Contests ... Good or Bad?

[swany]

TRIPLE THREAT KARAOKE CONTEST

Must qualify in all three venues to get in
the finals. Your total plus, your score on finals
determines winner.

Three Judges will be the same the entire contest and hired by the bar
Their pay is dinner and drinks.

Name ___________________________

Oldies ____________________________

Rock _____________________________

Country __________________________

Scores

Voice 1- 10 ________

Appearence 1- 10 ________

Don't Use Monitor 2 ____

Interact with crowd 1 - 5 __

TOTAL __________

This is the format of a contest we recently ran, on finals night the obvious winner forgot his lyrics and walked off. He came in third because of his total pts during qualification. The guy that came in second was running around 5th in pts, he aced is final song (You have to sing two in the finals) a nice slow number and danced with his wife during it. The young man that came in first, was running in second place, he aced both of his songs in the finals and out pointed everyone. He was not the best voice, but a very good singer to be in the finals anyway, had the crowd and the judges after the #1 guy in points goofed on his final song. For the record I was against doing this contest and my wife was the one who got it going, I am very proud of her and this contest because the outcome was fair and no major gripes.

[bryant]

Singing is an art form and and art form cannot be judged.

Who is to say whenther Tim McGraw is better than Faith Hill.
It just doesn't make any sense, unless faith on any given day forgets one word, looks at the monitor for a second and Tim doesn't?? Then Tim wins. Or Tim's tie is crooked and loses two points on the scoresheet and puts him in second. Again, makes no sense.
Also, there are many amateurs that have sung previously in local bands who have all the other points on the sheet racked up because they've been there and done that and can look more natural doing it, but may NOT sing as good as the real amateur.
I think you would have to have categories and levels of categories to the point where you would have more categories than singers to be totally fair, again, makes no sense.
You simply cannot judge a form of art like that.
Most KJ's already can tell when they see a great singer.
Then you would add "If this guy ever competed, he would always win".
On that premise, he would win mostly all local contests in that area. But that would make no sense either.
And most non-professional judges are "exactly" that.
Again, this makes no sense to run a conest attempting to judge an art form.
"Is Elton John better than Barbra Streisand, think about it!
This thought process makes no sense.

I see a rubric in a past voice, it compares:
Voice....what the heck does that mean, there are 8,000 ways to determine the quality of a voice and that is very personal and is decided genetically(judging the sound of a voice and its appeal is genetic).

Appearance: Geesh, if you are singing rap it would be typical to appear like a rap singer, but how does a rap singer appear like a rap singer more than a country singer appears like a country singer...makes no sense.

Don't use monitor: The best hosts of all time "Johnny Carson and Dave Letterman use them all the time.
Also, it is memory that determines a peak at a monitor, nothing to do with the virtue of a singer.

Interact with crowd: Statistically, any small sample used as a reference is considered to have no statistical meaning whatsoever. Most crowds are small and chosen by the singers and are biased and "tied" to singers, and become part of the already "nonprofessional" judges.
That is why only recently music awards have started to be chosen by the public.."because of the internet "hopefully" reaching a much larger crowd of people that may be considered normalized over a great range". They had thought of doing this earlier(before internet)..but those responding would be the small percentage that would take the time to write in several hundred letters a piece, indicating a skewed sample.

Anybody agree with my analysis after giving it much thought?

[alanross]

Every KJ I know, hates doing contests because they are exactly what Karaoke is not. Karaoke is an opportunity for people to get up and sing some of their favorite songs. Period.

Now Karaoke can be used as a tool for people to develop their talents and it can even be used as a platform from which great talent can be discovered, but it was never designed to be a tool for measuring who is "better" than the others.

I have often used the same argument about who is better - Tim McGraw or Garth Brooks. It is an extremely subjective thing. Music is all about the emotions it evokes in you and every person has different emotions about every song and singer.

There is no fair way to judge who is a better singer, but life is not fair and contests will continue because people who compete have a pyschological need to get a gauge of where the fit in in society and bar owners love the revenues.

