Merge or Rebuild Database?

[Skybird74]

I'm a little confused. I keep reading the Manual trying to understand the difference between merging and rebuilding. As I understand it, if you rebuild and there are duplicate IDs (don't understand how that happens), then those songs are put on a list and then you have to re-import all those songs. Is that true? If so, why would you ever want to Rebuild?

I have always used my desktop to import and make changes (fix song names, etc.) to my external hard drive and then do my Show with my laptop. However, when I want to just practice at home using my desktop, the database is very different from what I get when I use my laptop after merging these files.

So, I started making all my corrections with the laptop only to be sure that these corrections show up at my Show. Am I doing something wrong?

Just bought a new Vista laptop, so I'm wondering the correct way to transfer my songs to be sure I get everything, including any previous changes I've made. If I rebuild and there are duplicate IDs, I'm worried that they will get renumbered. I don't want to start over. I don't have the hours/days needed to re-import all those disks.

Any advice will be appreciated.

[gd123]

Desktop ---> Laptop using same External Drive

Once correcting any KMA or adding Songs via the Desktop, just copy the SONGS.MDB from your Desktop to your Laptop.

Make sure that the External Drive LETTER assigned by your Desktop is THE SAME Drive LETTER assigned by your Laptop.

If they are different, then CHANGE your Laptop's DRIVE LETTER to match what your Desktop has assigned.

If you are using a Printed Song List, where a BookID is your reference to a song, do not use the MERGE Command as that would render the Current Printed Song List useless.

[Skybird74]

Thanks for the answer. I forgot about just copying the .mdb to the other computer.

No, I don't refer to the Book I.D, so that's not the problem.

But the Manual specifically says that if you "rebuild" and it finds a duplicate I.D. that those songs will be put in a list. And, it also states that those songs may need to be "re-imported". It also suggests merging, saying that "re-building" is rarely necessary.

My concern is having to re-import songs because of the rebuilding process.

[mindonstrike]

If you fix/edit a kma on one computer and then move the corrected files to another computer just make sure they go into the same folder as the ones you are replacing and windows will overwrite the old ones. Hoster will play the new corrected kma's although the database won't show the corrections until you rebuild. If you put them in a diferent folder and try to merge (or rebuild for that matter), Hoster will list them in the duplicate diskid log and then ignore them because they are duplicates.

The ONLY time Hoster will change a bookid requires using the merge command. When using merge, when Hoster encounters a kma with a duplicate bookid (same bookid as another file with a different diskid). These are generally only possible if you import using both computers (to save time for example) and then combine the files together.
If you use just one computer to import and then transfer to the other, duplicate bookids will never occur.

But the Manual specifically says that if you "rebuild" and it finds a duplicate I.D. that those songs will be put in a list. And, it also states that those songs may need to be "re-imported". It also suggests merging, saying that "re-building" is rarely necessary.

My concern is having to re-import songs because of the rebuilding process.

Again this only an issue when you are using 2 or more computers to import a bunch of disks to combine later. If you use the same diskid for 2 different disks you'll have to reimport one of them to correct the situation because you can't use the edit screen to change a diskid.
If you are importing with 2 computers and are anal about making sure they have different diskids (using the manufacturers diskid is the safest way of doing this) this will never be an issue.

If all you are doing is adding new songs then merge is all you need. If you are fixing songs on computer A and want to use merge to add them to computer B you can delete those songs on computer B (using the edit songs screen) and then you can use merge for those as well.

Sam

[Skybird74]

WOW! Thanks for the detailed answer. I do understand more than I did. I always Imported from my desktop, put them in a New Songs Folder on my external drive. I always let Hoster assign the Book ID. I couldn't care less what ID Hoster assigns the song, as I always pick songs according to the Disk ID (i.e S.C. or CB). Then I used the "merge" command on my laptop so that the database I use at my Shows is always up-to-date. That way my "new songs" are kept so that I can print out a list of new songs for my songbooks.

However, when I first got Hoster I also did my editing on the desktop, and that information did not always show up on my Show Computer, but when I do my editing on my Show computer all the information is there. Plus while I was learning I think I tried to do things differently and not sure how that has affected my database or whether Hoster ever assigned a duplicate ID to anything. I always let Hoster assign the IDs and never pay any attention those numbers.

If I understand you correctly, if I rebuild the database that duplicate songs, if any, will NOT be lost? All I want to do is now put All my kma's on my new laptop so I don't have to.
So... when Hoster builds the new database for the first time on my new laptop, and somehow finds a duplicate ID, will everything still be there?

