online downloads

[mindonstrike]

buykaraokedownloads.com

[George]

Don't see that there is any way to download and be legal.

One will not have the original disc on hand, and everyone seems to agree that is a requirement.

Think TOPHAND better stick with the ones that will make a custom disc... Sound Choice, Priddis, etc.

[ddouglass]

Sam, did you ever get a definate answer from them on their licensing?

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Sam, did you ever get a definate answer from them on their licensing?

I never did question them on licensing issues. I don't know enough about the subject to be able to know if there response would be on the up & up or if it were BS.
These aren't my favorite brands but they tend to get new songs out quicker than my favorite brands, so most of 'em get replaced within a month or 2. If something should come down and they are shown to be selling without proper authorization I probably won't be out to many songs or dollars.

Sam

[cartunesdj]

Tricerasoft has offerings from Karaoke Monthly, Zoom, and others.

CAVS USA has their own branded versions as well as others, although I don't recall which brand at this time.

I've used both and they are perfectly legit. Remember to save your electronic receipts.

[admin]

Originally Posted by cartunesdj

Tricerasoft has offerings from Karaoke Monthly, Zoom, and others.

CAVS USA has their own branded versions as well as others, although I don't recall which brand at this time.

I've used both and they are perfectly legit. Remember to save your electronic receipts.

I DISAGREE!!!

First, DO NOT equate legal AUDIO with legal KARAOKE. They are different formats, and everything I have heard, and paid Lawyers to research, says they are different.

DISC DISTRIBUTION rights is NOT the same as DIGITAL DOWNLOAD RIGHTS. To sell a karaoke disc is granted in the USA, but to provide digital downloads is entirely different. That... I am confident of. About 6 months ago I was discussing this with two of the most reputable Karaoke Producers in the USA. Both told me the Record Labels and others who own the copyrights are NOT granting digital download rights for Karaoke.

To our knowledge... CAVS, a Korean company, has no license to distribute or digital download music in the USA,

To our knowledge... Tricerasoft, nor the producers they sell, have the right to digital downloads in the USA. Thus, their sales are illegal. Even though they are a Canadian company, their store is in the USA. Our lawyers forced removal of all their "Video Hoster" product from the shelves in the USA as they were infringing on our REGISTERED MARK "Hoster". I know first hand.

Our legal experts say that paying CAVS or Tricerasoft for songs does NOT give you the legal right to perform them, even if you keep their invoices. I'm simply reporting what I have been told by those who know and are in touch with the Record Labels who hold the digital rights.

If I were going out doing shows, I would NOT buy digital downloaded songs because I know of no one in the USA with digital download rights to Karaoke music.

Zoom is a bootleg producer, paying no royalties from what our contacts in the UK tell us.

I'm interested why you say "they are perfectly legit." Have you written "your vendors" to get a legal statement that they do have DIGITAL DOWNLOAD RIGHTS in the USA? Maybe you should...

As to the Pro-Burn custom discs with $3.00 - $5.00 a song with a minimum charge, these are made on systems that produce discs, and the royalties are automatically captured and paid to the "legal" MCPS licensing organization in the UK. I personally am in touch with them. They SPECIFICALLY REFUSE to grant the rights for digital download, but are fully licensing to produce custom discs of songs they license.

FYI: Read the legal research MTU has paid thousands of dollars for... just so you have the very best legal answers to your questions. However, you will not find digital downloads addressed there.

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by admin

Our legal experts say that paying CAVS or Tricerasoft for songs does NOT give you the legal right to perform them, even if you keep their invoices. I'm simply reporting what I have been told by those who know and are in touch with the Record Labels who hold the digital rights.

If I were going out doing shows, I would NOT buy digital downloaded songs because I know of no one in the USA with digital download rights to Karaoke music.

Admin,
THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THIS UP!
This point is not mentioned anywhere on Trcerasoft's web site.


I have purchased hundreds of MP3+g's in good faith fron Triderasoft over the past few months with no intention of breaking any laws. I'm learning that there are alot of grey areas when it comes to the karaoke track production business in general. Until this point I believed that I was buying the rights to make money with the tracks I downloaded but I now know this is not the case.

