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Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

And this is where it gets very confusing. After reading several vague FAQs and answers to emails, what it looks like:

1. The manufacturer/download company only purchases personal use rights. (Possibly the public use rights are including in the mechanical rights, which I think is tied to the pressing of the CDG)

2. However, bars pay for the rights to play music in their establishment, which is why they can play a radio or music station). These rights also include the playing karaoke music.

3. The point of contention is in displaying the karaoke lyrics, which is not included in the entertainment fees the bar is paying. Therefore it should be just fine to take your download and sing to it provided only you, the private purchaser, see the lyrics. And there seems to be no mechanism for you as a download purchaser to pay for the right to show the lyrics in public.

Therefore, it appears to be technically illegal for a KJ to purchase a karaoke download and use it in commercial or non-commercial public shows. It can, however, be used in private, non-commercial settings.

That said, everything I have seen has been vague and unclear. Even the manufacturers and download companies don't seem to have a clear understanding. Most of them don't seem to have a license statement or a FAQ. Those that did were unclear. I emailed for clarification and either got further muddiness for no answer.

If anyone can shed more light on the the question of legally using a download in place of a manufactured CDG, please enlighten us.

Some of the legal facts are answered at our "copyright notes" page.

1. It is ILLEGAL in the USA for anyone to sell or provide "digital download" format Karaoke CDG style songs. There is no such thing as a "personal/private" -vs- "public" license. There is one license, and it does NOT include electronic download format. That is why MTU doesn't provide KMA/KMH songs already stored on a Hard Drive with our Hoster Laptops. We would if we could!

2. Correct - An ASCAP/BMI license includes performing Karaoke a/k/a lyrics presented to the AUDIENCE, not just the Host (private) or Singer (public). However, as stated on our page above, the Host must OWN (i.e. PROPERLY PAID FOR) the songs they play. A $400 HDD with 35,000 songs is NOT LEGAL,no matter how you want to justify it. If you are caught with one of these, after legal court proceedings, you can loose ALL your stuff you use to put on shows, including the vehicle you transport the "copyright violation" goods in. Don't do it.

3. Read my #2 answer. Your assumptions are incorrect.

Why is it vague and hidden? NO DOWNLOAD SITE IS LEGAL for purchase and use in the USA. Out-of-Country sites such as "T..." has, is illegal to use in the USA (they are in Canada so they aren't violating USA copyright law). This is from the Record Companies (Sony, BMG, Arista, etc.) who also don't recognize that CD technology has been replaced by electronic, instant download over the Internet. That is why they won't survive the "technology shift" if they don't wake up.

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

I clicked on a link from Karaoke Warehouse and went to ibackTracks. Under terms of use it said: "The tracks distributed by iBackTracks recordings are for personal use and live performance. However, elsewhere it said that downloaded tracks do not include lyrics. If you purchase a custom disk however, you will receive lyrics if they are available. I could not find a notice that said their tracks were not for public use. (I am sure it is there, I just couldn't find it

Music minus vocals, or remastered music with a license to do so are legal. Showing the lyrics is not, without distributing it on a CDG format disc. KW is a Karaoke Producer, that pays the licenses to produce CDG songs/discs. They have five (5) MTU Karaoke Pro Workstations they use to create their CD+G songs. They are fully legal in all their dealings, to our knowledge. It is possible that they have licensed this "ibacktracks" to digitally download their music, but not their synchronized lyrics... unless iback is out of the Continental USA.

Originally Posted by billyo

those mp3 karaoke disc only come with the vocal guides, but no graphics, it's a step back, like using the old cassette tapes, one side with vocals, one side with tracks, at least those cassetes came with lyric sheets

Can't comment on what "those karaoke discs" contain... mp3 w/o lyrics, or CDG w/lyrics. With lyrics is legal as I stated above.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

The catch here is they do not include the lyrics in their downloads so actually these are not MP3+G as Karaoke Warehouse would lead you to believe. Even if you order them on CD they will not have the display the lyrics, thus they are CDA files and not CDG. If they have the lyrics available they will send them on a sheet af paper included.
So because they do not include the lyrics then they do not have to pay all the same royalties as normal and lawsuits because of the confusion in the industry. Even IBack is not the producers of these so you have no idea where they were produced. Doesn't sound to good to me.

Dale is correct. If they did a "digital download" of CD+G, they would be sued. The "mechanical rights" that Karaoke Producers pay do NOT INCLUDE digital download rights. Greedy, greedy,greedy Record Labels want to make more money for digital downloads.

Originally Posted by RandyMcCharles

Yes. There are links to IbackTracks and SingAnyTime. (I didn't expect 2 and stopped looking after finding iBackTracks). SingAnyTime has a clear license statement: personal use only. They also show who manufactured each track. I saw ASK & All Star, though possibly they have others.

Karaoke Warehouse produces under the ASK (All Star Karaoke) and All Star labels.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

I did the samething and didn't see the second link. Sorry Skybird.
As far as this license statement it is actually the samething that is stated on the CDs too. No one has questioned that statement for doing karaoke and no lawsuits have been charged for the way we use them.
With that said the question really is not how we use them, but whether they have gotten the song files from the existing CD vendors (buy a CD then sell the songs as downloads) with permission to sell them on line or have produced their own and paid the proper royalty fees through the musicians organizations. This is where the legality question comes into play.

As stated above, KW produces the ASK/All Star songs/discs. They are fully legal. Copying songs from other producers and digitally downloading would bring the wrath of the Courts down on Ibacktracks, if they are distributing OTHER than ASK/All Star.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

Not true. Most manufacturers set an MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) and it is usually higher than what most sell the item for. When they do that then the manufacturer's price is usually that price and everyone else is slightly lower or that price.
In the case of MTU, they do not have any authorized resellers so have not set a suggested retail price.

Karaoke Warehouse is MTU's only distributor today. Sometimes their prices are not updated when we change our models. That's why our Hoster Ruggedized Laptop is priced higher than we do... we recently pointed this out to them.

Originally Posted by ddouglass

You get support and upgrades the same way we all do now....from MTU.

Yep!