[ddouglass]

It doesn't delete them so if you did a rebuild and it shows duplicate IDs, the files are still there but not listed in the database. Run the merge and Hoster will change the bookid for the duplicates and add them to the database. Since you only use the discid this shouldn't give you any problems.

[mindonstrike]

If I understand you correctly, if I rebuild the database that duplicate songs, if any, will NOT be lost? All I want to do is now put All my kma's on my new laptop so I don't have to.
So... when Hoster builds the new database for the first time on my new laptop, and somehow finds a duplicate ID, will everything still be there?

Well as I read and understand what you are doing I se 2 possible courses of action (both of which will reset your new song counter):

1st, this is the way I would do it (and have a time or two) but only because I don't like my KMA's spread out in different locations:
Cut and paste all the songs fromthe "new song folders" into the "old songs folder", when windows encounters the edited kma's it will ask you want to replace the file in the folder with the one you are moving, it will tell you the name of the file and the dates they were modified, typicly the ones you are moving will be newer than the ones they will replace. Tell windows to replace the old ones. when that's done open the build database screen, you will see the "old songs" folder listed as well as any and all of the new song folders, you can delete those new song folders from the list (Hoster will automaticaly add them back the next time you use merge). Click the build database button and click OK to the backup message and let it do it's thing.

Or

This will temporarily fix your problem but it only puts it off to be fixed another day. The one good thing about this method is that since no files are being moved you can copy your songs.mdb to another location and re-use it if you don't like the results.
First, open the build database screen in Hoster, in the list of song folders make sure the main folder or original folder or old song folder (whatever it's called ) is listed last, make sure the new song folders (the ones with your edited kma's) are listed first. Hoster will build the database folder by folder in the order they are listed, until it's done, by putting the edited kma's before the older ones, Hoster will add the new ones and later ignore the duplicates.
To move a folder to the last position you just need to delete it from the list and then re-add it.

Now rebuild the database, the edited kma's will get included and the older duplicates will get logged as duplicates but otherwise ignored.

Hopefully this isn't to confusing, I made several edits because I started confusing myself.LOL

Sam

[mindonstrike]

I see Dale snuck a post in there so..uh..yea..what Dale said.

[Skybird74]

Mindonstrike - thank you for your explanations. That actually helped me to understand more how the program actually works. However, my new songs folders really does hold only new songs, not the edited ones. I edit kma's using Hoster, so the files never get moved from their original place. Whenever I edit a file and then pull it up with the Search feature, it immediately shows the edits I made.

I think DDouglass' answer is what I was looking for.

Thanks to everyone for your help! I feel better now about copying all my kma's onto my new laptop without worrying about any getting deleted in the process of building a new database.

[gd123]

Seems everyone missed the fact that you were using ONE and THE SAME HARD DRIVE, which happens to be external. I don't see how the "Folders" would have changed.

When you are NOT using separate Computers to SIMULTAENOUSLY import Discs, which IS the case here, this is, "In reality," what happens when you Rebuild a database and, during the rebuild, "duplicate" BookIDs are found.

Under the above scenario, it would be impossible to have Dupicate BookIDs. So what is happening is, Hoster found a degraded Header and does not process/add the Song to the Songs.MDB. So, now, you have to reimport the Song.

So, one could conclude that ReBuilding the Songs DB would be something that one doesn't want to do lightly.

I haven't rebuilt my Songs Db in over a year.

If you DO NOT rebuild the DB, Hoster will PLAY any Song that has a Degraded Header, because Hoster uses the Songs.MDB to queue the Song. And, since the Song is STILL in the Songs.MDB, by not having REBUILT the DB, it PLAYS.

This is why I suggested to, and, I don't know how to make it more simple, copy the Songs.MDB.

[Skybird74]

Thanks. That makes a whole lot more sense & simplifies it. You're right. Just copy the Songs.mdb and you know what you've got.

I'm wondering if I did a rebuild a long time ago, instead of a Merge, when I was still learning Hoster, because I know there are some files missing that I used to have. Is it possibled there are one of those duplicates that just doesn't show up in the database? Am I making any sense?

[mindonstrike]

Originally Posted by skybird

when I first got Hoster I also did my editing on the desktop, and that information did not always show up on my Show Computer, but when I do my editing on my Show computer all the information is there

Since Skybird has edited on both computers simply using a copy of songs.mdb will only trade one problem for another. If Skybird is using a single external HD between two computers, then yes, using a copy of the database would be the quicker easy way to keep up-to-date, but the problems need to be fixed first.

