Professional Musicians

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by mindonstrike

As long as the club pays their ascap/bmi etc fees AND he doesn't display written lyrics in public, he's good to go.

Sam

Using that theory, i could use any music file i want as i also do not display written lyrics to the public. I do not do karaoke shows, but I do a show just he does, use pre-recorded tracks just as he does, usually from a karaoke disc. If i burned a track from someone else's karaoke disc and used it, is this legal if i don't display written lyrics to the public. Haven't done so to this point, but if it is legal, i certainly will do so.

muzicman144

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

Using that theory, i could use any music file i want as i also do not display written lyrics to the public. I do not do karaoke shows, but I do a show just he does, use pre-recorded tracks just as he does, usually from a karaoke disc. If i burned a track from someone else's karaoke disc and used it, is this legal if i don't display written lyrics to the public. Haven't done so to this point, but if it is legal, i certainly will do so.

muzicman144

No... Your earlier post indicated your friend was playing an instrument and/or using tracks he created with his instruments.
I'm sure this is an overly simplified answer for a complicated subject (lawyers make up a good chunk of the music industry) but essentially, along with the writer of the music, the performers of the music are entitled to royalties (In this case typicly it would be the karaoke manufactuer), so if you use a track copied from someone else disk, both the music writer and the performers-karaoke companies are not getting their share of the royalties that they would if you purchased your own.

Again probably overly simplified but I think fairly accurate.

Sam

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by mindonstrike

No... Your earlier post indicated your friend was playing an instrument and/or using tracks he created with his instruments.
I'm sure this is an overly simplified answer for a complicated subject (lawyers make up a good chunk of the music industry) but essentially, along with the writer of the music, the performers of the music are entitled to royalties (In this case typicly it would be the karaoke manufactuer), so if you use a track copied from someone else disk, both the music writer and the performers-karaoke companies are not getting their share of the royalties that they would if you purchased your own.

Again probably overly simplified but I think fairly accurate.

Sam

I do believe this is an overly simplified theory. Not trying to argue here.
Just would really like to know the correct answer.

Again, We are basically doing the same thing. This musician is using self generated tracks on a computer just as i do, except i have bought the tracks i use. He is not the original song writer nor composer. No one is getting royalties from his use. The clubs i play at pay their fees to the music industry, just as they do when he plays, and i use tracks of my own, do not display written lyrics for the public to see. If your answer is correct (i'm not saying it isn't) then no one gets royalties from entertainers using self generated tracks, using a computer to play the files on the Hoster Program, or any other software of this type.
Seems to me this entertainer and i do the same thing, except the music industry gets royalties from my use and none from his use.
I just can't seem to get it through this thick head where the difference is in the legal reasoning, if there is such a thing.

muzicman144

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

I do believe this is an overly simplified theory. Not trying to argue here.
Just would really like to know the correct answer.

Again, We are basically doing the same thing. This musician is using self generated tracks on a computer just as i do, except i have bought the tracks i use. He is not the original song writer nor composer. No one is getting royalties from his use. The clubs i play at pay their fees to the music industry, just as they do when he plays, and i use tracks of my own, do not display written lyrics for the public to see. If your answer is correct (i'm not saying it isn't) then no one gets royalties from entertainers using self generated tracks, using a computer to play the files on the Hoster Program, or any other software of this type.
Seems to me this entertainer and i do the same thing, except the music industry gets royalties from my use and none from his use.
I just can't seem to get it through this thick head where the difference is in the legal reasoning, if there is such a thing.

muzicman144

You asked

If i burned a track from someone else's karaoke disc and used it, is this legal if i don't display written lyrics to the public

In this scenario it is not legal - no different than using the burnt disk for a karaoke show. If you own the original then yes it is legal.

If you recreate the music in your home studio and use that recreation in your performance then the music industry gets there royalties from ascap, bmi, etc. Those associations pool all those fees and split it up based on some mathematical formula and pay it to the song writers (original artist get some as well since this covers DJ's also). If you use a karaoke track then along with the association fees the song writers will get a royalty from the songs on that disk just as the songwriters and original artists will get a cut from the music CD the DJ purchases for his music.

Sam

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by mindonstrike

You asked In this scenario it is not legal - no different than using the burnt disk for a karaoke show. If you own the original then yes it is legal.