- Alan

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by bryant

Singing is an art form and and art form cannot be judged...........Anybody agree with my analysis after giving it much thought?

No analysis required. Singing is judged thousands of times a day all over the world. Every kind of art you can think of has been judged since the beginning of time.

[bryant]

I see you haven't given the rest of the analysis much thought, however. very few art forms are judged, and when they are, they are simply based on how much they sold, and to whom, and even then there are many, many categories that they are whittled down in.

[swany]

Appearence, go up there with dirty work clothes on and you'll be judged on your appearence. Face it a country singer with well worn jeans and straw hat is acceptable their clothes are clean, as is a rapper with a hat on backwards. Dress like a slob that won't get you any points anywhere and you will be judged by your appearence everywhere.

Interact with the crowd, we use wireless mics in all our shows hence points for not using a monitor also can garner you points for interacting. Everyone knows the rules, bring your friends to cheer you on.

The contest we hosted went like this, 1st young man had 4 friends at his table did he sing to them only. No way. 2nd place gentleman, at his table was his wife did he sing to her only, yes his last song, his first to the whole bar. 3rd place gentleman had 5 at his table, he wandered all through the bar. Kinda shoots down the theory that the friends won it for them don't it. When you have 100 people cheering you, something was done to make them happy.

Singing is an art form, and cannot be judged? Tell that to an american idol winner with a million dollar contract. Which one? Classic art, country art, rap art. Calling singing an art is a far left coast idea, singing is a TALENT, some have a lot some just have fun with it, some sell their talent to the highest bidder. Some enter karaoke contests and win. They are called artists, and their singing venue is their art form wearing a cowboy hat and singing country makes you a country artist, pick an area that is country and your appearence will sell samo samo with rock, rap, hip hop ect, without talent they would not be called for anything.

Still having fun.

[bryant]

I'm glad to see someome disagrees, however, every point you brought up still involves comparing apples with oranges.

having just as much fun!

[TouchedArtist]

I'm a new KJ... but I have been singing at Karaoke Events for at least 7 years now and every contest that I have ever been involved with, has been a disaster.

I'm not sure if it's the area that I live in or if this is a common problem but, the REGULARS always win the contests around here. Even if there are better singers. I've asked on a number of occassion now that I'm a KJ not to have contests because I think that they ultimatly ruin what could be a good time for everyone.

I've never won a contest but that has nothing to do with me not liking them, I just feel that there are times that contests drive singers away from the bar instead of to it. If you are in a contest that you have to 'qualify for' meaning that there are PRELIMINARY ROUNDS, after most people qualify, they don't come back to the finals. Which causes your bar to loose money and as you KJ's know...if you don't make the bar money, you don't keep your job!

I like to hear about SUCCESSFUL CONTESTS THOUGH...Good luck to all!

[alanross]

Regulars winning the contest even if there are non-regular vocalists who sing better is entirely a function of how the contest is administered.

This thread has existed for the past couple of years and since my first post to this thread, we've had several contests, each more popular than the last because we put the contestants in charge of the judging (I'm still in awe of whomever first thought of doing that).

We no longer have any griping about the winners, we have had many non-regular winners and everyone knows to take it seriously.

If you're going to have a contest, you must make sure that everyone participating is on the same page. Contestants must be made to pay attention to each other and understand that they should judge each other as they would like to be judged.

There needs to be a clear definition of the criteria for the judging and everyone must be made aware of it. A printout with the basic guidelines is extremely helpful. This way the contestants know how to present themselves and their songs and what to look for in the other contestants when they perform. We've refined our criteria to Song Choice (how well does that song seem to fit the singer's personality and appearence - 25% of score); Stage Presence (how well they command the stage - 25% of score) and Vocal Talent (how well do they use their voice and how pleasant is the quality of the voice - 50% of score).

