Legal or illegal

[muzicman144]

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Hopefully we are responsible enough to know that the individual we report on is truly using illegal material. If someone is breaking into a house in your neighbor's house or you know that someone is selling drugs would you not report it? I would hope so. The same goes for piracy. It is against the law.

I would like to add this in regard to Sound Choice and the KIAA. Sound Choice moved part of their operation to Australia. When asked why they opened a branch in Australia, when the only difference was there was is 4000 more songs in the Australian SC library than there was in the US library. The SC director of operations replied, "4000 songs". Seems SC cannot get licensed in the USA to reproduce these 4000 songs, but under Australian law they can. The point of this is if SC sold these songs in the US, they would be guilty of piracy, but find no fault in selling these songs legally from Australia to american KJs, who then can be arrested for piracy for using, by american law, and illegal song file, bought legally from another country, piracy knowingly created by SC. No matter how a KJ got one on these files, they would be illegal by KIAA and USA standards. I feel SC blatantly skirted paying copy right fees on these songs by getting a license to sell these same files from Australia. If this isn't a form of piracy, then there is no such thing.
And these are the folks pushing KIAA to pursue piracy, when they have circumvented the US copyright laws for their own form of Piracy
Yes, Dale, I agree with your statement, but this thread is supposed to be about the KIAA and their method of operations. Its ironic that Sound Choice can sell a song file from another country, knowing its illegal in the USA, violating the very laws they are pushing the KIAA to enforce that can result in a KJ being arrested and fined for a illegal downloaded song sold by SC. Let's see, a USA fine per song for illegal copyright violation is around $15,000.00 per song, totaling a whopping $60 million in fines Sound Choice would face for selling these 4000 song files in the USA. Now do you combat piracy by aiding a company that is guilty of piracy themselves. That is the question here.
Muzicman144

[BooBoo]

On one hand, SC TRIED to pursue the proper channels to gain those songs and the music industry is too stupid to take advantage, so SC does what others are doing just to stay in the game.

THEN On the other hand, ppl buy those freak'n drives, "just to stay in the game"...

So the music industry will probably go after the CD makers, the CD makers will probably go after the HD users, no one can make K-music, no one can buy K-music, no one wins and Karaoke is dead...

Greed at its finest...

[billyo]

Originally Posted by muzicman144

I would like to add this in regard to Sound Choice and the KIAA. Sound Choice moved part of their operation to Australia. When asked why they opened a branch in Australia, when the only difference was there was is 4000 more songs in the Australian SC library than there was in the US library. The SC director of operations replied, "4000 songs". Seems SC cannot get licensed in the USA to reproduce these 4000 songs, but under Australian law they can. The point of this is if SC sold these songs in the US, they would be guilty of piracy, but find no fault in selling these songs legally from Australia to american KJs, who then can be arrested for piracy for using, by american law, and illegal song file, bought legally from another country, piracy knowingly created by SC. No matter how a KJ got one on these files, they would be illegal by KIAA and USA standards. I feel SC blatantly skirted paying copy right fees on these songs by getting a license to sell these same files from Australia. If this isn't a form of piracy, then there is no such thing.
And these are the folks pushing KIAA to pursue piracy, when they have circumvented the US copyright laws for their own form of Piracy
Yes, Dale, I agree with your statement, but this thread is supposed to be about the KIAA and their method of operations. Its ironic that Sound Choice can sell a song file from another country, knowing its illegal in the USA, violating the very laws they are pushing the KIAA to enforce that can result in a KJ being arrested and fined for a illegal downloaded song sold by SC. Let's see, a USA fine per song for illegal copyright violation is around $15,000.00 per song, totaling a whopping $60 million in fines Sound Choice would face for selling these 4000 song files in the USA. Now do you combat piracy by aiding a company that is guilty of piracy themselves. That is the question here.
Muzicman144

i agree with you, it's like buying a cuban cigar, you can't buy it in USA, but you can get it from another country, but still if they ( gov't ) found out that you're smoking it in the USA you'll get arrested..SC ( KIAA )doesn't care where you got it from, as long as they can get their money, they don't care where, when, how you and i use it....about these 4000 songs, do they have a list of the songs? and so if we have some of the songs on that 4000 that they could not get a license in the US, does that mean we are all illegal kj's?

[billyo]

[

no one wins and Karaoke is dead...

Greed at its finest...

[/quote]

it's a losing battle, but i dis-agree with you , karaoke is not dead or will it ever, it might fizzle for a while

[madjim- with the Lord]

I have avoided getting into this conversation because it has been discused so many times in the forum but as an active member, here is my $.02 worth.

Like Musicman144, I am a musician who uses Hoster to run backing tracks. I use karaoke tracks. This lead to me being a karaoke host.

I have over 11,000 karaoke songs that I use at my shows, not counting the doubles and tracks with vocals that I paid for and don't use. That's well over $11,000 I've invested in karaoke tracks.

