Key Change With Microstudio

[WaltR]

I'm trying to change the key in several songs and with the key changes, make a cdg disk. Everytime I try this, the cdg disk I make has the song back to the original key. Isn't version 4.22 capable of this task or is it me doing something wrong?

Walt

[ddouglass]

The key change in Microstudio is just for play and does not save to the song file. It does record in the changed key if you use that feature, but the recorded song is audio only (wma).

[Skybird74]

Originally Posted by WaltR

I'm trying to change the key in several songs and with the key changes, make a cdg disk. Everytime I try this, the cdg disk I make has the song back to the original key. Isn't version 4.22 capable of this task or is it me doing something wrong?

Walt

You need to get "Keywrite" to change the key & then create your disk with MicroStudio.

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

You need to get "Keywrite" to change the key & then create your disk with MicroStudio.

Thank you Skybird74. I was aware of that and should have included it in my post. I was hoping there was a way to do this without running through another program. Maybe I'll put this request in as a new feature.

Thanks,

Walt

[Skybird74]

When you add Keyrite, you see an extra Tab at the top of MicroStudio, so in essence, it becomes part of MS. If all the add-ons are included, then MS would be more expensive. This way each person can purchase just the programs they use. Not everyone cares about key changes. I know I couldn't live without it.

[ddouglass]

Walt, they are not going to add that to MS because they do have Keyrite. They also give those who do like to manipulate the songs a choice to buy all 4 programs (Microsoft, Keyrite, Vogone, and KHPro) at a discount.

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Walt, they are not going to add that to MS because they do have Keyrite. They also give those who do like to manipulate the songs a choice to buy all 4 programs (Microsoft, Keyrite, Vogone, and KHPro) at a discount.

Thank you. I understand that and have all of the programs.

Walt

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Walt, they are not going to add that to MS because they do have Keyrite. They also give those who do like to manipulate the songs a choice to buy all 4 programs (Microsoft, Keyrite, Vogone, and KHPro) at a discount.

I do have all the programs and keep them updated even though I rarely use any besides Holster. Key change is incorporated into Hoster, and to some degree Microstudio. So why not eliminate a step and allow to use Microstudio to change the key before you place the song into the write list. Why do this in Keyrite and then move the change into Microstudion to do what would be a simple, efficient task. It alreadly allows you to change the key for playing purposes. Imangine if we had to use Keyrite in Holster to change a song in our playlist or more importantly in the Singers List. To incorporate this function into Micorstudio would not eliminate the need for the Keyrite program. If there was fear of losing the income of the Keyrite program, it could be setup to only run in Microstudio if we had the Keyrite program.

Walt

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by WaltR

I do have all the programs and keep them updated even though I rarely use any besides Holster. Key change is incorporated into Hoster, and to some degree Microstudio. So why not eliminate a step and allow to use Microstudio to change the key before you place the song into the write list. Why do this in Keyrite and then move the change into Microstudion to do what would be a simple, efficient task. It alreadly allows you to change the key for playing purposes. Imangine if we had to use Keyrite in Holster to change a song in our playlist or more importantly in the Singers List. To incorporate this function into Micorstudio would not eliminate the need for the Keyrite program. If there was fear of losing the income of the Keyrite program, it could be setup to only run in Microstudio if we had the Keyrite program.

Walt

The Key change in Hoster and Microstudio are temporary and only for the one play time. As far as the key change in the Singers Database that is just a setting for the individual and not a permanent change. The Key Change in Keyrite is a permanent one that alters the song after you save it in Keyrite.
Even if you use Keyrite from within Microstudio, you must save the change in Keyrite and then add the changed song to Microstudio's Write list to burn it.

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

The Key change in Hoster and Microstudio are temporary and only for the one play time. As far as the key change in the Singers Database that is just a setting for the individual and not a permanent change. The Key Change in Keyrite is a permanent one that alters the song after you save it in Keyrite.
Even if you use Keyrite from within Microstudio, you must save the change in Keyrite and then add the changed song to Microstudio's Write list to burn it.

