Short Clip

[goonie227]

When Importing and playing a singers disc I noticed tonight that Host3.312 is playing just a short clip of the next song on the singers disc at the end of the song it's supposed to play not a problem just wondered if anyone else has noticed this.

[bobcox- with the Lord]

no i havent. and i have imported quite a few from singers disc. Bob

[admin]

When Importing and playing a singers disc I noticed tonight that Host3.312 is playing just a short clip of the next song on the singers disc at the end of the song it's supposed to play not a problem just wondered if anyone else has noticed this.
What track were you adding from a Singer's Disc? Was it the last or next to last on the disc?

[dclark]

What track were you adding from a Singer's Disc? Was it the last or next to last on the disc?Also, what is the setting for the hardware error correction (HWEC) for this drive? "Yes" or "No"?

[goonie227]

What track were you adding from a Singer's Disc? Was it the last or next to last on the disc?
I Duplicated it tonight at home on the first fifth and eighth track
from three different discs. HWEC is on.

[goonie227]

this glitch sounds alot like what is going on in microstudio could it be the same

[bill moore]

I was helping a user/m8 that upgraded to 3.312 a week or so ago
the clip or pop you are hearing is sound left over from last song

what we did was to capture the sound/pop/glitch that we heard and ran it in the sound board we repeated the glitch in a loop so we could make out what it was and in fact it was audio

The way we heard it the most was to stop a song after the audio started playing and hit stop. then go to the next song in the list when you started the next song is were you would hear the sound

now here is where this should help you narrow it down
if you let the songs play all the way out you will not hear this pop/sound

but if you stop the song before the audio is done and go to the next song
when you hit the play button you will here this sound

I do not know how mtu wrote the code but it looks like the buffer is not being unloaded all the way (or its trying to load it self twice)

lets say there is a meg of audio left in the buffer on the song you just stop
and say the next song you are playing is only 1.2 megs
and let's say the buffer is 3 megs are both in the buffer at the same time???

does the buffer do a dump after the stop button is hit or does the buffer
get dump when you hit the play for the next

he did not have this before the upgrade and I think he was using I think he was using 3.30X cant recall

just thought i would pass this on hope it helps

p.s the song's in ??? are kma's from the hard drive not from the cdrom

by the way since there is player code for each format could it be from the changing between players ??? just asking

[dclark]

Bill,

Thank you for the very informative post! With all of that information, there should most definitely be a way to zero in on the problem. It sounds very much like it has to do with not initializing buffers or buffer pointers after a song is prematurely stopped.

Anything else that anyone wants to add to this will be welcomed, too. Thanks again.

[admin]

Bill Moore, thank you for your in depth details.

Our programmers have been cranking our major upgrades to Vogone 3, Microstudio 3, Hoster 3.313 and working on Hoster 4 (for next year). My brain... and I'm sure our Beta Testers also... is in awe at how fast we have be cranking out the new code and fixing reported problems. Its been a real trip this month! :c

From your analysis, it does appear that a change made in Microstudio and ported over to the Hoster code didn't get handled properly under the "stop early" condition. I've documented this to be worked on first thing next Monday for 3.313 Beta 3. :)

Great job helping us do our jobs! :w

[bill moore]

Sorry i forgot one thing

It all so shows its nasty head more so if the audio starts before the video.

It seames that a lot of early sunfly sf001 to sf100 have a lot of songs that have audio starting before video.

You might want to take a look at how hoster is handling the fact that audio is starting then the video starts.

BUT ITS NOT JUST SUNFLY !!!!

[bill moore]

Just wondering if you guys found anything on the audio/buffer/stop button
problem ????

[dclark]

It all so shows its nasty head more so if the audio starts before the video.

It seames that a lot of early sunfly sf001 to sf100 have a lot of songs that have audio starting before video.

You might want to take a look at how hoster is handling the fact that audio is starting then the video starts.Bill,

Would you be so kind as to zip up one or two of these sunfly songs and attach it/them here? We are having no luck recreating this, and we believe it would be helpful to have an example of a KMA that causes this. Thanks!

[bill moore]

check your pm

[bill moore]

Star Discs 1 - 72 were manufactured to start the Audio prior to the Graphics
starting.
All Star Discs 1 - 72 are imported from CD and, therefore logged in the
Songs.MDB as a CDCDG Import.
Upon starting PLAY of any Star Disc 1 - 72 CDCDG Imported Trk, the Audio
begins, then stops, then starts over from the beginning.

It's as if Hoster's CDCDG Player sees the Audio only...starts the
Audio...then, when the Graphics queue in, Hoster's CDCDG Player references
both, Audio and Graphics, and plays the Song, from the beginning, as if that
was the actual starting point.