Nowhere in Skybird's posts do I find any indication of a "degraded header". It all seems to boil down to the fact that when using merge, Hoster will not re-read the header for a kma that is already in the database.

So, one could conclude that ReBuilding the Songs DB would be something that one doesn't want to do lightly.

I haven't rebuilt my Songs Db in over a year.

Building the database is a read-only operation, it make zero changes to the KMA's,it only reads the changes that she made in the edit songs screen. When I'm beta testing Hoster I will sometimes rebuild the database several times a day. It's just not that big of a deal, and since it is a read only operation, Skybird can keep a copy of the old songs.mdb (as I noted in my earlier post) and replace the new one if there is a problem.

Sam

[Skybird74]

[quote=mindonstrike;66291]Since Skybird has edited on both computers simply using a copy of songs.mdb will only trade one problem for another. If Skybird is using a single external HD between two computers, then yes, using a copy of the database would be the quicker easy way to keep up-to-date, but the problems need to be fixed first.

To clarify, yes I only used a single external HD between two computers, meaning all my kma songs are on the external HD. And, yes, I edited using 2 different computers, with Hoster on each. However, the MDB is in the Hoster folder of the C: drive of the respective computer. So, when I edited on 1 computer, the mdb on that would be updated. Is that correct? If editing only changes the header of the kma file that on the external drive, then how does the MDB on the C: drive know that I've edited a song?

So, it sounds to me like if editing actually changes the kma header itself, when I copy ALL kma files to 1 folder on my new computer & rebuild the MDB, the new MDB should show ALL songs including all edits, regardless of which computer I used to edit the individual songs. Is that right?

[gd123]

Since Skybird has edited on both computers simply using a copy of songs.mdb will only trade one problem for another. If Skybird is using a single external HD between two computers, then yes, using a copy of the database would be the quicker easy way to keep up-to-date, but the problems need to be fixed first.

Yes, at this point, since KMAs were Edited when the External Drive was attached to the Home Computer, the Songs.MDB was updated with those EDITS.

At that point, the Songs.MDB was not copied to the Laptop.

Then, it was decided to use the Laptop to EDIT KMAs, which updated info to the Laptop's Songs.MDB.

At this point, you have two separate Songs.MDBs with, possibly, different information in them.

So, you have no choice but to Rebuild your DB on which ever Computer you choose. Then, you can copy the newly rebuilt DB to the other Computer.

So, when I edited on 1 computer, the mdb on that would be updated. Is that correct?

Yes

If editing only changes the header of the kma file that on the external drive, then how does the MDB on the C: drive know that I've edited a song?

Because EDITING a KMA (Song) updates the Songs.MDB automatically, but ony for that Computer. I would suggest using only ONE Computer to do your EDITING.

So, it sounds to me like if editing actually changes the kma header itself

This is correct.

when I copy ALL kma files to 1 folder on my new computer & rebuild the MDB, the new MDB should show ALL songs including all edits, regardless of which computer I used to edit the individual songs. Is that right?

Correct

After you have copied all your KMAs to the new Laptop Internal HD and built the DB, in the Future, I would use a file utility program that has the ability to compare files. Then, only newer/changed files would be copied over verses having to copy ALL the KMAs.

Nowhere in Skybird's posts do I find any indication of a "degraded header".

Unless Shybird didn't use the SAME Folder designations in the Build Songs Database Window on Both Computers, I can't see how there would be Truly Duplicate BookIDs, which is what she was concerned about.

Therefore, during the rebuild of a DB on ONE EXTERNAL DRIVE sharing known and SAME Folders, in each Computer, Duplicate BookIDs are NOT possible. If "Duplicate" BookIDs are flaged, by Hoster, during a Rebuild, and listed in a Duplicate BookID TXT File, what would be the Alternative explanation in a "NOT Possible" scenario. The ONLY explanation is that Hoster found Songs that it COULD NOT PROCESS. The ONLY thing Hoster READS is the HEADER during a REBUILD...if Hoster CAN'T READ the HEADER, then the HEADER IS DEGRADED.

One thing for sure, if the SONG ain't listed in the Songs.MDB...it CAN'T BE PLAYED.

[Skybird74]

GD123, Thank You so much for taking the time to answer each of my questions separately. You figured out my problem exactly and I will follow your advice. What "file utility program" would you suggest that I can use to compare my new MDB with the old one?