rate of pay around the country.

[wackyquack]

Very well put Alan. I haven't been in business nearly as long as you but I couldn't agree more. I sing at the top of every rotation unless the rotation is ten or more singers. Then I only do requests (solo or duets). My shows average 20-25 singers each show. Always starts a little slow but by 10:30 pm things are hoppin'

You are absoultely correct, every audience and show is different and there are no absoultes.

[Monolith]

I am just starting in this area (South Jersey) and I miss the clientel I had when I was in South Carolina.

I base all of my decisions for rotation on who has been waiting the longest. I do not condone impatient patrons even so far as to remove their name from the song list or even ban them from my shows. Every name goes at the end of the rotation and does not get moved up.....because the name at the top has always been waiting the longest. I used to do the 2 old, 1 or 2 new thing but it was just too big a headache when you got flooded with people.

Having the singing order in front of the crowd makes life substantially easier (probably my favorite feature in Hoster 3.10). When somone asks when they get to sing I just point to the screen.

New singers don't really concern me too much. I let them know that the wait is pretty long and recommend that they get themselves some food or drink and arrive sooner the next time so they can get more songs in.

I have the ability to get more per night than I do but without a name and reputation to back that up it can be rather difficult or even impossible to get more than $175 for a 4 hour show, even on a Friday or Saturday. This is not a serious concern for me at the moment because I have another job which covers my bills and I know that I can slowly raise my prices. Don't be afraid to start off at a lower price than you think you are worth. Just set your amount based on what the bar's current estimated income is. If you do a quality show then the people will come and there will be more money for everyone. Also, book as many nights as you can manage. Even at a lower price you will still make money and you will build a clientel that will come to more of your other shows and build them up.

One thing I have learned over the years is how to scout a show. If there is a place you are interested in working, go there and just have a drink (don't get hammered there) or something to eat. Strike up a conversation with the staff so they know you are a person not just some guy off the streets with a 50 song library and a Radio Shack microphone trying to make a quick buck. Find out if they already have a Karaoke night and, if so, when it is. Try to show up again on that night and do some research on the person running the show. If you both do about the same things have a conversation with that person and be sure to give them a business card or two. Networking will go a long way. If they don't have a karaoke night finish your drink or food and leave. Come back again in about a week or so. You may have to do this a few times before you get a chance to actually pop the question. If you have presented yourself well over the last few visits then you will have a much better time trying to book and negotiate prices for your show.

I make it a point to never try to overtake someone else's shows unless they give me reason to. I also recommend that you make a note of anyone who does this to you and put them on your "people to bankrupt" list. No one likes being undercut.

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but I figured the scouting stuff might be useful to someone. I hope this can all be of use to someone.

Happy Thanksgiving to all and to all a deep turkey induced coma!!

Jon
Monolith Entertainment

[alanross]

Monolith, I am usually loath to contradict any posts on these forums, but I must take a moment to dissuade anyone who may have been influenced by your post to follow your lead. I have no personal bias towards you and mean you no offense, however, I strongly disagree with your methods.

First - Not taking the time to integrate new vocalists into your rotation will alienate people. No matter what else you think, please remember that your business relies on people wanting to come to your shows. The biggest draw that I've found, and I've been a DJ/KJ for over 26 years, is fair and respectful treatment of your audience. Karaoke audiences are growing more sophisticated and are less tolerant than in years past. Understanding that other shows competing with you may pull your crowds away by presenting a more positive response to people and a less "monolithic" style will increase your draw. Increasing your draw means increasing the revenue for the establishments in which you play. Increasing their revenue puts you in a very good position to negotiate a higher rate of pay. It's the way the cycle works.

For anyone who wishes to follow Monolith's example, good luck, bon chance, I wish you the best. And I sincerely mean that. I wish every one good shows, because if everyone is doing better shows, the overall image of Karaoke will improve and all of us can demand bettter pay rates.

However, I know those of you who wish to treat your vocalists fairly, provide a good venue for them and maintain a generally positive attitude, will have great success.

- Alan

[nreel]

Not disagreeing or agreeing...just what I do.

First, when I used to use Request Slips, I remember what it was like trying to shuffle/move them in order to INSERT New Singers. What a Royal Pain, especially, when you run out of room on your Table where the Request Slips are laid out.

To me, this was the only rational for a KJ to NOT work in New Singers and simply put the New Singers at the END.

But, taking the EASY way is not always the Best Way.

New Singers are buying customers and shouldn't have to wait an exceptionally long time to get a turn to Sing.

Any Karaoke Show that I've seen where Singers are not worked-in have small turn outs and do not grow. It's the same KJ "PET" Singers that show up on a weekly basis.

Current Singers DO NOT mind waiting if they are having a GOOD time and the Venue is aesthetically pleasing and easy to move about. But, the MAIN thing is that they are having a GOOD Time.

That is your JOB, and I say JOB, to make sure they are having a GOOD Time. All too often KJs treat Karaoke like a Part-Time job. The SHOW Suffers, and, Karaoke, as a whole, Suffers.

As the KJ, you may ask what you can do to inject FUN into your Show. Well, NEW Singers are the PERFECT source to do just that.

Say you have several BALLAD songs cued for the upcoming CURRENT Singers. Looking at the List of submitted Songs from NEW Singers gives you the opportunity to INSERT UPBEAT Songs, thereby, changing the mood of the Audience. Many times, this will cause CURRENT Singers to CHANGE their Songs to more UPBEAT Songs...something about Competition and wanting to OUTSHINE the NEW Arrivals...whatever it takes.

