"CDG vs BIN" File

[kjzone]

MicroStudio extracts a CD+G as a "cdg" file,
Goldenhawk extracts a CD+G as a "bin" file.

I have looked on the Internet for some technical papers regarding the differences between the cdg and bin formats, but have found nothing.

I know they are different and would like some TECHNICAL information on the EXACT differences

[George]

http://recordingeq.com/reflib.html#top

.BIN
Binary - A numbering system based on two. In binary there are two symbols used ("l" and "0").

.WAV
Wave - A continuous fluctuation in the amplitude of a quantity with respect to time.

Now all we need is an engineer to translate these for us

Also found .WAV is the audio format used by Microsoft Windows

Haven't seen anything we don't know so far regarding CD+G which would give a clue to the difference.

[kjzone]

MTU PROGRAMMERS......GIVE US A LITTLE HELP HERE TO EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CDG AND BIN FILES.

MAYBE YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY YOU USE CDG AND GOLDENHAWK USES BIN?

[MTUSUPPORT]

The .cdg is the exact as the .bin file. They both are a binary file, our's just has a different naming.

[admin]

A .bin file can be any form of data to write to a CDR disc. Goldenhawk uses .bin for the extension on every file they import, whether it is an entire disc image file used to make a duplicate copy, a .wav file from an audio CD (which they store as .bin), or a CD+Graphics+music file imported from a Karaoke CDG disc (which they store as a .bin file). They even use .bin for CDROM data disc images. Thus, their definition of .bin is VERY BROAD, which can cause confusion in non-technical markets and computer shy users.

MTU first created and used the .cdg extension before any other company started to redefine our definition. MTU .cdg files are the identical format as you will find stored on a Karaoke CDG disc. You can be sure that an MTU .cdg file contains everything you need to play a Karaoke CDG song. There is no worrying about where the matching pair (see below) file is so you won't be embarrised!!!!!

When backing up MTU .cdg files, there is only one file per Karaoke CDG song. You just can not get any simpler than that.

Some other companies create and play illegally distributed MP3+G files. These are composed of a pair of files; one is a .wav (the music audio samples) and the other a .cdg file (holding the R-W codes for the lyrics/graphic data in a CDG song). They are in error as we first used and defined the .cdg format. However, that an $2.50 will get you a cup of Java at Starbucks!!!

Now you know....

[danny_g]

the differance is this- you can rename a Goldhawk .bin file to .cdg to run on microstidio but it won't work in reverse- Tried it and failed.

[kjzone]

I just took a SoundChoice CD+G song and:

1. Extracted the "Bin" file with Goldenhawak
2. Extracted the "CD+G" file with MicroStudio

3. Using Quick View Plus is opened up both files and they appear to be the same, reporting 21,743,136 Bytes of data.

4. I next used a HexEdit "COMPARISON FILE" PROGRAM called
AJC DIFF to look at both files.

5. AJC DIFF reported at the two files "DIFFER" AT "73346".

6. CONCUSION.......THE BIN FILE CREATED BY GOLDENHAWK AND THE CD+G FILE CREATED BY MICROSTUDIO "ARE NOT THE SAME"

[George]

Not conclusive enough until we know what "DIFFER" AT "73346" means.
It could simply mean that one has a .CDG extension and the other has a .BIN extension could it not, especially since the file sizes are identical?

[kedmison]

George,

Don't remember where the thread is at, but MTU just anwsered this recently and basically said the only difference is the extension.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Kelly

[George]

Thanks Kelly, you have a good Thanksgiving also.

George,

[kjzone]

George, got another HexEdit File Comparison Program, Link Below:

http://www.prestosoft.com/examdiff/examdiffpro.htm

Called "ExamDiff Pro" v3.0 Beta

Used the Goldenhawk "Bin" and MicroStudio "CD+G" from the same SoundChoice Song.

As with the AJC Diff Program that reported a "Diff at 73346" between the two hex files. Apparently at 73346 is only the Start of the Differences between the two files. The ExamDiff Pro also reports this number of "Diff at 73346" and refers this to an "Offset".

The ExamDiff Pro program REPORTS 118 "Differences" between the Bin and CD+G files, claimed to be the same by MTU.

Of the 118 Differences the program says (2) ADDED, (2) DELETED and (114) CHANGED.

Within the Program you have a side by side comparison of the 118 Differences in Hexidecimal Code. You can go to each of the 118 Differences and see them and print them out. To print them out would require 118 Pages. (one page per difference)

AS "danny_g" said and I have found you just can change the extension from a bin to cdg or cdg to bin and expect it to work as the ExamDiff Pro Program shows in the Song I extracted, there are 118 Differences between the Goldenhawk "Bin" file and the MTU "CDG" file.

