Legal or illegal

[billyo]

don't they have to have some kind of a court order to inspect what's in your comp. and have a branch of the law with them ?, just imagine going to court and asking for a court order just to check out a karaoke player if he's legit or not.. , i can see the judge's face what if you have some personal documents in your pc, isn't that invasion of privacy?, i'm not worried about if a kj is legit or not, what i don't like is kj under cutting other kj's..but that's another story....

[bryant]

Originally Posted by billyo

don't they have to have some kind of a court order to inspect what's in your comp. and have a branch of the law with them ?, just imagine going to court and asking for a court order just to check out a karaoke player if he's legit or not.. , i can see the judge's face what if you have some personal documents in your pc, isn't that invasion of privacy?, i'm not worried about if a kj is legit or not, what i don't like is kj under cutting other kj's..but that's another story....

Yup, any time any branch of the law needs to talk to you about anything or inspect anything, they have to have obvious cause that you really and most likely did something unlawful.

Look at the case of "murder" even. You can't even be tried for it unless there is enough evidence shown to a Grand jury, and often times the grand jury won't allow the trial. Not because you didn't do it, but because of NOT having enough evidence that it was obvious to the most casual of observers that you did (do it).

[billyo]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I continue to poke around the KIAA website and what I cannot find is a list of their members. This absense prevents me from knowing how legitimate they are! I am also wondering how I am supposed to know if the Kj at the local pub has been certified by them as legitimate. Is there a sign in the window? If so, how do I know if that the sign is not a fake. It would be a real hoot to nark on a Kj only to discover that at one time the Kj was certified by them but now has a bootleg song.

Anyway, I am impressed by the general information on the site, but can find little evidence there that they are actively persecuting Kjs or clubs.

got a question about license, how do you get one, i have never heard about a kj getting a licence, and how do you proposed auditing a kj with a hhd , an auditor can't just walk in a venue and stop a show just to see if the kj has the disc of a song he's playing, an audit noticed would not work either, if a kj knows that he would be audited on a certain day/time..he could easily copy his non legal songs on another hhd, and then delete it from his show hhd...do they go into the venue and write down every song the kj's/singer is singing ?...and this question is for everyone..how many of us brings their original disc to a show? just wondering, i know i don't....and also if a kj's friend hhd failed in the mid. of a show and you happened to be there would you let him/her used your hhd and would that be considered illegal too, don't assumed anything caused non of my friends hhd failed yet...mostly it's their laptops !!!! and they have a back-ups ( hhds & lappies )

[ddouglass]

There are no licenses for KJs in the US. That was in Canada.
Since no one here has encountered anything in the way of auditting or being confronted about the legality of their song files, then it would all be speculation.
And yes letting someone else use your hard drive would be just as illegal as loaning him your CDs.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

There are no licenses for KJs in the US. That was in Canada.
Since no one here has encountered anything in the way of auditting or being confronted about the legality of their song files, then it would all be speculation.

oh ok, i have never let anyone used my hhd, since i don't bring them with me when i go to friends show, and most of them has back-ups anyway...

[bryant]

Originally Posted by billyo

how many of us brings their original disc to a show?

When my shows are out of town, such as most of my weddings are, I will bring my CD's with me and leave them in the truck (chevy blazer). Most (all) of my KJ shows are within a mile of my house so I just leave my cdg's at home, but I do know of some KJ's and DJ's in this area that bring their disks with them as backups in case their laptops fail.

There was one DJ 20 miles from here that last year he was fined 750 dollars a song he played at a gig he didn't have the original disk for. The fine was for 7 songs. Not sure how that evolved but I remember that it started with his illegal downloading (sharing of mp3 files) and his internet server (provider) was contacted. It became known that he was sharing illegal files to begin with. He was arrested by the state police at his home the next day following his gig; for copyright infringement.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

And yes letting someone else use your hard drive would be just as illegal as loaning him your CDs.

Dale, I was once told that a CD is like a book. You can have one copy and use it like a book, which meant (I think) that you can loan it out at any time to any one, as long as that book (CD) is not used (read) at the same time as another copy of itself.

