Recording Singers - the LEGAL way

[Island Extreme]

I think recording singers is an incredible addition - I'm sure SOME of you have tried it.
I purchased a real time CD recorder but never used it because I know there is a legality issue. Does anyone know how much that is and who to pay it to?

If anyone IS doing this. Do you pass along the cost or add a little bit to the cost each recording???

I really would LOVE to add this dimention to my shows...LEGALLY!

[Glen Goergen]

Originally Posted by Island Extreme

I think recording singers is an incredible addition - I'm sure SOME of you have tried it.
I purchased a real time CD recorder but never used it because I know there is a legality issue. Does anyone know how much that is and who to pay it to?

If anyone IS doing this. Do you pass along the cost or add a little bit to the cost each recording???

I really would LOVE to add this dimention to my shows...LEGALLY!

Maybe I'm a dummy or I just don't understand your question or concept. Here goes :

If I attend your show and sing a song and you provide a way for me to obtain a recording of my performance, I'm thrilled, you gave me the option, you provided the service, I got the end product, what legal issue are we talking about? You're not talking about mastering a cut for me to duplicat for mass sales. Are you thinking of something I'm too dense to be aware of ?
Regards
Glen

[Island Extreme]

Yes you are reading the question correctly.

OK it's REALLY easy for me to hook up this CD recorder and record people. I have NOT done it yet because it is DEFINATELY a violation of the copyright of the recording (performance) and the song itself. I know that for SURE! Even if you are not mass duplicating it. That would be a bigger issue!!!

My big problem is... I would LOVE to provide this service. If I can pay whoever I need to do this somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 cents a song it would be feasible for me to do. My problem is I have no idea who to even ask (and had bigger fish to fry lately anyway)

I was hoping someone had already done this or knows something but I haven't had any responses yet.

[bobcox- with the Lord]

recording your singers is Copying Music you do not own the rights to. ascap would have to be realy knitpicking to bother you for this (and they will) also if you charge your cust for this then you are selling copy protected music.Bob

[Glen Goergen]

Originally Posted by Island Extreme

Yes you are reading the question correctly.

OK it's REALLY easy for me to hook up this CD recorder and record people. I have NOT done it yet because it is DEFINATELY a violation of the copyright of the recording (performance) and the song itself. I know that for SURE! Even if you are not mass duplicating it. That would be a bigger issue!!!

My big problem is... I would LOVE to provide this service. If I can pay whoever I need to do this somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 cents a song it would be feasible for me to do. My problem is I have no idea who to even ask (and had bigger fish to fry lately anyway)

I was hoping someone had already done this or knows something but I haven't had any responses yet.

DUH!!!!!!!! ok I get it now the copyright issue. Well, if I bring you the song that is on a disc that I have purchased and ask you to record me singing that song, perhaps that would be covered by the fair use clause of international copyright law. BUT ! I would ask that question of a copyright attorney to be sure.

Years ago I got into a big battle with Kinkos because I had patterns for Stained glass Windows that I had purchased, and of course they were copyrighted. The kinkos clerks had little knowledge of copyright law.

As I had purchased those patterns The Fair use clause gave me the right to enlarge and duplicate those patterns for my own use, even though the end result of my work was the sale of the windows I created from those patterns.
I won !
But as I said ask the proper attorney, because I just kin barely speel atorneey
Hey you might also check with a recording studio and see if they might give you some information, after all they have folks using other folks material all the time no?
Warm regards
Glen

[George]

This scenario is covered in this article by KAPA.

They claim you can't even make a back-up of a recording, like you can software.

I wouldn't be surprised if their answer to making a recording to GIVE to a singer might not be right on, however.

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.html

George

ADMIN NOTE: Also read this page on research MTU paid for to get a legal opinion on this subject, which is totally at odds with KAPA's statments.

[Glen Goergen]

Originally Posted by George

This scenario is covered in this article by KAPA.

They claim you can't even make a back-up of a recording, like you can software.

I wouldn't be surprised if their answer to making a recording to GIVE to a singer might not be right on, however.

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.html

George

WOW Thanks George I thought this was very interesting :

"
If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the machine manufacturer and the music provider. These rights do not extend to the owner of the machine, to load songs from other manufacturers on the hard drive player. Copying the discs on to a hard drive is still copying the discs. Legally, it is absolutely no different than burning a copy of the discs. In order to copy your discs on to your hard drive, you have to have the written permission of the company that produced the discs and owns the copyrights."

Once again I am now lost lol or do not understand the purpose/use of hoster, or does the laptop from mtu come with loaded, licensed media? And what about adding new media? Now I am totally confused!!!!
Regards
Glen

[Garry A. Leslie]

Hello All,
The copyright angle comes up all the time.
In theory you shouldn't even be allowed to sing someone elses song, even in the bath!!!
Karaoke wouldn't even exist if all the laws were followed strictly.
We don't even know which companies own copyright to the material they sell.
That's been debated often enough in these forums.
I personally would record a singer and give them a copy The cost is a few pennies to yourself, so you wouldn't be making a profit and lets face it where is that singer going to play it?
Somebody eles disc is on a par with showing home movies or photographs, nobody wants to see them..
Regards from across the pond.
Garry

[S. Parks]

It's simple, sell them the media, and give them the recording. I've seen this approach taken, but I'm sure there's still some legal holes to punch in this approach. When in doubt, leave it out!