Each contestant/judge is seated with a good view of the stage, they're not allowed distractions by having their boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife sitting next to them. The waitstaff deliver their drinks, and every four or five songs, we take a short bathroom break by either playing one song or having a non-contestant sing one song. The three or four minutes that the song plays is usually enough for a quick comfort break and it's not so long that people lose interest. This seems to work very well.

Once the contestant/judges have scored the last singer, all judging forms are collected and one of the staff will tally the scores. We continue with general Karaoke until the scores have been tallied twice to make sure there are no mathematical errors and then the winners and prizes are announced.

Run properly, you can have a very successful event, but as bryant was trying to point out - there really is no way to take the subjective point of view out of judging. By making the criteria very specific, you can reduce the subjectivity of the contest, but it's all about personal tastes and there is no way around that.

As long as people want to compete and other people want to watch, the bars will make money and the KJs will have to do their thing. It's the way of the world and there's never been any claim that any contest is 100% fair.

- Alan

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by TouchedArtist

I'm not sure if it's the area that I live in or if this is a common problem but, the REGULARS always win the contests around here.

The short answer is that they just like to keep the money in the family. I sure you can understand that, right?

[bryant]

Once again, based on the previous posts information, it can not to be considered a true contest that CAN BE adequately judged and further supports my previous analogy and conclusion as "making no sense"!

[bryant]

Originally Posted by alanross

This thread has existed for the past couple of years and since my first post to this thread, we've had several contests, each more popular than the last because we put the contestants in charge of the judging (I'm still in awe of whomever first thought of doing that).

We no longer have any griping about the winners, we have - Alan

It is called "peer evaluation" and has been around for over 1000 years. Nothing new.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by TouchedArtist

I'm a new KJ... but I have been singing at Karaoke Events for at least 7 years now and every contest that I have ever been involved with, has been a disaster.

I'm THROUGH...Good luck to all!

That's because they make no sense. It's like putting a chess player and a checker player at the same gameboard at the same time.

I know gduns HATES my analogies, but I think karaoke contests are analogous to comparing apples and oranges, which further interprets into making little or no sense. I am hoping gduns agrees with me on this one, but we'll see.

[bryant]

Oh I forgot to add this one. The best story I ever heard was from a former contestant who once took a 2nd place and complained it did not make any sense because she was simply no where near that good to be "voted" second. She is now one of my regulars and I know she was not "just being modest". She had entered that contest because she was a regular of the other hosts at that time. In other words, the other host has lost out, in agreement with a previous post that stated the KJ always gets the flack.

I have never run a contest, and have refused to every time it comes up, and I keep picking up other hosts' regulars as part of the result.

[SteveWalker]

Originally Posted by bryant

Once again, based on the previous posts information, it can not to be considered a true contest that CAN BE adequately judged and further supports my previous analogy and conclusion as "making no sense"!

Strictly speaking you are correct. Maybe you shouldn't be so strict!

[bryant]

Originally Posted by SteveWalker

Maybe you shouldn't be so strict!

I agree thanx.

[horseshoe]

Some of this amazes me. Them most popular television show is a contest between different people doing different styles of music.

I had the honor of being asked to be a judge at a contest last week. I work in the bar on Wednesday night, but this was the Sunday night crowd. It was a final elimination contest for a big cash award and a recording contract. All the judges were neutral and didn't know any of the singers. There were six of us, and we all came from different backgrounds in music.

One guy runs a very successful singing telegram company, and is a radio personality. Another is a lawyer who is a talent scout and an agent who represents different singers. One had attended the Julliard school of music. The rest of us were KJs who have worked around this area for a number of years, and were invited to participate, and be judges.

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

One contestant had won all the local events before, because they had graded on the audience clapping and screaming. Therefore, he always brought his big crowd with him, wherever a contest was held. Then of course, they would leave. He did not place in the top three, because he was not as good as the winners. Everyone of them were allowed to look at the score cards if they wanted. He requested to do that, and then said he was satisfied with the results. Not one person in the audience said anything bad about the judging, except to say it was very fair, and almost to a person agreed on the top three. Almost everyone said the winner had been the best, however second and third could have gone either way.