[RandyMcCharles]

In Canada you don't get a KJ license, you get a business licence. A KJ cannot work in a venue without a business license, though venues 'can' hire under the table at the risk of losing their own business license. Mostly this is to ensure that income tax is paid.
In order to get a business license to be a KJ you have to describe your business, which description includes playing properly licensed music. The Canadian gvt is very paranoid about licensed music. I don't know about the US, but in Canada when you buy a blank CD you pay a music tax because the gvt assumes you will copy music to it and then also assumes that you got the music without paying royalties. It doesn't matter if you are using the CDs for photos from your camera or are making legal copies of music you paid for. They assume the worst and everyone pays. Some of that money even gets distributed to musicians. Anyway, I am not a professional Kj, but I spoke to one about her business license and she told me that she must undergo a voluntary audit once or twice a year. She pays a registered auditor to inspect her hard drive and her CGS collection and receipts and writes a letter stating that all is in good order. Without this letter, she cannot renew her business license, and without a business license, venues will not hire her.

[BooBoo]

As long as they approve of some of the songs I have purchased from sites that advertise they are licensed. All I could do at that point would be to point them to the companies legal statements. I also have had two customers that purchased legal Cd's on their own and only visit my show. They wanted them in my list and the only way I would do it is to own the CD and they gave them to me. In most cases I go out and buy the Cd's but these two insisted..

The people with those 75,000 song drives are taking over. I have visited several shows of late and all of them have it. While the first priority is to get the ppl selling the drives, getting these ppl using them should be right behind.

I've got no problem with the guy that is "95%" legal and I doubt the disk makers would either. Legal up the 5% and have a nice day. The 100% illegal ppl need to suffer serious fines and that goes for the bars that hire them.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

In Canada you don't get a KJ license, you get a business licence. A KJ cannot work in a venue without a business license, though venues 'can' hire under the table at the risk of losing their own business license. Mostly this is to ensure that income tax is paid.
In order to get a business license to be a KJ you have to describe your business, which description includes playing properly licensed music. The Canadian gvt is very paranoid about licensed music. I don't know about the US, but in Canada when you buy a blank CD you pay a music tax because the gvt assumes you will copy music to it and then also assumes that you got the music without paying royalties. It doesn't matter if you are using the CDs for photos from your camera or are making legal copies of music you paid for. They assume the worst and everyone pays. Some of that money even gets distributed to musicians. Anyway, I am not a professional Kj, but I spoke to one about her business license and she told me that she must undergo a voluntary audit once or twice a year. She pays a registered auditor to inspect her hard drive and her CGS collection and receipts and writes a letter stating that all is in good order. Without this letter, she cannot renew her business license, and without a business license, venues will not hire her.

i had a business llicense at one time, (LLC )even though it's just a hobby for me, but anyway i let it run out since i don't do karaoke shows anymore, just a private gigs here and there( djing 90% of my dj tunes are bought from itunes, some are from own collections ), not even enough to claim as an income ,i used to claimed it , but i still end up paying the IRS. it's the same here in the US, when you buy blank media,( or anything else for that matter ) we just call it sales tax, as long as you pay your taxes, i don't think the gov't cares what you do with it..if it's a voluntary auditing and pay a registered auditor to audit your hhd, it's still a gray line there, she could still copy the non legal songs on another drive and removed it from her show hhd, and present it to the auditor , the auditor doesn't know what she has on it or how many song she's got , so does venue owners, i don't think the owner will go thru her hhd and will asked her to show the original / # of songs she has...

[RandyMcCharles]

You are quite right that KJs can pull one over on the gvt and auditor, but this is true in all business. If you you get caught cheating ,fines are huge and licenses can be revoked. I do know the Kj I spoke to does not cheat and is happy to play by the rules. This may be becuase I have checked out a good number of karaoe venues in the city and and have not seen any of these 75,000 song HDs in use. Most Kjs here are still using CGDs instead of HDs, and those few that use HDs have no more than 20,000 songs and very few recent titles. They look do have copied their CDG collections from their pre-HD days and have not bought much recent music. This could all change, of course.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

You are quite right that KJs can pull one over on the gvt and auditor, but this is true in all business. If you you get caught cheating ,fines are huge and licenses can be revoked. I do know the Kj I spoke to does not cheat and is happy to play by the rules. This may be becuase I have checked out a good number of karaoe venues in the city and and have not seen any of these 75,000 song HDs in use. Most Kjs here are still using CGDs instead of HDs, and those few that use HDs have no more than 20,000 songs and very few recent titles. They look do have copied their CDG collections from their pre-HD days and have not bought much recent music. This could all change, of course.