If you recreate the music in your home studio and use that recreation in your performance then the music industry gets there royalties from ascap, bmi, etc. Those associations pool all those fees and split it up based on some mathematical formula and pay it to the song writers (original artist get some as well since this covers DJ's also). If you use a karaoke track then along with the association fees the song writers will get a royalty from the songs on that disk just as the songwriters and original artists will get a cut from the music CD the DJ purchases for his music.

Sam

I understand how the royalties are distributed, but i don't believe i'm explaining my question correctly. Your response seems to only address the karaoke issue of burning some one else's disc. I'm asking why one is illegal and the other is legal when both are using copyrighted music, re-created on a computer file and used in a paid performance.

Example 1.
A musician makes his own music tracks of a copyrighted song, using his own instruments in his home studio, puts it on a computer file and uses it in a paid performance at a club that pays its music industry fees. No one gets royalties from his use of the track, only the share from fees that the club pays the industry.

Examle 2.
i buy a karaoke disc, burn a track of the copy of a copyrighted song, put it on a computer file and use it in a paid performance at the same club that pays its music industry fees. The music industry collects the club fees PLUS the royalties from my purchase of the karaoke disc for distribution to those due compensation for their copyrighted works.

Quite a bit of difference

muzicman144

[ddouglass]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

Example 1.
A musician makes his own music tracks of a copyrighted song, using his own instruments in his home studio, puts it on a computer file and uses it in a paid performance at a club that pays its music industry fees. No one gets royalties from his use of the track, only the share from fees that the club pays the industry.

This is illegal because he did not pay the license fee to reproduce the songwriter's music which is copyrighted. In order for him to be legal he would have to contact ASCAP or BMI (whoever represents the writer/copyright holder) and obtain a license to reproduce the music. This is what the Karaoke Producers have to do to create the karaoke song files.

Originally Posted by muzicman144

Examle 2.
i buy a karaoke disc, burn a track of the copy of a copyrighted song, put it on a computer file and use it in a paid performance at the same club that pays its music industry fees. The music industry collects the club fees PLUS the royalties from my purchase of the karaoke disc for distribution to those due compensation for their copyrighted works.

The only disputed part of this is the change of format (CD to HD) and that is only in dispute by some Karaoke Producers. As you say all royalties and fees have been paid so is legal until a court case is determined.

[muzicman144]

Thanks. I have thought all along my friend was illegal in the way he performed his show. I apologize that i didn't explain my question in a
better way the first time.
jim

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

This is illegal because he did not pay the license fee to reproduce the songwriter's music which is copyrighted. In order for him to be legal he would have to contact ASCAP or BMI (whoever represents the writer/copyright holder) and obtain a license to reproduce the music. This is what the Karaoke Producers have to do to create the karaoke song files.

I would disagree on this point.

These are from ASCAPS's FAQ page:

Originally Posted by ASCAP

3. What Does the ASCAP License Do?

ASCAP gives you a license to entertain your customers, guests and employees with the world's largest musical repertory. One of the greatest advantages of the ASCAP license is that it give you the right to perform ANY or ALL of the millions of the musical works in our repertory. Whether your music is live, broadcast, transmitted or played via CD's or videos, your ASCAP license covers your performances. And with one license fee, ASCAP saves you the time, expense, and burden of contacting thousands of copyright owners.

And

Originally Posted by ASCAP

5. I want to record or videotape a song or record. Do I need permission, and how do I obtain it?

If you want to make copies of, or re-record an existing record, tape or CD, you will probably need the permission of both the music publisher and the record label. A music publisher owns the song (that is, the words and music) and a record company owns the "sound recording" (that is, what you hear... the artist singing, the musicians playing, the entire production).

If you plan to hire your own musicians and singers and create an original recording of a copyrighted song, then you need the permission of only the music publisher.

ASCAP does not license recording rights. Recording rights for most publishers are represented by the Harry Fox Agency:

Unfortunately you have to contact them with specific questions but it would appear to me that #3 would give you the right play back a music track you recorded for a public performance where you will either play along or sing along as long as the venue has the ASCAP license.
#5 appears to be applicable to those who want to sell or give away a CD of their performances

As long as your recordings are just aid to your public performance and not given away or for sale, the clubs ASCAP license will cover you and no other fee's or permissions would be required.This is why it's illegal to record your karaoke singers performance and give/sell them a copy.

IMHO
Sam