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[danny_g]

Steve and papa ray

I know a show host that uses slips for the singers to bring up and a clipboard to keep the rotation together so Steve's idea of combining the slips with the board may work out well.

[Papa Ray]

Steve,

I understand. At first, I had similar reaction, but eventually won over most my singers. Most people walk up to give you a slip, I just ask them to please put the number on the board. The trade off for them is knowing when their turn is. I admit that I do sometimes walk the audience and get numbers... I just never liked sorting out the slips.


Thanks for letting me know how it went,
Keep singing, and don't forget to have fun,

Papa Ray

[jumpmaster]

I have a female heckler...she's odd as she starts out having a great time and within an hour (a few drinks) she hates everybody. The bar owner was very poor at putting their foot down to anybody as they didn't want to loose any customers. I simply explained to them, that this behavior rubs off on other customers...it puts everyone in a bad mood and before long there would be several hecklers. I finally had to give the ultimatum...them or me! I still play there...with no hecklers.

Also, as far as new singers and putting them directly in the rotation I don't agree unless I have shamefully few singers which is rare. Before I became a KJ I loved the start of a show because it was a slow time for singers and I knew I could get a couple new tunes in before the crowd came in. I'd come in early and get one song, then another guy would come in an hour later and get in front of me? I was penalized for showing up early? NO, if a new singer hands me a slip, he or she can look at the person singing and KNOW they're going to be after that singers NEXT song!

DON'T PENALIZE SOMEONE FOR COMMING OUT EARLY! Sorry, a sore spot for me!

[jumpmaster]

I have two problems which I am sure most KJs have come up with a time or two. I have a solution for one I think, and need advice on the other.

First: what to do with the singer who puts in a dozen slips with their name and other peoples as a duet, then expects that song to be the OTHER persons next song...so they can sing over and over and over... I have explained to these people that they cannot just write someones name down, that the other person would have to submit it for it to be the other person's song... blah blah blah. Still, the slips slip in and I have to hear "hey, he and I were supposed to sing..." I think I'll try changing my slips to read "MY NAME: _____________" and have another line that says "Singing With Me: _________". What do you think?

Second, what do you do with the person who wants to jump up and just grab a mic and start singing with another singer who doesn't want them up there? For now, I don't turn their mic on and I call them to me and explain that they can't do that. I've seen KJs just go out to them and take the mic and tell them to sit down (usually bad as appears rude and could meet with resistance) and I've seen KJs just turn on the mic and let 'em go. What do you think?

[danny_g]

I have a rule that no one gets to sing with another unless they are invited. If they have a slip in the offender gets bumped to last place in the rotation their next go round and if they haven't sung yet then I count their jumping in as their turn in the present rotation. If they are invited then I don't penalize them at all.

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
IAlso, as far as new singers and putting them directly in the rotation I don't agree unless I have shamefully few singers which is rare. Before I became a KJ I loved the start of a show because it was a slow time for singers and I knew I could get a couple new tunes in before the crowd came in. I'd come in early and get one song, then another guy would come in an hour later and get in front of me? I was penalized for showing up early? NO, if a new singer hands me a slip, he or she can look at the person singing and KNOW there going to be after that singers NEXT song!

DON'T PENALIZE SOMEONE FOR COMMING OUT EARLY! Sorry, a sore spot for me!

I agree with you as a general rule this is how I do it. However, what do you do when you have a long rotation at the end of the night and most people have sang several times and you know there's only an hour left and the new singer probably won't get up? To make it worse you know the singer or the singer is excellent and everybody wants to hear him or her. I'll let someone else weigh in on this.

[danny_g]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
Also, as far as new singers and putting them directly in the rotation I don't agree unless I have shamefully few singers which is rare. Before I became a KJ I loved the start of a show because it was a slow time for singers and I knew I could get a couple new tunes in before the crowd came in. I'd come in early and get one song, then another guy would come in an hour later and get in front of me? I was penalized for showing up early? NO, if a new singer hands me a slip, he or she can look at the person singing and KNOW they're going to be after that singers NEXT song!

DON'T PENALIZE SOMEONE FOR COMMING OUT EARLY! Sorry, a sore spot for me!

