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View Full Version : Sound Choice's Legality Position


Rickyokie
February 22nd, 2003, 07:12 PM
I have'nt posted in a long time, but I wanted to pass on a letter I recieved, ... this is from a correspondence, I have had with Sound Choice director/General Manager Tom Turner. Even though this coversation was about CAVS technology... it is ideaologically the same thing as what MTU is doing..

ADMIN NOTE: Read my second post below before reading these letters from Sound Choice.

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From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net

Thank you for taking the time to write, and please excuse my slow response. I have been out of town for the past two week at a series of trade shows.

The issue of putting music on hard drives is a very complex one. Certainly we at Sound Choice understand the desirability of that for a KJ - the portability, ease of use, inventory protection, and so forth. But there is an extremely significant issue that has not yet been addressed by the management of CAVS, or any of the other hard-drive suppliers.

That issue, very plainly, is the inability and/or unwillingness of these manufacturers to protect the music contents from being copied. The other issue is the ability of anyone to load a set of songs on multiple CAVS units.

You mentioned that you currently own two systems, and that you do twelve shows. Now you are buying your first CAVS unit, which you will get pre-loaded with music on the hard drive.

I am assuming that you will buy a second CAVS unit at some time in the future, for your second system.

When you buy your second unit, do you have to purchase another set of the music software, or will you load the same music from your first unit onto the second unit?

Does your purchase agreement with CAVS permit you to make unlimited copies of the one set of music that came with your original machine?

Do you have a release letter form the music manufacturer, explicitly giving you permission to make copies of your original music purchase?

I am sure that you also realize how easy it is to duplicate the contents of a hard drive. I also know that CAVS provides their customers with instructions on how to load their own music on the CAVS units. There are two very fundamental issues with the capability to do this.

The first is that it is completely illegal. Copyright law (for all copyrighted materials - books, music, artwork, etc.) expressly prohibits the use of copies for ANY commercial use. That means that a copy -either onto a disc or a hard drive - cannot be used for any commercial purpose. A copy cannot be sold, given away as a promotional item, played on a for hire or promotional basis, and so forth.

The second issue is even for ethically fundamental, and that is the protection of the KJs themselves. Hard drive system manufacturers do not care about the sales of the music - they are only interested in selling the hardware. They do not care if an unscrupulous KJ buys 10 systems, and one set of music for the entire 10 rigs. They do not care that this KJ, with his much lower cost of (illegal) music per rig can now underbid the legitimate KJ, and run him out of business.

Sound Choice has been fortunate to have the support of the KJ industry for many years. There are many hundreds who have been loyal customers for nearly as long as we have been in business. We feel a moral obligation to continue to try and produce the best possible music for these customers, and to make every effort possible to insure that these loyal customers have a fair opportunity to be competitive businessmen.

So that, in a nutshell, is our position. We will not permit the installation of our music on any hard drive machine as long as there is no system to prevent the music from being copied onto another system. When the hard drive system manufacturers begin to feel a sense of responsibility to the KJ industry, rather than their own sales, and add copy protection to their machines, then we will discuss installation of Sound Choice material on a hard drive system.

I hope that this has answered your question. Please feel free to request that CAVS put copy protection on their machines - pressure from their own customer base is probably the only manner in which to get this accomplished. Until it is, I am sorry to say that you will not see any legal Sound Choice songs on a hard drive system anywhere.

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Tom Turner
General Manager


..................................................................................................

From Sound Choice
Tom Turner - General Manager
2/19/03


To Rick Berry
XXX-XXX-XXXX
rse@tah-usa.net



I will try and go through all of your questions in a little more detail next week, but I wanted to address a couple of issues. First of all, the archiving issue. I have no problem with archived copies, which is indirectly addressed by the Fair Use Act that Joe Senter of S.P.I.N. referenced on MTU's site without explanation.

You are allowed to make a copy for PERSONAL use - singing in the shower, in the car, etc. Just can't use it commercially.

As for archived copies, you are certainly permitted to make them - but they are for record-keeping purposes (hence the term archive). You cannot use archive copies instead of your originals in a show. All the folks who want to hang their hats on legal entitlement to making copies try to use this argument.........

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End Of Letter...

I just thought that you all may like to hear a point of View Close to all of us From someone that actually does know what is going on.

This was recieved through a personal email and not directly through SC... If someone wants to offer rebuttle I will ask Mr. Turner if I may pass his e-mail on to you ...or I can forward any future posts to this letter on to him.

Rickyokie

admin
December 17th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Have you ever received a replacement CDG disc for a faulty manufactured Sound Choice disc... without paying retail or higher for it?

If so, please post here in Sound Choice's defense. Conversely, if you have experienced this treatment, we encourage you to post also.

What does Warranty mean if a newly bought disc doesn't even have tracks recorded on it? Not delivering what was advertised and that you paid for... IS ILLEGAL, unless they replace it when informed, no matter if it is within their "warranty period" or not, and do it for free!