After the Audio has started the second time, it continues, in SYNC with the
Graphics, to the end of the song.

All tested Star Disc 1 - 72 CDCDG Imported Trks play correctly in Hoster
v3.301

[gd123]

Current v3.313 still has music starting and stopping at the beginning of the songs on Star Discs 1-72 imported via CD. (CDCDG)

[ddouglass]

Did you try re-importing them with 3.313?

[bill moore]

if hoster is messing up from one version to the next !!!

so are you saying that we should have to import 40.000 songs I think not !!!!

the new version of hoster what ever version it is should work with all prior
version's of hoster kma's' we should not have to re import any song that where done on a previous version

and to answer your ???? not we did not try re importing the songs
what we did do was break down the kma so we could check the wma
which is clean as a bell

[ddouglass]

if hoster is messing up from one version to the next !!!

so are you saying that we should have to import 40.000 songs I think not !!!!

the new version of hoster what ever version it is should work with all prior
version's of hoster kma's' we should not have to re import any song that where done on a previous version

and to answer your ???? not we did not try re importing the songs
what we did do was break down the kma so we could check the wma
which is clean as a bell

No, I was not saying you have to re-import 40,000 songs. I don't believe there are 40,000 songs on 72 Star disc in the first place. It was only a suggestion to try on one of the discs to see if that corrected it. I am sorry if I upset you with my suggestion.:s The only reason I said that was "IF" you had imported them with 3.311 or 3.312 then the glitch may have been recorded since there were problems not discovered until after release. This often happens with software programs due to the complexity of the code.

[bill moore]

I just get tired of people looking for the quick fix (or trying to blame it on the hardware this is not the case its the software)

and we have found sound choice and other brands that do the same thing

the fact is that hoster has in the past had this problem it seems that every 2 or 3 version this pops up some report it others don't

I am just trying to help my m8 out here who has hoster and there are two other kj's that are just across the state line that he knows who has had this same problem

I have heard this on 4 diff system's now I am sure sooner or later they will find this we have sent them the kma's

even if re importing did fix the problem that is not the answer
you should not have to re import just because they changed the player code !!!
this is a good company they will find this little bugger I am sure of it

[admin]

I just get tired of people looking for the quick fix (or trying to blame it on the hardware this is not the case its the software)
Bill, you are one user and we have thousands of users. When only one or two are reporting a problem, and we cannot reproduce it, there's about a 99.99% chance it IS the system installation, however you want to call the system.

We tested the files you sent from every angle we could think of, including what you listed above. We never hear any audio out of line. We did notice that all your songs we received have the audio starting immediately. We even stopped them, played other songs with silence to show up any buffer that may be remaining from the prior song, but there was no audio at the beginning in the silent area. We then again played one of your files and heard nothing left over from the prior file with silence at the start (we played into it until audio began before stopping).

and we have found sound choice and other brands that do the same thing
OK, that tends to confirm it is a system problem. Again, we are trying to diagnose a problem that appears to only be on a few systems... your mate's included. This is the hardest type of problem to identify the cause, and it takes very close working together. You are getting angry with us which will prevent any of us from helping you. Calm down and work with us.

Frst also understand, this problem will not be solved quickly. Expect a delay and you won't be disappoited.

the fact is that hoster has in the past had this problem it seems that every 2 or 3 version this pops up some report it others don't
I can't say we agree. We never had this "reported" before 3.312.

I am just trying to help my m8 out here who has hoster and there are two other kj's that are just across the state line that he knows who has had this same problem
Noted...thanks for reporting that.

I have heard this on 4 diff system's now I am sure sooner or later they will find this we have sent them the kma's
Our tests didn't show up the problem. If it had, you'd have a fix the same day to test out.

even if re importing did fix the problem that is not the answer you should not have to re import just because they changed the player code !!!
Agreed, and no one meant to imply that. Ddouglass suggested this to gd123 just to see if it could be a problem with files imported with 3.312. A problem like that did happen in a prior version, and the audio "damage" was in the file, not the player. That's all he's implying here.

this is a good company they will find this little bugger I am sure of it
Thank you... you are right. We try very hard. As soon as we can create the problem, we can fix it. So far, we can't so we have to wait for more input from others who might reveal the "key" to what is happening. We've got critical deadlines on other projects. We'll address this Hoster problem again in January.

