paid the proper royalty fees through the musicians organizations. This is where the legality question comes into play.

Originally Posted by Skybird74

What is impressive to me is that they also value "quality" by recommending Hoster to their customers, even if they are a bit behind on their info. It's always true that you will pay more (retail price) for anything at a "store/distributor" than you will pay when buying anything directly from a "manufacturer/producer".

Not true. Most manufacturers set an MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) and it is usually higher than what most sell the item for. When they do that then the manufacturer's price is usually that price and everyone else is slightly lower or that price.
In the case of MTU, they do not have any authorized resellers so have not set a suggested retail price.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

I did the samething and didn't see the second link. Sorry Skybird.
As far as this license statement it is actually the samething that is stated on the CDs too. No one has questioned that statement for doing karaoke and no lawsuits have been charged for the way we use them.
With that said the question really is not how we use them, but whether they have gotten the song files from the existing CD vendors (buy a CD then sell the songs as downloads) with permission to sell them on line or have produced their own and paid the proper royalty fees through the musicians organizations. This is where the legality question comes into play.

so where do you go , or who do you ask for support if you bought your Hoster from reseller ( distributor ), would you also get a " free upgrade" or your stucked with what you bought?

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by billyo

so where do you go , or who do you ask for support if you bought your Hoster from reseller ( distributor ), would you also get a " free upgrade" or your stucked with what you bought?

You get support and upgrades the same way we all do now....from MTU.

[admin]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

And this is where it gets very confusing. After reading several vague FAQs and answers to emails, what it looks like:

1. The manufacturer/download company only purchases personal use rights. (Possibly the public use rights are including in the mechanical rights, which I think is tied to the pressing of the CDG)

2. However, bars pay for the rights to play music in their establishment, which is why they can play a radio or music station). These rights also include the playing karaoke music.

3. The point of contention is in displaying the karaoke lyrics, which is not included in the entertainment fees the bar is paying. Therefore it should be just fine to take your download and sing to it provided only you, the private purchaser, see the lyrics. And there seems to be no mechanism for you as a download purchaser to pay for the right to show the lyrics in public.

Therefore, it appears to be technically illegal for a KJ to purchase a karaoke download and use it in commercial or non-commercial public shows. It can, however, be used in private, non-commercial settings.

That said, everything I have seen has been vague and unclear. Even the manufacturers and download companies don't seem to have a clear understanding. Most of them don't seem to have a license statement or a FAQ. Those that did were unclear. I emailed for clarification and either got further muddiness for no answer.

If anyone can shed more light on the the question of legally using a download in place of a manufactured CDG, please enlighten us.

Some of the legal facts are answered at our "copyright notes" page.

1. It is ILLEGAL in the USA for anyone to sell or provide "digital download" format Karaoke CDG style songs. There is no such thing as a "personal/private" -vs- "public" license. There is one license, and it does NOT include electronic download format. That is why MTU doesn't provide KMA/KMH songs already stored on a Hard Drive with our Hoster Laptops. We would if we could!

2. Correct - An ASCAP/BMI license includes performing Karaoke a/k/a lyrics presented to the AUDIENCE, not just the Host (private) or Singer (public). However, as stated on our page above, the Host must OWN (i.e. PROPERLY PAID FOR) the songs they play. A $400 HDD with 35,000 songs is NOT LEGAL,no matter how you want to justify it. If you are caught with one of these, after legal court proceedings, you can loose ALL your stuff you use to put on shows, including the vehicle you transport the "copyright violation" goods in. Don't do it.

3. Read my #2 answer. Your assumptions are incorrect.

Why is it vague and hidden? NO DOWNLOAD SITE IS LEGAL for purchase and use in the USA. Out-of-Country sites such as "T..." has, is illegal to use in the USA (they are in Canada so they aren't violating USA copyright law). This is from the Record Companies (Sony, BMG, Arista, etc.) who also don't recognize that CD technology has been replaced by electronic, instant download over the Internet. That is why they won't survive the "technology shift" if they don't wake up.