Not a good way to make a new comer an often comer in my book. A new person gets in that rotation no matter if I put them at the end of the rotation or enter them soon. I have since added them to the end of the rotation unless I am running out of time then they get the priority treatment since the others have had several turns already. How is it penalizing someone who has had 2 or 3 songs to bump their next song back a slip to allow someone who has not gotten to sing one song anyway. The way you are doing it means the new comer gets the impression that you don't give a flying care whether they return to your show or not. I have been asked to replace hosts that did this once due to that particular insulted person going to the owner and saying that them and their family who actually come on other nights that have no karaoke that they won't come back on the other nights unless they get rid of that show host that snubbed them. This individual happed to have about fifteen to twenty realtives that regualarly showed up and heavily drank almost every night of the week. there. So who got penalized there. By the way I no longer do that show as I moved out of that area.

[Cid_cat]

All of the issues discussed are valid and very touchy. The bottom line being, YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE ALL THE TIME.
Basically, I try to give the "hook up" to my regular singers when I can (ie last song of the night). Having done this favor on occasion, each understands the sorrow they feel when I grant the favor to someone else for the night. They always understand and they always return.
A few more points to be made: I ALWAYS make a public announcement when the rotation starts getting too full, around 30 singers. That announcement being, "NO MORE NEW SINGERS". With this repeated announcement, I've basically trained the patrons to get to the show early if you want to sing more than once or twice in a night. After you make the announcenment, it cuts the grief you're given from the customers about not being able to sing one more rotation. And finally, I have one other announcement that I make as the night winds down: "If you're singing right now, you will not sing again". This is just another public way of addressing the "Will I sing again" issue. The only negative to this: sometimes people sing their turn, then leave the club. At least they get home early, get some sleep and return the next night.
Hope this information helps someone.

[Papa Ray]

Greetings all.

I agree more with Jumpmaster. As a long time karaoke customer, and the last 3 years a KJ, I don't punish my regulars who have been sitting patiently for an hour or so, by slipping a newbee in front. I will sometimes "work" new people in if I can, but as a rule, the new person will wait a rotation...... And most new singers EXPECT to wait their turn. I admit this is the hardest issue facing KJ's. I will make an exception rarely....I have, on occasion, refused to break order, even at the request of the restaurant owner. It's my reputation for fair treatment at stake, not the restaurants! I don't even slip my good friends in out of order.

As an long time customer, fair rotation is my pet peeve. Two weeks ago, a customer declared that he must be next. I explained the rotation, and politely told him that he was 3 singers away. He came back not 2 minutes later… demanding that he should be next. I politely told him that I decide who’s next, and that his number was about to slip to the end of the line… he ask for his disk and left… I guess he showed me…. I look at it as one less jerk.

This one of only two things that bring out the A-hole in me. The other is mistreating my equipment.

Take care,

Papa Ray

[jumpmaster]

I do not put late comers in the rotation (even if the other singers have had 6 songs - even if they sing great - or whatever)...now I have been known to try to squeeze a regular if at all possible, but as a general rule, I don't bump anybody. For me, there is no question that it works best. Besides, why if someone has been partying with us all night, would I want to bump them, for some person who didn't care enough about us to come out earlier. Now the suggestion was that they worked late or whatever, and that is probably the person I would try to squeeze in.

My singers pay attention to the rotation! They see Fred sing and then I call them up to sing. An hour later I call Fred up, and guess what...when Fred is done...they're ready, and I for one don't blame them!

Late comers need to know the rules just as the regulars do. If singing that song is important, then come early. I knew a KJ who would immediately put late comers in, and guess what...like clock work, at closing time, the bar hoppers who hadn't spent a nickel at my gig, walk through the door and expected to sing -- and they did, and the regulars grumbled a great deal. I know he had way more of that than I ever have had, I think, because I don't encourage it and he did. Sorry, my obligation is to the people who support my gig and above all, those who had the sense to get there early enough to get their slips in on time!

Again, don't mean to stand on a soapbox, and I do try to squeeze occassionally for regulars or folks with good reasons for not being early, but my rule is MY rule and I do my best to stick to it.

[George]

Going to let my ignorance show through here. Been following these threads with great interest. Am quite surprised though to see no mention of using alphabetical rotation(Last name, First Name). It would seem on the surface that alphabetical rotation woule cure more problems than it would generate. For example, placing a singer in the rotation would be automatic eliminating the "selective bumping" making it completely impersonal. Also, if a singer wants to both solo and duet, the solo would be in his(or her) name, and the duet in the partner's name. Normally this would automatically space them out as the probability of them having identical last and first names is rather remote. After the initial rush, as they sign in they take their turn. If the rotation has passed their letter, they wait until it comes around again, if not they get up when it comes up. Bumping will still occur, but an understandable one that should take the decision making burden off the KJ's hands. The guy named Zycowski still won't like it, but may accept it easier than the way he's getting bumped now as he has been conditioned all his life to getting at the end of the line.