I sincerely thank you for the excellent details you have provided. I couldn't ask for better. Regretfully, we can't create the problem yet. :r :s

[bill moore]

From reading your other answer's in the forum I thought you would blame it on hardware
I have been working in a recording studio for 25 years I have seen programs come and go and I don't know how many times the company's blame it on the hardware and 1 to 6 months later they find the cause of the problem which was in there code

Just because 1 to 10 users have the problem doe's not mean it is not real and that doe's not mean it is hardware.
for my m8 3.301 is just fine that player code doe's not have the audio problem in the player
so I don't under stand how you can say it is hardware or his unit

The plan fact here is he has hoster version's that play the songs just fine
and any version after that has this audio problem

His hardware has not changed at all nor has he added any thing in the unit
to change any setting

So call it what you want put the problem on his unit and the other user's if you want too that is up to you.

I put a lot of time in to this to help him and in the long run to help you guys at mtu

my personal thinking here is that your import processes from past version
is conflicting In some way with this new player code and re importing may be the only fix which is not a fix!!

I have run a lot of test on the files and the files in ??? run just fine on other software I have taken them back from kma and made into mp3+g
and imported them from the hard drive and they work well sound great

ill say it one more time so no one miss under stands the files in ??? were imported from clean cd+g disc on 3.301 and before these are the files that have the problem.
and they only have the problem in the new version's
( just thought of one thing here i wonder if the compresion rate has anything to do with this they were done in 96 i dont know what the other users that have this problem used)

I hope you find this I think it may have been there from the start
who knows for sure
please understand I am not angry not at all

I am use to software company saying it's not the software

it's just like taking your car in and they cant find what you are talking about and ten miles down the road it dies on you

sooner or later you will find it
I think I have done all I can for you and my m8

I have sent all the details nad info to your programmer and that is about it for now if we find something else I will send it to him
I am just dealing in fact's here I really don't want to debate this is this forum my time is short

good luck god bless all and have a happy holiday

[Beavis]

when i have a problem with something i cant get fixed, i always reformat and that takes care of all the problems.

[gd123]

I temporaily removed the Songs.MDB to a Backup Folder.

I imported STAR DISC #36 Trk #03 directly from the Manufacturer's Disc as BookID Root #1.

The BookID assigned is 103.

Added BookID 103 to the Playlist.

The first time that PLAY was initiated, there was NO Audio repeating at the BEGINNING of the Song.

After Stopping the song, I clicked PLAY and the beginning of the song repeated itself.

Every time the song was Stopped and Started, the Audio repeated itself at the beginning of the Song.

I left the Song in the Playlist, CLOSED Hoster, REOPENED Hoster, and Clicked Play. Again, the Audio repeated itself at the beginning of the Song.

Conclusion:
v3.313 still has the original problem.
v3.313's CD Import does not fix the problem.
I suspect the CDCDG Player Code, as Closing Hoster should have Cleared any Audio Buffer but had NO effect on preventing the REPEATING Audio at the beginning of the Song upon REOPENING Hoster and starting PLAY.

[ddouglass]

I have to agree with Bill Moore on one point, that this is not a hardware problem. However, even if it is a software problem it may or may not be a Hoster problem.

The statement has been made that the changes to the Hoster player are causing the problem, but as far as I can tell MTU didn't make any changes to the "player" portion of the program (correct me if I am wrong Admin). Much was changed, enhanced and added but the core player hasn't changed.

So what could be causing this problem of leftover data in the audio buffer? Could it possibly be the settings for the sound card? Could it be a non-standard sound card? Microsoft updates (or lack of), firmware provided by the sound card mfg and even bios firmware from the motherboard mfg all can affect these settings. These are the reasons you see here in this forum so many suggestions to keep your Windows updated and your hardware (CD Drive, Video, Sound, and Motherboard) firmware updated.

GD123 - You have proven that re-importing doesn't help and thanks for trying.
Bill and GD123 - I know you say it can't be the hardware and I don't disagree, but would you please list your motherboard/processor and sound card in a post here. There may be some of us out here that have the same or similar equipment which can help with the troubleshooting. Bill if you can please try to find out from all three you have been working with.
It would be good to know if they and GD123 have checked for updates from above mentioned too. This can narrow down the search.

I have no doubt that the MTU staff will also be looking at the code to see if there is some way to fix it from their end too.

[bill moore]

Point if hoster 3.301 and at least 3 version before do not have this problem and which we have loaded at least 3 version and they are all ok

Then we load the last 3 version then how can someone say its the hardware

I am challenging anyone to tell me why the player in 3.301 and before sounds ok and any thing after 3.301 has the problem

let's use common logic here !!!!!

Maybe its not the player code what else in hoster was changed that could have this problem MAYBE THERE WAS SOMETHING CHANGED IN HOSTER NO ONE WAS TOLD ABOUT!!!!