i can count on one hand in this area that still uses disc, i myself have about 37k , ( not including the cassette tapes )some of these disc were bought before i started doing outside venues,and when i decided to venture out in 2003 then i started buying disc by packs, ( all collections of : sgb, supercore, sound choice,chartbuster mm etc.) i don't buy 1 disc at a time..i know someone who is a pioneer of karaoke in this area used to have 50k songs all in a disc , he's songbooks must have been 8" thick, and he used to carry a big cart that looks like a 4 drawer filing cabinets with all he's cd's in it, he' the first hoster user i've seen in this area..

[billyo]

i think the best way to avoid this problem is to have a registerd license # on every cd's, ( if the manufacturer is willing to do that )that way if someone buys a disc and before it could be imported into a hhd he/she should register it first..but then how can you prevent it from making a copy of the hhd...losing battle

[muzicman144]

I appreciate all the response to this thread, especially the honesty. My final thought is the KIAA is just an organization that has been created using the kJ as a tool to become an informer on other KJs for an organization that has its own self interest in mind. There are persons that if one really researches the entire situation, that has their own self interest as the main ingrediant that stirs the soup. I sincerely believe that after reading all the material available on the lawsuits filed in Arizona that a local power play is in fact the driving point behind the litigation. The local Karaoke Alliance formed in Arizona has emerged as the KIAA. If the results in Phoenix with all the lawsuits is indictive of what we can expect nationally, we will become the witness to a drive to power of an organization that will destroy the Karaoke Industry as we know it.
I hope and pray I'm wrong. I believe we, as and industry, can self police these illegal operations without the help of self interest groups that really don't give crap about the KJ. Thanks for the response
muzicman144

[ddouglass]

I am confused. Here we all seem to profess that we hate those KJ's that are illegal and using pirated material which are hurting our business. Then when an organization comes along that wants the same thing, to get rid of the piraters who are undercutting our businesses you all say they have their own agenda and want to use us as informers. What is so wrong with that? They may have their own reasons for stopping them but the end is still the same. They are out of business and we are better off for it.
That is my parting shot.
Musicman144, good topic and it definately generated some excellent conversations.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Then when an organization comes along that wants the same thing, to get rid of the piraters.

I think that the issue switched over to "Is this really an organization?" or an individual with no power to do what it says it wants to do, indicating maybe just an individual helping himself out.

[ddouglass]

It is not an individual. As to how much they can do remains to be seen. My guess is any pursuit of lawsuits will come from the production companies or may be a joint suit, but we don't know for sue and nothing on the sites tells us what they can do directly or indirectly.

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by bryant

I think that the issue switched over to "Is this really an organization?" or an individual with no power to do what it says it wants to do, indicating maybe just an individual helping himself out.

Bryant, Dale, As respected contributors to this forum, You opinion does carry a certain amount of weight. Dale, my thought on illegal is the same as you, but to contribute to just any organization takes some thought. When one is asked to inform on his fellow man, there is a lot of things to consider. First, and foremost, the question is why, and who benefits, Second, is this a good thing, third, do all the parties agree this is a good thing. After i really looked into every aspect i could find involving the KIAA, and i spent numerous hours on the internet searching for these answers. I could not justify informing on my peers without completely knowing if i was right. i didn't see where this was a good thing because it would open a can of worms that would result in what we are seeing in Phoenix. I do not see this as a good thing. I have come to the conclusion that just as every thing is life that one benefits monetarily from, there is a price to pay. I conclude with this thought, When we look at ourselves tomorrow, did we do the right thing. Only we, have the answer. Again, thanks for you participation.
We all must do what our concience tells us, then pray for the best results.
muzicman144

[ddouglass]

Hopefully we are responsible enough to know that the individual we report on is truly using illegal material. If someone is breaking into a house in your neighbor's house or you know that someone is selling drugs would you not report it? I would hope so. The same goes for piracy. It is against the law.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

It is not an individual. As to how much they can do remains to be seen. My guess is any pursuit of lawsuits will come from the production companies or may be a joint suit, but we don't know for sue and nothing on the sites tells us what they can do directly or indirectly.

Agreed.