I see where I need to aquire as many hard copies of the MP3+G files (that are still available) that I bought from Tricerasoft (and delete the rest) to be legal in the USA. Do the Karaoke Monthly CAVS MP3+G's work well in Hoster? If so I will by the MP3+G's on disc dirctly from Karaoke Monthly in the future.

Thanks!

Jim

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by admin

I know of no one in the USA with digital download rights to Karaoke music.

To be fair I emailed Tricerasoft about this issue. Here is a copy of the email:

Re:
From: TriceraSoft Support (support@tricerasoft.com)
Sent:
Fri 11/02/07 12:55 AM

To:
Jim Hall (madjimhall@hotmail.com)

Karaoke Monthly and Forever Hits are USA suppliers, Zoom and Music Factory are UK suppliers, but our licensing is world wide and backed by each manufacturers.



Jim Hall wrote:

I do not own and establishment. Do the "performance" rights I'm purchasing cover use in the United States?

Thank You

Jim Hall

---

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:24:48 -0400

From: support@tricerasoft.com

To: madjimhall@hotmail.com

Subject: Re:

Jim,

When you purchase the track you are purchasing it for "performance" (just like a CD+G disc) to entertain, we carry over the royalty to both the manufacturer and the copyright agency for the right to use the track. Performance means you get to use it to present or perform to others. This is however not related to your establishment, which should be subscribed to ASCAP/BMI or similar (this does not relate to you). You CAN NOT resell these songs - these are for your use, not for resale and only licensed for performance.

Support

Jim Hall wrote:

Hello,

I have been buying Karaoke tracks from your company and using them in the United States to entertain in bars. When I buy a Karaoke track from your company am I buying the right to make money with it in the United States?

Thank You

Jim Hall

------------------------------------------------------------

Jim

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by George

Don't see that there is any way to download and be legal.

One will not have the original disc on hand, and everyone seems to agree that is a requirement.

Think TOPHAND better stick with the ones that will make a custom disc... Sound Choice, Priddis, etc.

George,
Let's look at what the product is here. Is it the plastic disc that the song that is recorded on it, or is it the recording itself? Since a plastic disc (blank disc) is useless to a DJ or a karaoke host unless it has content on it that he can play through a PA system, I would venture to say that is is the recording we are paying for. Now there was a time when I had three formats to choose from whem I bought a recording.

1. Vinal Records

2. Eight Track Tapes

3. Cassette Tape

There was a second time when three formats were available being:

1. Vinal Records

2. Cassette Tapes

3. Compact Disc (CD's)

In the case of every format I have paid as little as $1 for a ten track recording (sometimes less). Granted these recodings were on sale BUT the fact remains that I paid $.10 OR LESS per track and have the right to use them legaly because I have a receipt proving where I bought the recording.

Never did I feel I was doing something "illegal" because the recording I bought was a CD (digital format) as apposed to a tape or record (analog format). I paid for the recording therefor I have the right to use it to make money, everybody got paid. They may not have been paid as much as someone who produce a Beatles recording BUT they did get paid.

When I pay for an upgrade to Hoster or any of the other progam that MTU provides, am I illegal because I downloaded it and didn't buy a plastic disc with the upgrade burned into it? I've upgraded many times and not once have the police knocked on my door. This is because MTU gives us permission to (and instructs us to) accquire their program upgrades in the manner. They suggest we downlaod the upagrade THEN burn it to a disc. Does this make MTU an illegal company?

If a company (say Karaoke Monthly) give us permission to pay for and downlaod (and use) thier recordings, it's no different than a company like MTU giving us permission to pay for and downlaod (and use) their progarams.

I have to agree with cartunesdj, keeping track of your reciepts is crucial but so it is with all aspects of business.

If a person is uncomfortable downlaoding and buying MP3+G karaoke tracks then I advise they don't do it BUT I just don't see where it's illegal if the tracks are being purchased for $.99 or more. It's like the difference between a vinal recording and a CD, same recording - different format. Disc or downlaod, same recording - different format. To quote Bob Dylan, "Oh the times they are a changin'".

It's All Good!

Jim

[Beavis]

Plastic will be a thing of the past when it comes to digital !

[George]

Per Jim.