Obviously this was just skimming the surface. I'll let you guys ponder the details.

Dunno, just brainstorming. My hat's off to you guys for the work you do and the crud you put up with doing it. I wouldn't want the problem.

Take Care,

George

[Papa Ray]

Looks like rotation is the hottest subject.. with good reason. Rotation IS the single most likely point of conflict. I wish I had an answer, but I only have feeble attempts at controlling the whole table of people who try to hog the stage by putting everyone’s name up. This is perhaps my biggest problem.

Feeble attempt:
For the most part, singers are a single act, or a group, but not both.
Any person whose name is on my board must be the primary singer for the song they put up…. At that point, others may join if invited. (I don’t permit people to randomly “Help-out” the singer with out the request of the singer). I someone wants a duet or group song, they must use their normal turn, and then invite who they want to sing with.

I play it by ear, but when a table attempts to hog the stage I diplomatically invoke the primary singer concept… ‘to insure fairness to all singers’

I use the “primary singer” rule to control the many non singers who put their names up just to get another turn for their friend. If I suspect that a person has no real intention of singing (just stand there holding the mic while their friend sings) I politely ask them to sing louder, reminding them that it is THEIR song, and that the other singer(s) are back-up. I turn their mic up, and the others down as much as necessary… They will either get with the program and sing, or won’t put another number up
Customer reaction to my actions is mixed… everything from “party pooper” (from the abusive table usually) to “great job!”

I’m very open for better ideas, ‘cause I hate when this happens!

Take care,

Papa Ray

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by George
.................Am quite surprised though to see no mention of using alphabetical rotation(Last name, First Name). It would seem on the surface that alphabetical rotation woule cure more problems than it would generate. ............................
Obviously this was just skimming the surface. I'll let you guys ponder the details.

Dunno, just brainstorming. My hat's off to you guys for the work you do and the crud you put up with doing it. I wouldn't want the problem.

Take Care,

George

Hi George,

Wherever there is a waiting line, it's most often first come, first serve and that's what it ought to be. Most people pay attention to who they follow just like in many other activities going back to childhood. I say put the new people (including friends and relatives) to the end of the line and keep the order as it is. If the rotation is long, that means you must be doing something right. People who come late may not get to sing, so instead of karaoke bar hopping they'll come early the next time. KISS method!

Steve

[Flipeoke]

I like the idea of the whiteboard, and currently use a similar system (without the whiteboard) I absolutely despise slips of paper, for this reason: Busy night, large crowd of people handing you slips of paper at the same time...first thought is who handed the slip in first, secondly, a hour later some guy walks up, "Where is my song I handed the slip in an hour ago..." Now whether it was you who lost it in the shuffle, or it was him who never gave it to you in the first place, makes you look bad in someones eyes... So, most people know at my shows that they come up to me and tell me the song they want to sing...I keep a strict rotation based on when they gave me their first song, First person to give me a song for the night, is first right after me. On slower nights, as I see regulars walk in, I will add their name on the list, many of which I will choose a song for unless they tell me otherwise. I know the regulars well enough to pick a song from their repretoir (sp?) and they will often sing it, I will also have one ot two others picked our for them in case of the occasional "That song is too high/low/fast/slow/etc... for me to sing tonight." I have a few singers who will never pick out a sing all night, yet will end up singing 3 or 4 and have a good time, they just tell me put me up for whatever... Often at the end of the night they will come up to me and say "I haven't sang that song in years, I forgot about that one, Thanks." I use a chart-like page with three boxes across the page and 10 boxes down each singer gets a box starting with the first singer in the upper left, second in upper middle, forth in the second row left box...this is my rotation for the night...I will not deviate from this rotation, even at the owners request, or a request from President Jackson, President Grant or Ben Franklin himself (happened once and I almost took that one) People know this system and know who they follow in the rotation, they know so-and-so is singing, I better pick a song quick, I'm next. They also know the rotation does not change halfway through the night. The only exception I will make is if I call up Dave and someone yells out "He's in the bathroom" I will switch him with the next singer then come back to him next song...if he's not out by next song, I'll announce "Going once, twice, maybe later" and If I see him return or he comes up to me he'll be up on his next turn around. Only a couple of times have I taken the cordless mic into the bathroom looking for someone... and only on the real steady regulars, great as a joke. One thing that really blows people away is a good memory, or the appearance of one... Simple trick I've learned... I have a spot on the top of my chart for the date, all my sheets at the end of the night go into a folder arrainged by date... I can see the door as people walk in, a singer comes in who hasn't been there in about 6 months, I know he sang before, but I can't remember his name...open up my folder go back to 6 months ago and flip through a few pages, find his name and songs he's sung...when he walks up to me I say "Hey John, how's it goin, been awhile since you've been here, blah blah blah, whatcha singing tonight?" He says "Blah-blah-blah by so-and-so" then say "Oh, no Iron Maiden tonight?" This technique works really well with the ladies too. Or make a joke about the last time they were in and got rip-roaring drunk, "Hey John, let's try not to swing the mic around tonight and dance on the tables OK?" Make a joke about it in a way that he will know it's not accepted ettiquite, and you look more like a "concerned friend" instead of a pain in the a$$. Do this a few times and not only will they come back for the "personal touch" but you also actually do learn their name and songs. Most often they will come back again and again. It works well since I only host one show a week, my partner does the other one. If you do multiple shows have a folder for Bar A, one for Bar B etc... only occasionaly will you find "Hey that person came in to the other bar a few weeks ago..." and have to pull the other folder. Well, Thats about all I have for now...hope you can understand it all, I know it was a bit long...