I CAN'T SEE WHY MTU IS SAYING THAT BOTH ARE THE SAME WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENCES?

I AM CONVINCED THEY ARE "NOT THE SAME".

P.S. Anyone can download the ExamDiff Pro Program and run the comparisons to see for themselves the differences. Would like anyone with HEX EDIT experiance to EXPLAIN the DIFFERENCES.

[George]

Here's where I am at a loss.

The industry uses .WAV as the audio standard.

The industry uses .Text as the lyrics standard.

The bulk of the Karaoke industry uses CDG as the standard.

MTU's product is based on all these standards.

So just because Goldenhawk comes along and decides to call everything .BIN.....WHO CARES !

It seems as though the focus of this thread had changed from trying to learn something to trying to prove MTU wrong.

So who cares if you can't change a KHP produced cdg into a .BIN...WHO CARES !

George

A little thought about the differences between BIN and CDG files kjzone has found -- it may happen that there are small scratches on the CD that get fixed during the read process using the process called 'jitter correction'. There corrections are unhearable, but may cause a differences in the binary file (a bit or two might be different). As an experiment I would suggest you read the same track twice using the same program and then compared the results. In some cases you will see that there are differences between the files.

I hope this clears the mystery a little.

Eric

[danny_g]

Originally posted by George
Here's where I am at a loss.

The industry uses .WAV as the audio standard.

The industry uses .Text as the lyrics standard.

The bulk of the Karaoke industry uses CDG as the standard.

MTU's product is based on all these standards.

So just because Goldenhawk comes along and decides to call everything .BIN.....WHO CARES !

It seems as though the focus of this thread had changed from trying to learn something to trying to prove MTU wrong.

So who cares if you can't change a KHP produced cdg into a .BIN...WHO CARES !

George

just providing info - it's not that important and I still prefer Microstudio over Goldenhawk anyway. I gotta stop getting involved with controversies. LOL.

[twoodie]

OK, folks, here's the deal...
Other than the extension (bin or cdg), there is absolutely, positively no difference whatsoever between the two. The difference is that Microstudio can play files with the cdg extension.
I use a variety of different programs to extract, burn and play karaoke files. Microstudio is the only one to handle the cdg extension. Other programs can only handle the bin files. I have set my Windows PC to not hide the file extensions so I can tell them apart, and also change the extension from cdg to bin and back, with no problems or loss of quality at all.

[jaddams]

What's the big controversy about anyway?

Doesn't MicroStudio works as it supposed to?

Isn't every karaoke host out there using CD+G's?

Isn't it the purpose of brewing our own karaoke disks to end up with a CD+G?

Isn't it a CD+G that we take with us when we go out to our friendly karaoke club?

?????????????

Best regards,

Jon

[admin]

As kjzone has pointed out, there could well be differences in the files read in from one disc as a .bin or as .cdg. However, we have never said we are compatitble with CDRWIN, and have never made any legal claims on our website to that effect. I personally have not done binary or hex compares of .bin -vs- .cdg imported files, nor will we ever take the time. We have 5 products that we produce that covers all phases of what is needed for Karaoke CDG production.

We have designed our products for the Karaoke Market, Goldenhawk has not. Their product is far too technical for (IMHO) 98-99% of this market. Thus, anyone using CDRWIN is more technically astute than the VAST marjority of the Karaoke market. Enjoy, that you have the technical chops to use CDRWIN, but please, keep the false advice that MTU MUST support .bin files out of MTU's Forums.

The bin/cdg controversy is OF NO IMPORTANCE TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF MTU'S CUSTOMERS. It is not something that will benefit MTU or our client base, and we will not modify our products to resolve any differences between .bin and .cdg files. Our format as stated before, is fully self-sufficient to have everything in one file that is needed to import, play, assembly, and write a CDG song to a CDG Karaoke disc. That, my friends is the controlling factor. There is no other reason other than engineering esoterics that is even at play here.

Some users have posted that they can interchange .bin and .cdg files bi-directional. I believe that to be the case, knowing what I do about CDRWIN and Microstudio. If there are some conditions where this is not the case, Frankly... I do not care one bit about it.

Thus, in closing, I am not trying to be arogant, but clearly state the fact that MTU has designed the .cdg format specifically to meet the needs of the CDG Karaoke communicty, not the disc-duplication community. We did this way before the "johnny come lately's" redefined the .cdg for their purposes, ignoring there already existed a "standard definiton" for the .cdg extension. In the 32 years I have been developing products with crack-engineering teams, we often have defined the "bleeding edge" of technology evolution.

The point man usually is "shot at" because he is out there and is cutting the path for others to follow. We are visionary. We will not modify our products to work with CDRWIN, as that is NOT a product our market demands. This thread is closed.

QED!