"Let's look at what the product is here. Is it the plastic disc that the song that is recorded on it, or is it the recording itself?"

Apparantly you missed the point completely.

For more background on what the KJ's are expected to have in their possession at a show by the goon squads, suggest you search the forums for posts by ADMIN and others on the subject.

There's a tremendous difference in using copywrittem material for personal use or public performance.

The subject has been well discussed on the forums.

[muzicman144]

Vynl, plastic, digital, or live for a paid performance. What is the difference?
Why isn't it illegal for a live band to use copyright music for a paid performance??? For the life of me, i can't see the difference. The general census a few post ago that a musican making tracks on a home recorder, transferring them to a computer file such as Hoster and be used as backup as he plays a guitar was illegal. I use karaoke tracks for backup for a one man show and i have been led to believe it is illegal to copy tracks and use them on a paid performance. Now i'm aware that a club is responsible for fees to allow copyrighted music to be played in their club, if this covers the "live band", why doesn't it cover the rest of us???
Seems these legalities are as inconclusive as politics in DC.

muzicman

[George]

It has been posted many times on these forums that ASCAP, BMI, KAPA, and whoever, require that the KJ's have the original discs in their possession as proof of "ownership", because they are using the material for public performances. "ownership" meaning you have legally purchased the right to use the material on the disc. You actually own nothing, just as with most any other licensed software.

The penalty for not having the proof of "ownership" that satisfies them is confiscation of all equipment, including anything at home that relates to the operation.

ADMIN NOTE: The ONLY way anything can be confiscated is AFTER a US Marshall or other Federal Agent is given a court order by a Judge to come get your stuff. BMI, ASCAP, SECA, etc. have NO LEGAL RIGHTS to take anything from you. PERIOD!

Regarding downloaded files, I believe it would be very prudent to avoid them if the material is going to be used for public performance until such time as these organizations state in clearly understood language that they will accept a printed receipt in lieu of physical proof of ownership, or as in Dale's illustration, the vendor grants permission in writing to use the material in public performances.

Until that day I don't believe the risk involved is worth the few dollars saved, and I think new people seeking advice on these forums should be so advised, and not be led down the garden path, no matter how innocently.

That's where I was coming from in my first post, but thought it might sink in better if the folks researched it for themselves, and see for the most part that it was not just my personal opinion..

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

Why isn't it illegal for a live band to use copyright music for a paid performance???

musicmann144,
If I recall correctly, you posted a question about this in the past and the conclution was that a musician can not produce copies of copywrited material and perfom them legaly. By doing this none of the producers, writes etc... get paid. If the band is using tracks that they paid for (legal karaoke tracks), it means all got paid which I believe gives the band the right to use them as backgroud tracks in clubs. The ASCAP/BMI/SESAC fees would be covered by the club. If the band is using the karaoke tracks to make money anywhere but in a club and have not made arrangements with the writers royalties groups, they are using the tracks in an illegal manner.

Just trying to keep the diecussion moving forward.

Jim

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by George

Per Jim.

"Let's look at what the product is here. Is it the plastic disc that the song that is recorded on it, or is it the recording itself?"

Apparantly you missed the point completely.

For more background on what the KJ's are expected to have in their possession at a show by the goon squads, suggest you search the forums for posts by ADMIN and others on the subject.

There's a tremendous difference in using copywrittem material for personal use or public performance.

The subject has been well discussed on the forums.

Actually George I see many points pretaining to the use of copywrited material and the digital age. I'm sorry if my response caused any confusion but I have to agree with Beavis that plastic (and paper) will soon be a thing of the past when it comes to the distribution of copywrited material. Mac's ipod system is an idication of where the idustry is going. We can run from it or we can embrace it but the digital distribution of copywrited material is already a reality, thousands of legal MP3's are sold every day. Just as the CD I buy to make money with is the same CD that a consumer buys for peraonal use, so it is with any digital format that I pruchase and use to make money.

As a professional club DJ and entertainer for over twenty five years I have been buying and using copywrited material THAT I PAID FOR to make money with. I have never been visited by "The Goon Squad" but I recall reading on this forum that we should not let anybody shut down our legal show without a warrent and a sheriff. If this is the case (and I believe it is) the goons by themselves pose no threat to being shut down or having our equitment confiscated, if we are as legal as possible and we don't let them push us around!