Or may be it goes back further then 3.301 and it is just now acting up with the changes that have been made after 3.301

ill will be glad to send the files to any one who want to try
just tell me were to send them

And yes all up dates are done
sound blaster live on one
sound blaster z card on the other
at least one gig of mem on each
matrox ,ati 9800 I think
at least 2.6 intel p4 proses
like I said hardware is not the problem since I can get hoster to work with no problem from 3.301 and before

Let me share one thing with you new cars
there is a problem with new cars and that is computers
you and I could have the same car everything the same
but you are having a problem with your car shifting from first to 2nd
you take it in when you get there the services mrg says to you
there is a software update for cars having the problem you do
he says they are
only using this update if the car is having this problem (not all do)

now this happen to me so I know that two cars can be the same
all the way down to the color and come off the same line at the same time and need two diff version of software

he tells me this happins alot now with new cars that have the same every thing made at the same time with the same parts may need some kind of update to the puter

[ddouglass]

Obviously you aren't listening either since I said I agreed it is not the hardware but could be the Software that runs the hardware. I asked for the hardware only to understand what kind of system we are discussing as unlike cars there are many versions of computers, operating systems, and settings.

Since this seems to be an isolated problem to a very few users then it must be the Hoster software that is causing the problem. Is that your point?

If version 3.301 (3.302 and 3.303 don't work either?) is the one that works for them then maybe they should stick to that version until 4.0 comes out next year and try again then.

[bill moore]

If there are ten diff unit's and all ten have the same problems
with playing the kma's from cd import and you can play them fine
on any version 3.301 and before what do you think ??

look I like you are just trying to help out some one who does not know a whole lot about things like this and I have been around computers for 30 years and have seen stranger thing's then this that were code related

so I would like to stop this conversation for now and lets see what is found if anything

good luck to you who ever you are don't know if you work for mtu or just a user but since I see you post to all most every post in here I think you work for mtu good luck in finding the problem

have a happy holydays

[admin]

Bill, thank you for your details. I understand what you are saying. It appears there may be some problem in Hoster that is worsened by certain hardware/software system configs. I think that may be what is happening here. Clearly, 3.301 works fine and 3.313 doesn't for your mate. That's pretty good proof that something in Hoster changed. :c

The other fact is thousands of others have downloaded 3.313 and this is the only Thread reporting this problem. It happens on a very few systems. Go figure! :r

We can search code till the cows come home and not find anything. If we have the problem appear in our testing, we can nail it in a skinny minute. The files you sent up earlier did not re-produce the problem at MTU, so sending more files probably won't either. That's another reason why we all have been saying it is the system config.

We've got a really tight deadline the end of this month that we are working on now. Given the few systems (including your mate's) that exhibit this, I can't shift our focus back to Hoster at this time.

We'll document this and take a look in January at what code changed. We'll compare 3.301 to 3.313, in the code areas that could possibly cause the problem you are reporting.

From the current facts, I expect we will find something deep in Hoster. Just can't do it right now. Sometimes, waiting turns up more folks with the problem and then, one day, a single post contains the key we need to find and solve it. So, we're watching for who else sees this and reports "different" details.

Return your mate to 3.301 for now. That's the only work-around I can offer at this time.

BTW: Ddouglass is not an MTU employee. He is one of our Beta Testers, so he is "closer" than most to what is going on at MTU. He's a fine fellow, and a great technical diagnostician. He has helped many solve problems. I know he's just trying to overcome your and our frustration. He knows MTU hates to have a single problem lurking out there for anyone to hit... and so does he. :c

[ddouglass]

Bill,
As Admin said I am not an employee of MTU, but just a customer like yourself who has a bit of experience with computers and electronic equipment (I have lost count at 40 yrs :r ). I have always hated frustrating problems like this and I tend to take to it like a dog to a bone. All I was trying to do was to eliminate all possibilities knowing MTU is undermanned and overworked trying to make the best possible programs for us.
Bill from me and mine to you and yours have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.:g :c (Where is the Santa smiley??)

[bill moore]

I thought I read that you change the way hoster handles the video
so it could run on more v cards

now that said I took a look at two files that I think are more likely to make the audio problem happen

what seems to be happing is hoster is having a hard time loading video and audio at the same time
once you hit the play button

so the songs that start's both audio and video at once or songs that start audio and then try to load video while audio is playing (only at the start of the song)

this is some place you should also take a look at

[gd123]

Many users do not take the time to Post.

The problem is mentioned and is current.

Many Users have shows that do NOT sing Country.

Many Users play background music as the next song is queuing. They wouldn't hear the problem.

Many Users are poor KJs...wouldn't care.

Many Users wouldn't know a problem it jumped up at
'em.

Many Users don't care to Post. Why mention the problem again...if it's already stated.

etc..