I have found the karaoke track indusrty to be quite a mess. Being a working musician, I have the utmost respect for songwriters and producers and have never had any intentions on doing anything illegal. I ended up paying for (I have reciepts) and downloading karaoke tracks from a Canadian company before I knew that karaoke downloads are illegal in the USA. I have since stopped.

The Sound Choice/Australia issue is just more proof of how messed up the karaoke track industry is.

There are three songs in my karaoke collection that I made myself. I do have non-karaoke versions of these songs that I paid for so I have the rights to use them, I think. If karaoke versions were available, I would have bought them.

With the present climent of the karaoke track business being so cloudy, how can any karaoke host be 100% squeeky clean?

I believe that any company or person that sells thousands of karaoke tracks on a hard drive for a few hundred dollars should be arrested and thrown in jail like any other ciminal for they are obviously breaking the law. If you are not paying at least $1 a track, you are buying pirated material. So how do we get these folks in front of an entity that will enforce this? Is it worth creating the "Karaoke Police" when we have so many other long time social issues that are unresolved?

Until the climate of the karaoke track business clears up, all a karaoke host can do is be as legal as humanly possible, stand for what is right and work hard to put on an entertaining show that is one step above the rest, IMHO. Hoster helps us do this which is why I donate me time to be a beta tester.

Jim

This is today's Valdosta Daily Times front page aritcle. I am so honored to see that entertainers can have an impact on their community.

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/lo...238233354.html

[muzicman144]

Jim, well said. Water seeks its level, and the karaoke field will also. To be a successful KJ or even a one man show is a lot of work for those of us who do the work it takes to be the best we can be. The quick dollar pirate will fall beside the wayside because of this and peer pressure. I just choose not to jump on a self serving wagon that really "appears" to have its own agenda in mind. Give the good kj time, he will prevail and "self police" as necessary.
muzicman144

[billyo]

Originally Posted by madjim

I have avoided getting into this conversation because it has been discused so many times in the forum but as an active member, here is my $.02 worth.

Like Musicman144, I am a musician who uses Hoster to run backing tracks. I use karaoke tracks. This lead to me being a karaoke host.

I have over 11,000 karaoke songs that I use at my shows, not counting the doubles and tracks with vocals that I paid for and don't use. That's well over $11,000 I've invested in karaoke tracks.

I have found the karaoke track indusrty to be quite a mess. Being a working musician, I have the utmost respect for songwriters and producers and have never had any intentions on doing anything illegal. I ended up paying for (I have reciepts) and downloading karaoke tracks from a Canadian company before I knew that karaoke downloads are illegal in the USA. I have since stopped.

The Sound Choice/Australia issue is just more proof of how messed up the karaoke track industry is.

There are three songs in my karaoke collection that I made myself. I do have non-karaoke versions of these songs that I paid for so I have the rights to use them, I think. If karaoke versions were available, I would have bought them.

With the present climent of the karaoke track business being so cloudy, how can any karaoke host be 100% squeeky clean?

I believe that any company or person that sells thousands of karaoke tracks on a hard drive for a few hundred dollars should be arrested and thrown in jail like any other ciminal for they are obviously breaking the law. If you are not paying at least $1 a track, you are buying pirated material. So how do we get these folks in front of an entity that will enforce this? Is it worth creating the "Karaoke Police" when we have so many other long time social issues that are unresolved?

Until the climate of the karaoke track business clears up, all a karaoke host can do is be as legal as humanly possible, stand for what is right and work hard to put on an entertaining show that is one step above the rest, IMHO. Hoster helps us do this which is why I donate me time to be a beta tester.

Jim

This is today's Valdosta Daily Times front page aritcle. I am so honored to see that entertainers can have an impact on their community.

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/lo...238233354.html

hang in there Jim, my cousin too was diagnosed with it years ago, but now she's fine, had 4 kids after she was told about it and all the kid are grown up now.. she went through what you're going through now..positive thinking will get you through all these....

[RandyMcCharles]

My concern is that while KIAA asks industry participants to join, the web site does not provide enough information to convince me that joining is a good thing. I appreciate the legal info and news posted on the site, but I also question their agenda. If it is a watchdog for 'serious violators' then is is probably a mostly good agenda. If it is attempting to persecute all violations, no matter how small, then I suspect ulterior motives. If there are no ulterior motives, then persecuting all violations can still be a bad thing because is can scare KJs out of the business, or at a minimum make Kj a business that is no longer fun because Big Brother is watching.