The issue you are speaking of is the ability to prove to "the goons" that we paid for the recordings we are using to make money. If proof of ownership that "satisfies" them is such an issue to "the goons" that they can't wait until the next day for me to provide it, I would start carring copies of my receipts as apposed to carring my disc. I carry neither putting my faith in GOD, our justice system and on the fact that I AM NOT INTENTIONALLY DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL! If a person is scared of 'the goons" then buy those discs and tote that plastic. Personaly I have no use for the plastic discs, the plastic cases or the paper inserts that come with CD's, I only need the recordings! "The goons" pose no threat to me because I can provide proof of purchase for every track I use to make money with, karaoke or otherwise. "I AIN'T SCARED!"

These are my personal opinions and I have no intention of getting anybody in trouble. My choice of action is based on my research (this forum has provided much of my recent research) and my experience. I am as legal as a person can be and I am not intimidated by "The Goon Squad". I am willing to do whatever it take to be as legal as possible and will work with anybody that will work with me BUT I refuse to act like I'm doing something illegal when I am not.

I hope I didn't offend you George. If so I appologize.


Jim

[George]

Originally Posted by George

There's a tremendous difference in using copywrittem material for personal use or public performance.

...therein lies the confusion, and most of the legitimate marketing thrusts referred to here are at the individual user.

Thanks ADMIN for the input.

[ddouglass]

The difficult I see with downloading from the internet (not just karaoke or audio) is knowing whether the company is legit. In the case of MTU and other software companies it is easy enough because the product is theirs, thus copyrighted by them, and sold directly from them.
If I can order music files directly from the original producer (Sound Choice, Chartbuster, etc.) then again they have the copyright and distribution rights. I am guaranteed that if there is a question of validity (license to reproduce) it falls on that producer, not me.
The question then comes down to "resellers" who are selling the product second hand. Do they have a license/agreement with the producer to sell that item for download? This is where it gets tricky to determine their legality. Personally, I will never order on line downloaded music files unless I know that the company is a direct producer or an authorized reseller of that producer.

[madjim- with the Lord]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Do they have a license/agreement with the producer to sell that item for download?

Dale,
This is what the only company I buy MP3+G's from has posted on their web site:

"This MP3+G Collection is legally licensed for distribution from Karaoke Monthly, ZOOM Entertainments, and Forever Hits."

If this staement is proved to be a lie, I will take the hit and delete all of the tracks I purchased from them in a effort to stay legal. Until this is proven I will take them at their word that they are selling the tracks legaly.

I believe that a everybody should be VERY careful when purchasing karaoke files over the internet but I don't believe they should be forced to buy a dying format. Remember "Sound Tubes", "Vinal Records", "Reel To Reels" and "Eight Track Tapes"? All of these formats dissapeared because of advances in technology as discs will one day.

I recenty paid $4 per track ($70 for fifteen songs) for a custom disc from Sound Choice and IT WILL NOT RUN IN MY CD+G PLAYER! Thank GOD I could import the tracks into Hoster as KMA files and use them. If other companiers are selling their tracks for as little as $.99 each, where is the other $3 going? Sound Choice doesn't want to hurt their "Cash Cow" so they are tyring to scare us into using a format that they can't even get to work consistantly. (I'm sure they are using the cheapest blank disc they can find.)

I agree with you Dale that we should only deal with reputable companies and we should research them before we purchase tracks from them. I contacted the copmany I buy MP3+G's from and they assured me that they have the right to sell the karaoke tracks they make available. I don't see where I can do more.

If I can order music files directly from the original producer (Sound Choice, Chartbuster, etc.) then again they have the copyright and distribution rights.

Just to make a point Dale, how do we know they have the copyright and ditribution rights? Because they tell us they do, just like the company I buy MP3+G's from tells us they have the right to legaly sell us the karaoke tracks they make available. We can only take them at their word and deal with them in good faith.

Disscution about this subject is needed for the karaoke industry as a whole to move forward. We will adapt as we have to. Thanks for the great response!

Jim