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I clicked on a link from Karaoke Warehouse and went to ibackTracks. Under terms of use it said: "The tracks distributed by iBackTracks recordings are for personal use and live performance. However, elsewhere it said that downloaded tracks do not include lyrics. If you purchase a custom disk however, you will receive lyrics if they are available. I could not find a notice that said their tracks were not for public use. (I am sure it is there, I just couldn't find it

Music minus vocals, or remastered music with a license to do so are legal. Showing the lyrics is not, without distributing it on a CDG format disc. KW is a Karaoke Producer, that pays the licenses to produce CDG songs/discs. They have five (5) MTU Karaoke Pro Workstations they use to create their CD+G songs. They are fully legal in all their dealings, to our knowledge. It is possible that they have licensed this "ibacktracks" to digitally download their music, but not their synchronized lyrics... unless iback is out of the Continental USA.

Originally Posted by billyo

those mp3 karaoke disc only come with the vocal guides, but no graphics, it's a step back, like using the old cassette tapes, one side with vocals, one side with tracks, at least those cassetes came with lyric sheets

Can't comment on what "those karaoke discs" contain... mp3 w/o lyrics, or CDG w/lyrics. With lyrics is legal as I stated above.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

The catch here is they do not include the lyrics in their downloads so actually these are not MP3+G as Karaoke Warehouse would lead you to believe. Even if you order them on CD they will not have the display the lyrics, thus they are CDA files and not CDG. If they have the lyrics available they will send them on a sheet af paper included.
So because they do not include the lyrics then they do not have to pay all the same royalties as normal and lawsuits because of the confusion in the industry. Even IBack is not the producers of these so you have no idea where they were produced. Doesn't sound to good to me.

Dale is correct. If they did a "digital download" of CD+G, they would be sued. The "mechanical rights" that Karaoke Producers pay do NOT INCLUDE digital download rights. Greedy, greedy,greedy Record Labels want to make more money for digital downloads.

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Yes. There are links to IbackTracks and SingAnyTime. (I didn't expect 2 and stopped looking after finding iBackTracks). SingAnyTime has a clear license statement: personal use only. They also show who manufactured each track. I saw ASK & All Star, though possibly they have others.

Karaoke Warehouse produces under the ASK (All Star Karaoke) and All Star labels.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

I did the samething and didn't see the second link. Sorry Skybird.
As far as this license statement it is actually the samething that is stated on the CDs too. No one has questioned that statement for doing karaoke and no lawsuits have been charged for the way we use them.
With that said the question really is not how we use them, but whether they have gotten the song files from the existing CD vendors (buy a CD then sell the songs as downloads) with permission to sell them on line or have produced their own and paid the proper royalty fees through the musicians organizations. This is where the legality question comes into play.

As stated above, KW produces the ASK/All Star songs/discs. They are fully legal. Copying songs from other producers and digitally downloading would bring the wrath of the Courts down on Ibacktracks, if they are distributing OTHER than ASK/All Star.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Not true. Most manufacturers set an MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) and it is usually higher than what most sell the item for. When they do that then the manufacturer's price is usually that price and everyone else is slightly lower or that price.
In the case of MTU, they do not have any authorized resellers so have not set a suggested retail price.

Karaoke Warehouse is MTU's only distributor today. Sometimes their prices are not updated when we change our models. That's why our Hoster Ruggedized Laptop is priced higher than we do... we recently pointed this out to them.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

You get support and upgrades the same way we all do now....from MTU.

Yep!

[SteveWalker]

You don't have to take the chance of being illegal. It's very simple, don't spend a dime on downloads. Only purchase CDG's that provide physical proof of ownership. Finally, only use what you paid for in your professional karaoke shows in public.

Come on and admit it, this is the correct solution to our problem.

It's only you guys out there who refuse to pay your way that have a problem with this solution.

Please don't bore us with your silly justifications of why it's ok. Can you look in the mirror and say to yourself that you are running an honest business?

The manufacters of CDG's deserve to be paid for what they do. We karaoke KJ's deserve to have fair competition and level playing field where everyone pays for the songs that they use in public karaoke shows.