Peace...

Mike

[Flipeoke]

Oh just remembered a few more tricks... I use a laptop for my catalog, helps when someone asks what songs do you have by So-and-So...just a few keystrokes and voilla, you tell them... I figured since the laptop is there, why not make more use of it...I take my regular music CDs and put them in in as MP3s, not only does this help in the begining of the night, you just have a playlist playing while setting up doing sound checks etc, but you keep a song cued up in case of emergency...so and so is in the bathroom etc..., play some filler music while you cue up your next singer...also a great way to add sound bytes to your show... We have a gong at the bar where I host, VERY occasionally (and never to a bad singer who is really trying) the bartender will gong a person, most often really drunk people that do nothing but shout into the mic...my favorite is the quote from Chris Tucker "You got knocked the f*** out man!" as soon as that gong, music is off, and that quote plays...very funny! Or play a few sound bytes from Austin Powers throughout the night or an Adam Sandler quote... gets people's attention, and a laugh... Occasionally on slower nights I will announce "Scare-e-oke" and ask for participants... mainly the regulars play, and I will randomly pick out a song for them to sing, sort of a mini contest with no real prizes or winners, but just breaks up the monotony. You know get them to sing the theme from Gilligans Island or Love Boat or something...which by the way is a great song to sing if there is a fight in a bar. Calms people down and most will start laughing as I sing "Love... exciting and new...come aboard..." mix it up a bit and have fun, most people know when you are having fun and it makes it fun for others as well...

Peace...

Mike

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by Flipeoke
I like the idea of the whiteboard, and currently use a similar system (without the whiteboard).................

Peace...

Mike

Hi Flipeoke,

That was a verrrry long sentence! I think I got your point. Now I tried the white board and everybody liked the fact they could see the rotation list but hated having to go up and write there song number.

So here's the compromise that I like very much. Have the singers put their name at the end of the list when they arrive. Tell all the singers to bring there slip or CD up ONLY when their name is called and it's time for them to sing.

Do it this way and you don't have to keep the slips organized, just take the slip from their hand (or take the CDG & ask which track), bring up the song and throw away the slip.

If you don't want to worry about a white board, just keep a written list of the singers yourself to keep you straight.

Best of Luck,
Steve

[danny_g]

That's Great if you're working for yourself an don't care if you have the next singer's discready to go. I now work part time for a company that insists that I am ready to play the next song before I call the singer up. I always worked that way with my twin tray anyway by loading the next singer's song while the present singer is singing. and while the whiteboard sounds nice I prefer the slip management system myself. If a slip is missing I'll usually state my fault and get the person up within the next 2 songs- depending if I've already loaded the next singer's song or not- If I have the next singer's disc in my hands I'll switch it with the person whose slip disappeared's sond and after he sings restart the rotation where I left off. Of course I will only do that if I actually remember them giving me the slip, otherwise I tell them write it down and hand it in.