Ok, let me try to explain what I am trying to do. I should probably start a new thread but since this is related I'll give it a go. In Microstudion I selected a song that I have in Hoster. I needed to get this particular song down more than the 5 steps Hoster provides. What I ended up doing was using Keyrite in Microstudio and dropped the key 5 steps. I saved the result. I then recalled it again in Keyrite. The song was now 5 steps lower. I then dropped it 2 more steps to give me the 7 steps down I was looking for. I had hoped to import this final result back into Hoster. So far I have not been able to figure this out because Hoster will not import a kma file from the harddrive or at least I haven't figured out how to do it. The only other way I know that may work is if I burned the song on a disk and then try to import it into Hoster that way, which I haven't tried as of yet. My hopes were to do this in as few steps as possible which presently it appears I can't do. I realize that dropping a song that low isn't often needed and comes with some undesirable results, depending on the song, but there are times I need this. To carry this out a little further, let me explain. I have a couple of singers that request songs down 6 or 7 steps and some bring there disk with them. I can drop the song down 5 steps in Hoster then drop it 2 more with my external mixer. The problem is the result isn't always the same as the singer was expecting. Some karaoke players have the ability to drop or raise keys further than Hoster allows. The problem I have when dropping the song in Hoster then again with an external machine, it isn't always where the singer wants the key because Hoster drops the key in half step intervals I believe and some machines drop them in whole step intervals (I may have this backwards). I have two machines of different models made by the same company and when a song is dropped or raised they aren't the same key on both of the machines. They are identical in the neutral position but when changing the keys these machines differ so the 7 steps down I was seeking does not necessarily match what the singer was looking for. Hope this isn't to confusing but at this point I think I am confusing myself. Wow.

Walt

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by WaltR

Ok, let me try to explain what I am trying to do. I should probably start a new thread but since this is related I'll give it a go. In Microstudion I selected a song that I have in Hoster. I needed to get this particular song down more than the 5 steps Hoster provides. What I ended up doing was using Keyrite in Microstudio and dropped the key 5 steps. I saved the result. I then recalled it again in Keyrite. The song was now 5 steps lower. I then dropped it 2 more steps to give me the 7 steps down I was looking for. I had hoped to import this final result back into Hoster. So far I have not been able to figure this out because Hoster will not import a kma file from the harddrive or at least I haven't figured out how to do it. The only other way I know that may work is if I burned the song on a disk and then try to import it into Hoster that way, which I haven't tried as of yet. My hopes were to do this in as few steps as possible which presently it appears I can't do. I realize that dropping a song that low isn't often needed and comes with some undesirable results, depending on the song, but there are times I need this. To carry this out a little further, let me explain. I have a couple of singers that request songs down 6 or 7 steps and some bring there disk with them. I can drop the song down 5 steps in Hoster then drop it 2 more with my external mixer. The problem is the result isn't always the same as the singer was expecting. Some karaoke players have the ability to drop or raise keys further than Hoster allows. The problem I have when dropping the song in Hoster then again with an external machine, it isn't always where the singer wants the key because Hoster drops the key in half step intervals I believe and some machines drop them in whole step intervals (I may have this backwards). I have two machines of different models made by the same company and when a song is dropped or raised they aren't the same key on both of the machines. They are identical in the neutral position but when changing the keys these machines differ so the 7 steps down I was seeking does not necessarily match what the singer was looking for. Hope this isn't to confusing but at this point I think I am confusing myself. Wow.

Walt

Walt,
I need a little bit of time to clarify this, but if I am not mistaken, I think that in both cases they are the same. In other word the machinces that say they have whole steps are actually half steps on the musical scale. If you are going from a key of C to a key of D you would go +2 on Hoster and the machine, because there is a C Sharp step in between. Consider that there are 12 notes (steps) in one octave. If you drop a song 7 "whole steps" according to what they are saying, then that would be 14 steps in Hoster or more than an octave. That can't be right.
As far as the differences between sounds of the changes that is going to happen, because of differences in electronics components or software code, depending on what type of karaoke "machine" you are talking about.
If they have a disc copy of the song with the key change they want sounding right to them and you have that song already on your computer then you should be able to just import it as a "Custom Assembly" brand so you can destinguish it changed. Just don't import any of their's that you don't already own.

[Skybird74]

Walt, if you're like me you probably don't know the difference between a "C" & a "D". Many "real musicians" like Dale have explained these 6 steps to me this way - Because 6 steps is an "Octave, when a singer comes up & asks for something up or down 6 steps, I simply tell them to play in it's natural key & then use their "high or low" voice, accordingly. The average karaoke singer doesn't understand "keys" any better than I do but may have a good ear to sing on key, so this works without a lengthy explanation. And they usually thank me, too!