[billyo]

what i'm concern about was, (can't remember who posted it ) " if you become a member of KIAA they won't bother you " and i know that in order to be a member of any group, there would be some kind of dues, does that look /sounds like extortion, a money making enterprise.hope i'm wrong

[RandyMcCharles]

While I wrote my last short reply a whole whack of msgs were posted, and I just caught up reading. I think Jim said it best when he said the whole industry is messed up. And not just karaoke, the whole music distribution industry is messed up. And it is messed up by greed - at both ends. The producers want and deserve their pound of flesh, and many end users want to pay as little flesh as possible. Those of us in the middle trying to pay an honest buck for an honest product get squeezed from both ends. This all enforces my feeling that 'serious violators' should be prosecuted any how any way while those trying to get by as honestly as they can in a messed up industry should be left alone, as it is those who are keeping the industry running. I agree that SC and other manufacterers who don't play it straight in order to make a buck are as guily as any one. Are they trying to get by as honestly as they can or are they a serious violator? I don't know. All businesses makes use of global jurisdictions to pay less or be in business at all. I do agree that they are the pot calling the kettle black when they feel they can 'play the game' while not allowing Kjs to do the same. So this goes back to a question I asked several posting ago. Is KIAA going after every fish or just the big fish? If they just target 'serious violators' I approve. If the go after all fish, I question their motives and their common sense.

[muzicman144]

The Phoenix rash of lawsuits "appear" to be power struggle to control Karaoke venues in Phoenix to me. Starz Karaoke is the main player whose owner, Eric Godfrey, is the organizer the Karaoke Alliance, which basically merged with KIAA and is a prominent member of KIAA. There is a website that he appears to have interest in called night2night which list the Kjs, the venues and who is playing where in the Phoenix area. Interesting enough, they have added a line to show if they are "certified" by KIAA or the Karaoke Alliance. If a kj playing a club is not a member of these organizations, they are listed as NOT CERTIFIED, which would imply they may possibly illegal, but, not actually saying it. Quite a story in itself if you choose to pursue this story. This is not to imply Mr. Godfrey is doing anything illegal. Just Google Phoenix Karaoke and follow the path.
muzicman144

[gduns - with the Lord]

Personally I can't understand How if a bar pays the ascap and sesac fees, which are a performing rights group that any music played in that venue karaoke or not can be illegal.

[BooBoo]

Originally Posted by gduns

Personally I can't understand How if a bar pays the ascap and sesac fees, which are a performing rights group that any music played in that venue karaoke or not can be illegal.

This may be why SC went after them on trademark infringement, which was a shocker to me anyway. SC contends that playing their stuff without paying them for it illegally shows the SC logo. They may not even test the performing rights side of things in that case.

[BooBoo]

I was being partly sarcastic is my post from before when I called it the death of Karaoke, just to clear things up a bit. I know it's hard to see sarcasm in posts sometimes..

While I was being slightly sarcastic, it is a pretty dark day for the industry all the way around..

[gduns - with the Lord]

If the guys lawyer is smart, all he has to allude to is that the guy was playing a customers disk........ on those few songs. a court isnt going to give him the right to search his hard drive to look for something to charge him with that is a bunch of bull, I see this as more harrassment than anything.

[billyo]

Originally Posted by BooBoo

I was being partly sarcastic is my post from before when I called it the death of Karaoke, just to clear things up a bit. I know it's hard to see sarcasm in posts sometimes..

While I was being slightly sarcastic, it is a pretty dark day for the industry all the way around..

don't worry about it BooBoo, i didnt take it that way, nor i thought about it that way, it's an observation/opinion to what's going on...

[marklwood]

Originally Posted by gduns

Personally I can't understand How if a bar pays the ascap and sesac fees, which are a performing rights group that any music played in that venue karaoke or not can be illegal.

Here, Here!! I have my own personal gripes about the music industry as a whole. I pay one $434 fee for the jukebox to JLO just for the privilege of playing the songs that I had to purchase in the first place. I can get my head around this because the jukebox takes quarters and I can see why they want their $.24 cut from that. All total, after paying the fee and buying new CDs I made a grand total of $118 off that $5000 jukebox this last year. Hell, at least it is a profit.

What my major objection is the fees charged by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. I am not making one red cent directly from karaoke. I do not charge a cover charge, there is no purchase requirement, nor do I charge to sing. I pay the fee based on seating capacity as if my venue was full 6 nights a week. All this after I have spent well into 6 figures on music.

In my perfect little world it would work like this.

I will continue to pay the $8000 a year in fees to the big three.
They would provide access to their entire catalog for use at my venue.
I won't even request a refund for the $100k I have already spent acquiring the catalog I presently have.

I acquire new music all the time. That is the only way to stay ahead of the market. The bitch about it is, I could do karaoke 4 hours a night, 6 nights a week, for 32 years and still not hear a song twice. But God forbid you don't have Joe Blow's favorite B side of a one hit wonder song in your book!!!

[RandyMcCharles]

Now I understand why there are so many sports bars playing hocky and football reruns instead of doing karaoke or other music features. Oh for the simple life.

[bryant]

Originally Posted by marklwood

Here, Here!! I have my own personal gripes about the music industry as a whole. I pay one $434 fee for the jukebox to JLO just for the privilege of playing the songs that I had to purchase in the first place. I can get my head around this because the jukebox takes quarters and I can see why they want their $.24 cut from that. All total, after paying the fee and buying new CDs I made a grand total of $118 off that $5000 jukebox this last year. Hell, at least it is a profit.

My question is: Why would you bother to do it?

[RandyMcCharles]

I wouldn't. I have always wondered why so many bars do.