The list goes on and on with respect to how NEW Arrivals can help a KJ in achieving a memorable SHOW where Patrons are commenting to the KJ, on the way out after the Show, that they had the BEST time and that they will be back.

I have, no less than, 40 Singers every Friday night. At 4 minutes/Song, the CURRENT SINGERS...Singers who were at the Venue when the Karaoke Started (9:00pm)...will wait until, almost, 12 Midnight for me to START the 2nd Rotation. And, why are they waiting? Because I'm working in NEW Singers as the night goes on. And, why are they NOT Leaving? Because I'm using the NEW Singers to INJECT life into Mix, which causes everyone to have a GOOD Time.

[alanross]

For me, I don't let the first rotation go longer than an hour and a half - two hours, tops. After about an hour and a half, you start losing the people who've already sung their first song and don't feel like waiting three hours to sing another four-minute song.

Especially if you live in an area where there is a lot of Karaoke competition - you gotta remember that people are sitting there thinking, "Do I really want to wait three hours to sing a four minute song? Three hours for four mintues? I can run down the street and get into that rotation."

It's very easy to make it a mathematical formula that people can understand. You can average-out songs at about 4:00 minutes each. That means that it will take about an hour and 45 minutes to play 25 songs. You make it policy that the first 25 songs will be played in the first rotation, if they get their slips in before 9:15. Any singers coming in after 9:15 will be slipped into the next rotation as a "new vocalist" and the "new vocalists" are inserted every other song.

With Hoster this is real easy to manage and the crowds respond extremely well. They see you are not playing favorites, they understand that it's up to them to get their slips in early, and if they do come in late, they can usually still sing their first song relatively quickly. New vocalists don't normally have to wait any longer to sing their first song than the 25th person in the first rotation had to wait to sing theirs. In fact it doesn't usually take that long.

By adhering to this rotation and being consistent, our crowds stay larger longer because people know that we're going to make sure we give everybody a fair chance to sing again. We don't simply keep taking new vocalists at the expense of the people who've been there from the start, but we're also not going to ignore the new vocalists. Two hours is maximum for a rotation. After that, you lose a lot of people. Unless you work in an area where the audience is constantly rotating in and out of the place all night, you can't hold a crowd with a show that 's not fair to everyone.

I've made it a point to travel the country and research Karaoke shows. I visited a Karaoke place on Bourbon Street in New Orleans (pre-Katrina) and was surprised to see how the audiences flowed in and out of the place all night. The method this place used was to have no more than 200 songs - all well know, upbeat stuff that anyone could sing and the audience could sing along with - and people would sing the same songs over and over all night long. The trick is - the audience was never the same from hour to hour. On Bourbon Street, people move up and down the street, popping into one club after another to see what's going on. The never stay in any one place too long. So these shows capitalize on how their audiences are constantly changing and they don't really have to worry about rotation and song selection, they just let the new group of people that flows in every half hour or so sing the same stuff as the previous group that just flowed out.

That worked well for New Orleans, but it won't work in a small town where there is only one place that does Karaoke. I have never seen a really busy Karaoke place in any small town I've visited. Perhaps it's because there's simply not enough people in the town, but usually it's because the Karaoke just isn't that good and there's no good alternative. Good vocalists would rather not sing at all then sing at a bad Karaoke show.

I work in an area where you have got to try to keep people in your place all night and we're contracted to do it 7 nights a week in this one club. That means we've got to try to encourage and maintain enough people to fill this club everynight, but not leave unhappy. It's a fine line and the tightrope can be walked, but it can only be done by clear, fair guidelines that allows the maximum number of songs to be sung by each person.

- Alan

[G-Force]

I know the place bourbon street you are talking about. Its called the Cats Meow. Personally, that type of a show would never work in a "normal" environment. Yes they do a great job there. But it takes 3 people to run a show. The host who sings every other song, a girl to run the rotation and the dj behind the booth. Happy hour is the best there as drinks are 2 for one and you can get loaded really quick for little $$. Yes they run a fair rotation, but that show is all about the Host not the singers. The sad thing is thats the best karaoke on Bourbon street. And yes I was there only 2 weeks prior to Katrina so this was not too long ago.

[Monolith]

AlanRoss

No offense taken, I have been in the business quite a while myself and this is what works for me. This is a free and open forum to exchange ideas and methods. And I agree with many of the things that you as well as others have posted as much as I disagree with some of things that others have posted.

The way I do things just answers several questions and alleviates a lot of the headaches that I used to have.

I used to vary my rotations and insert new singers where applicable but it never failed to have someone pestering or getting mad at me. I got tired of it.

I appreciate your input, please don't think that I don't. That is why this forum is here. I am not an inflexible person and if the rotation needs to change to better the business then I am more than willing to change it. For now, everyone understands and as long as they know that it might be a while they (for the vast majority) don't complain.

I don't expect others to follow my lead. I just wanted to put my methods out there in case someone could find a way to copy or modify them to better us all.

I believe the person who figures out the perfect rotation will be a millionaire in a month.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts and best wishes to you and yours.

**EDIT By the way I just noticed that you are in NC, I take my only real vacations north of Myrtle Beach and I used to work in Charleston SC. I am going to have to remember to check your show out sometime when I am back down that way. Understand I harbor no ill-will and have never held a grudge against anyone (excluding my ex-wife). Just interested in meeting some of the major players in the business. EDIT**

Jon
Monolith Entertainment