[SteveWalker]

Hi danny_g,

I haven't seen to many KJ's who are quite that efficient as you describe yourself to be. That's great! I see some KJ's who put music on between songs and when you get to the stage they just keep playing the music. Is this fun or annoying? I think you should keep the singers moving throught the rotation and be serious - no room to cut up and have fun. Ha! Singers come to sing and we should be considerate of that fact and keep it moving. However, you are there to provide entertainment for everyone in the establishment so taking it too seriously is also boring!

Now if you hand me a slip or CDG when you come up, I can have it playing in 30 seconds. Is that fast enough? I really don't want to have a pile of CDG's that belong to the singers to be responsible for so please bring it up when you're called to sing. I'll never have a misunderstanding about where someones slip is, or heaven forbid where someone's CDG is.

Finally, when you get the Hoster program going on the PC, the singer could tell you the title and you can search for it and have it playing in 15 seconds. Is this fast enough?

Alot of things are changing and we can benefit from the change if we're willing to change with the times!

Steve

[Rickyokie]

I have to agree with danny. I have always used and love the slip method. For me it is the only way to go.

It is easier for me to use slips so I can keep the rotation clean and regularly toss out singers that leave the club without having to black out a list.
I also never use bumper music, I do and expect my employees to have at least 2-3 CDG's out and ready to go when the song ends, you should have already double checked the Number and the Title of the song against the CDG you pulled out...so there is No dead air! if it is wrong fix it, don't skip them or call them up to fix it, unless you just can't figure it out!
You should have already pushed eject at the song end Before you do anything else and as you are congratulating the previous singer, the next CDG is going into the player, you call up the next singer as it is queing up and starting ..if need be, you can always pause it to wait for the singer, I USAULLY don't as I use it to get them off their Butts! Push play, Tops this should take 15 seconds, unless you have to wait for the next singer, ...then put the CDG you just used away, and pull out the next one.

My rotation works like this: My shows all start at 9:30. Song
books are out at 9:15 and not before, so I am not harrased while setting up the equipment.
I will usually have 6-10 slips turned in by the time I actually start the show. I will mark the first one with a BIG 1 and go from there.
I put New singers at the END of the line untill 11pm. AFTER 11pm all new singers are introduced into the line from wherever we are in line at 11pm, and every other song after that, (NEW singer...Old singer)untill you reach the first new singer you put in at 11. By then most have sung 1 time if not twice anyways.

By this time the rotation is about 45 minutes to an hour or more, depending on the night. I always tell the NEW singers that get there after 11, that it will be an Hour before they get to sing again!
So now I have 2 1/2 hrs left. I will play like this with 20-30 singers untill 1am...Then at 1am I put ALL the BOOKS away and put the slips away. I keep out My Business cards and Broshures AND THAT IS IT ..NO MORE REQUESTS!! This gives me a chance to take care of the people that have spent the better part of the night with ME, and Bar hoppers that show up at 1am or later DO NOT GET TO SIGN UP AT ALL...EVER!

I did this because of the fact that I did at one time always let new people sing no matter what time it was, untill 1:30 But even some of my regulars would take advantage of it and barhop, then show up at 1 or 1:30 and expect me to let them sing!
It made me crazy!! SO, I took drastic measures and devised this way of operating my rotations. I have been doing this now for 8 years and I have not had to many people complain, unless they were already drunk, ...well I didn't want them to spit all over my Mic anyways, so it didn't matter if they got too upset.

One thing you have to understand though, is that MY shows deal with 70% of my clientele being College crowd, NOT middle age or older $6.50 a drink sippers, these are $5.00 pitcher Drown night types. This works for me because of the people I deal with.

It take concentration and a little planning but once you do it it comes as second nature and you have to pay attention to your audience as to who is who. This is a really BIG part of the show. People love it when they walk up to hand you a slip and you address them by name BEFORE they give you their slip.
"He remembered me! I must have made a good impression"

I don't bump people up in line ever ...LOL even post it as such on my website if you care to look. OR take Bribes to do it. I turned down 50 bucks just last Friday!

Rickyokie

[SteveWalker]

Well done Rickyokie. Sounds like you have a very well planned format for your karaoke show. Do the singers like alternating after 11 PM? You know at least half of my singers bring their own CDG's to the show and their very good singers. Do you have alot of singers that bring CDG's?

Keep up the good work,
Steve