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by Skybird74

Walt, if you're like me you probably don't know the difference between a "C" & a "D". Many "real musicians" like Dale have explained these 6 steps to me this way - Because 6 steps is an "Octave, when a singer comes up & asks for something up or down 6 steps, I simply tell them to play in it's natural key & then use their "high or low" voice, accordingly. The average karaoke singer doesn't understand "keys" any better than I do but may have a good ear to sing on key, so this works without a lengthy explanation. And they usually thank me, too!

Skybird,

Thanks for your input but I do understand the difference between keys. Working as a professional KJ, I have a responsibility to try to accomodate my singers to the best of my ability and what is reasonable. I know that many are novices but many are very good and they know what key they need to sing in to cover the range of the song and give their best performance possible. To tell them to sing an octave lower or higher would be a grave injustice to them. If they know enough to bring their own disk or request key changes they obviously know they can't sing the song to their satifaction or with confidence in the normal key. I sing when I do my shows and I change the key to songs that I know will provide me with the best performance. If I go to another KJ's show and I decide to sing, I would only do so if I knew the key was going to be changed to my satisfaction. Please keep in mind, I am not talking about those singers that we all have attend our shows that can't carry a tune in a bucket. I am talking about people that are decent singers. Key change is a great tool and I know it has limitations. I was just explaining what I was trying to do to make the changes needed.

Thanks again,

Walt

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Walt,
I need a little bit of time to clarify this, but if I am not mistaken, I think that in both cases they are the same. In other word the machinces that say they have whole steps are actually half steps on the musical scale. If you are going from a key of C to a key of D you would go +2 on Hoster and the machine, because there is a C Sharp step in between. Consider that there are 12 notes (steps) in one octave. If you drop a song 7 "whole steps" according to what they are saying, then that would be 14 steps in Hoster or more than an octave. That can't be right.
As far as the differences between sounds of the changes that is going to happen, because of differences in electronics components or software code, depending on what type of karaoke "machine" you are talking about.
If they have a disc copy of the song with the key change they want sounding right to them and you have that song already on your computer then you should be able to just import it as a "Custom Assembly" brand so you can destinguish it changed. Just don't import any of their's that you don't already own.

Douglass,
I am talking about 7 half steps. But my point is that two machines I have from Acesonic does not have the same intervals as each other. In other words, if I use key change on one machine, say 2 down, the other machine at 2 down is not the same key as the first one. I know that some machines are whole step intervals and some are half step. I understand the difference in sounds due to the electronics which is really the most noticed in backround vocals. If you raise or lower the songs to much, the back round vocals don't sound realistic. I understand that I can import the cd but keep in mind as I mentioned, hoster is 5 and I need 6 or 7 in some cases. I can get their buy using key change as I explained above but it is to time consuming to do it on the job if I need to go lower than hoster's capability. I was just explaining what I was trying to achieve and how I was going about it. This is probably very unusual but I run into these request ocassionaly. I have a couple of singers that need key changes down much more than most. If hoster could drop 7 instead of 5, I wouldn't even be talking about this. I am sure MTU has a reason to limit it to 5 steps and I would guess that it is due to the effects on backround singers. I wish all the manufactures of karaoke equipment would follow the same standard with key changes. I think they should all be in half step intervals.

Walt

[ddouglass]

Here is how you do what you are trying to do:

1. Use Songverter to convert the KMA file to either BIN or MP3+G. Do not delete the original.
2. Use the converted file in Keyrite to take it down 7 as you did before. When you save it make sure you change the title to have something to identify it as modified.
3. Import the file into Hoster. I would add it to a Custom Assembly to keep it separate from the original.

You can request in New Features under Hoster for the Key Change to be Extended, but as you say changing a song that far is really pushing it in quality even for an electronic key changer. However they make take another look at it if you request it.

[WaltR]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Here is how you do what you are trying to do:

1. Use Songverter to convert the KMA file to either BIN or MP3+G. Do not delete the original.
2. Use the converted file in Keyrite to take it down 7 as you did before. When you save it make sure you change the title to have something to identify it as modified.
3. Import the file into Hoster. I would add it to a Custom Assembly to keep it separate from the original.

You can request in New Features under Hoster for the Key Change to be Extended, but as you say changing a song that far is really pushing it in quality even for an electronic key changer. However they make take another look at it if you request it.

Great! Thank you. I'll give it a try but after reading your post I know this will work. Thanks again!

Walt