We stayed and sang the rest of the night, and were warmly greeted and had drinks bought for us all night long from the contestants. I thought they were very gracious and every one of them showed class. Of course, many of them left, and took their crowd with them. Hell, they didn't buy anything but soft drinks anyway, so no big loss.

I can't wait to do it again next year, though I won't do any contests in my Wednesday night gig.

[George]

Originally Posted by horseshoe

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

Exactly...and if approached from the qualities it takes to have a well delivered song; those you mentioned, plus being in obvious control of their voice, breath control, delivery of the lyrics, etc, all are playing the same game, different songs or not,and can be judged on the overall presentation.

George

[bryant]

Originally Posted by horseshoe

Some of this amazes me. Them most popular television show is a contest between different people doing different styles of music.

I had the honor of being asked to be a judge at a contest last week. I work in the bar on Wednesday night, but this was the Sunday night crowd. It was a final elimination contest for a big cash award and a recording contract. All the judges were neutral and didn't know any of the singers. There were six of us, and we all came from different backgrounds in music.

One guy runs a very successful singing telegram company, and is a radio personality. Another is a lawyer who is a talent scout and an agent who represents different singers. One had attended the Julliard school of music. The rest of us were KJs who have worked around this area for a number of years, and were invited to participate, and be judges.

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

One contestant had won all the local events before, because they had graded on the audience clapping and screaming. Therefore, he always brought his big crowd with him, wherever a contest was held. Then of course, they would leave. He did not place in the top three, because he was not as good as the winners. Everyone of them were allowed to look at the score cards if they wanted. He requested to do that, and then said he was satisfied with the results. Not one person in the audience said anything bad about the judging, except to say it was very fair, and almost to a person agreed on the top three. Almost everyone said the winner had been the best, however second and third could have gone either way.

We stayed and sang the rest of the night, and were warmly greeted and had drinks bought for us all night long from the contestants. I thought they were very gracious and every one of them showed class. Of course, many of them left, and took their crowd with them. Hell, they didn't buy anything but soft drinks anyway, so no big loss.

I can't wait to do it again next year, though I won't do any contests in my Wednesday night gig.

I admire this exception to the rule, as is the "American Idle" contests. These contests have very very exceptionally trained judges who are looking for very specific and unique abilities that are worked on for years by the contestants who also have practiced for years and know exactly through a series of pre-interviews what is being judged and by who, and it still takes years for the "Idol" contest to come up with a winner. Anyone that assumes that the "American Idol" is an over night sensation thing is fooling themselves. Someone in my area once went to a state final. The work that was put into it eve at that point was like a full time job. It was like his job performance was simply finally being evaluated. Very unlike a local typical "no sense" karaoke contest.

[gotrich]

I have been in business for 2 years now my contest works like this. You sign up by said time. Each contestant will be judged on a score of 1-100, 50 being average. I have a few people come in and volunteer to judge. A friend a fience a bartender from a different bar.I use 2-3 each night. we run for 12 weeks and take 2 qualifiers a niht based on the score. Score is based on judges oppinion of song. I explain to them that you can take in to account the voice/stage show whatever. This is explained before and after each contest. Also it is said IT IS ALL FOR FUN many time throughout the evening. The semi finalst I try to find different judges if I can. The semi finals will narrow the 24 to 12. I then get a local music teacher, or local radio DJ or Local High profile band member to volunteer... out of all these option I can always find 3 guest VOLUNTEERS. And then the 12 sing 1 song narrowed down to 6 those 6 sing one song and then the last 3 sing for the money..so have 3 songs do them like the origional artist or in you rown style..basically ENTERTAIN US!!! thats it its that simple. of course you get a few who cant sing or whateverand complain but overall they are ok. I have thought about letting the judges pick a winner and the audience pick the other. Or letting winners from weeks before judge but they would vote low on the better singer hoping they dont have to compete, and thought about letting each contestant judge the one on stage but immaturity andjelousy and drunkness get in the way.