[George]

"If I am hosting a Karaoke show, may I record the singers and give them a copy of their performance? In addition, may I charge for the service of copying their performance?
In order to do this, you must first get the licensing rights from the Karaoke copyright owner. Contact the Karaoke music company that produces the music that you use and ask for their licensing department. Many Karaoke music companies grant blanket licenses for a nominal monthly fee to use their music and record a copy for the individual singer. You cannot record the singer(s) without this licensing permission from the Karaoke copyright holder. Recording the singer and the music without permission is copyright infringement."

That's what KAPA says about it.

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by Glen Goergen

If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the machine manufacturer and the music provider. These rights do not extend to the owner of the machine, to load songs from other manufacturers on the hard drive player. Copying the discs on to a hard drive is still copying the discs. Legally, it is absolutely no different than burning a copy of the discs. In order to copy your discs on to your hard drive, you have to have the written permission of the company that produced the discs and owns the copyrights."

This statement from KAPA is assuming that you have purchased a "loaded" system such as a CAVS-199. Since that isn't the case with those using Hoster, then this shouldn't apply to us.

If you go by the letter of the law we should only be doing Karaoke at our own homes and absolutely privately (no performing for your friends ) My guess is DJ's would be illegal too. Do the producers really think they can survive on what individuals would purchase without the KJs and DJs? Talk about cutting the branch off while you are out on that limb!

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Glen Goergen

"If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the machine manufacturer and the music provider. These rights do not extend to the owner of the machine, to load songs from other manufacturers on the hard drive player. Copying the discs on to a hard drive is still copying the discs. Legally, it is absolutely no different than burning a copy of the discs. In order to copy your discs on to your hard drive, you have to have the written permission of the company that produced the discs and owns the copyrights."

Once again I am now lost lol or do not understand the purpose/use of hoster, or does the laptop from mtu come with loaded, licensed media? And what about adding new media? Now I am totally confused!!!!

This is KAPA's propaganda. MTU hired a law firm in San Francisco to study the Lexus/Nexus and WestLaw databases for what the courts would find regarding "format shifting" from a CDG disc to a hard drive, and performing it in a public venue.

First, there has never been a court case involving this. Thus, it is "untested" in the USA. If anyone knows of a proof case, please post it here. All research we have paid for on this subject has turned up no cases.

The PRECIDENCE that has been established is what IP Justice law firm brought to light. You can read their answers at this page. In essence, this is the results:

"The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts."


As to recording a Singer's performance and making an Audio CD for them, there is no mechanism to allow you to pay a license fee that we are aware of. In the EXACT situation presented above, if your singer brings a disc they own, and you play it and record them using your equipment, and you give them back (or even charge for your equipment, labor and a profit), their Audio CD or Karaoke CDG disc and an Audio CD with them recorded, I would be very surprised if anyone would take this to Court, and I believe the Court would rule it as "Fair Use". However, I am not a Lawyer, and this is NOT a legal ruling giving you the right to do this.

[pelletmon]

I have been doing it at my shows for over a year now.Execpt for one difference.Instead of doing cd's,I do DVD's.I set up a camera system at the club where I gig 4 nights a week.I take the audio signal out of the mixer( I would not recomend using the "on board camera mic" then take the vidio sig from the camera and bring it all into a dvd burner.I make anouncements throughout the night that if anyone would like to make a dvd of the're performance,pick 2 songs to sing(we will cue em up back to back) bring the slip to us (with 10$)and we will get you right up.I also make a point of telling folks( in a nice way) that if the buy one, as a bonus they will also get to move right to the front of the waiting list.It works as a great selling point. I get people who don't even care about the dvd.They just buy one so they can sing 2 songs back to back and sing em now.As far as the legal issues,I see myself as a photographer,filming someone for a fee.At my wedding I hired a local photographer.During the ceromony the church singer sang ava maria and he filmed it .I don't think anyone ever got sued.I am wondering though in a court of law if a "home movie"would fall under a different pretence than a coppied cd in this type of situtation.Something to consider?

[bryant]

Someone has to choose to take the time and expense to Sue.

Then they in fact could have sued if they wanted. I'm assuming most ppl at your wedding we're your friends however.

I read these posts and I think we are all trying to play lawyer here. The only real way to find out if what whoever is doing is illegal is to do, wait and see if someone sues, hire a better and more expensive lawyer, perhaps even go broke, then pray.

[pelletmon]

Your probably right Bryant.But one thing Im not gonna do is loose any sleep over it.I have enough other issues for that! P.S. How are things in Winslow? Im from Topsham (Brunswick area).