I encourage Sound Choice to clean up their business practices that are posted throughout this MTU Forum by their own customers; that we hear about every month. We used to get quarterly calls from Sound Choice senior managers requesting that we delete these "negative posts". We willingly complied until they threatened us for no reason. After that, we refuse to hide the truth to protect the guilty.

In the past, SC had great music... new songs out early so you could be first in your area... they encouraged the market to grow.

They were the only company with the foresight to go after true bootleggers who made thousands of illegal copies of their discs and sold them... a blatant disregard of US Copyright law. When you have this type of illegal activity going against you constantly, after a while you become paranoid about everyone. :e I know, that is why we have spent 4 years developing our Registration Code security for our software products. :r

However, IMHO, they have crossed the line and used intimidation to control the market, and your minds. To our knowledge, they have lost at least one court case where they tried to take a Karaoke Host to court for using copied CDG discs instead of the originals. The Judge threw Sound Choice (aka Scleptones, inc) out of court. That should have made them back off, but KAPA and SC's General Manager continues to threaten all of us. I don't know what other position they could take, given their past. MTU is trying to offer the industry a new direction, for those who want to work with us.

nitelife
December 18th, 2003, 12:14 AM
Applause...very loudly: Many questions concerning SC's position, and true copyright law are vauge at best. For years I have heard management at MTU simply say to boycott SC's product......easier said than done.
SC's position is just plain bogus, and its nice to hear MTU take a firm position in writing.
SC's disc quality is low...this is true, but the music and graphics quality is higher than most other brands. Unfortunately this is what the karaoke host's customers want...and they don't care how long the discs last or what you have to pay for them. It only makes sense to use back up copies to preserve the original...whether using " hoster " or back up discs produced with microstudio.
I personally stand behind MTU and the efforts they use to protect the industry. As for SC's attempts to prevent copying of their discs.......it doesn't work. Or should I say, that their copy protection is easily broken. There are plenty of web sites out there that prove it !!
Personally I have taken the position of using SC's products only as a last resort...when I can't find the same song by another producer of similar quality ( sound & graphics ).
Sound choice is literally shooting themselves in the foot on this one...Several other hosts I know also refuse to buy SC's discs for the same reason...Its just too expensive to buy a disc you have problems protecting. Time was when SC was the disc of choice, but that is changing VERY QUICKLY !!

gduns - with the Lord
December 18th, 2003, 08:18 AM
Read this post, and decide for yourself. Besides Priddis produces quality at a good price.

http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3131

wackyquack
December 18th, 2003, 12:18 PM
I am posting this link. I have replaced several damaged disks from sound choice. Two of those were out of the Foundation. I only paid $5.95/disk for S&H.

http://www.soundchoice.com/info/replacement.shtml

I understand everyone's position on making "back-up copies" However, I don't agree with one set of originals and 10 copies on 10 different rigs. This happens alot in my area. So there are two sides to every issue.

ADMIN NOTE: Buying 1 set and using copies of it on 10 rigs is blatently Illegal. That will get you into court and ALL your equipment confiscated.

I will tell you that I have over 4,000 songs now and that 95% are SC. I think the musical arrangements and quality are still the top of the line.

crazycarl
December 18th, 2003, 01:24 PM
Why doesn't Sound Choise allow Pro Kj's To rights to copy there songs. There could be a minimum number of years in bussiness,and proof of it an a fee for each copy. Then they would know whom has copied and make sure they comply

jimbo
December 18th, 2003, 01:55 PM
I also feel most people feel a 1 to 1 ratio is fair. Not 1 cd for 10 different rigs.

Priddis will actually replace your damaged Priddis disc at no cost. Just send them the ruined disc and they will send you a new one. You pay to ship the disc to Priddis, and Priddis even picks up the shipping on sending a new one back to you.

admin
December 18th, 2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by wackyquack
I am posting this link. I have replaced several damaged disks from sound choice. Two of those were out of the Foundation. I only paid $5.95/disk for S&H.

http://www.soundchoice.com/info/replacement.shtml
[snip]

I'd be interested to know when did you get these replaced? I know their policy has been what I stated above, as told to me by many SC customers, so maybe they woke up and changed. I'll be the first to applaud their making this change! The industry needs good Sound Choice policies! :c

wackyquack
December 18th, 2003, 09:23 PM
These replacements were within the past month. I even called sound choice and spoke with a rep. to be sure I understood the policy. And it was just as in the link I provided.

Just some clarification! In my original post I did not say that I was using 1 copy on 10 rigs. I used that as an example of what is considered illegal.

Even though I have made a backup of every disk I own, I still use my originals since Sound Choice changed their policy. I know it doesn't help for a disk that is no longer in production, but then I have my backup

admin
May 12th, 2004, 06:07 AM
MTU ask IPJustice.org to research if making backup copies is legal, including copying to a hard drive. Read this post on their legal research results (http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=25020). You'll be glad you did! :w

bobcox- with the Lord
May 25th, 2004, 11:57 AM
i have 4 systems for karaoke, sys 1 has 24000.00 songs in it. i buy 8 disc a month just to keep up to date in these syst, i have had to deal with sc to get replacement of disc many times. if you send them 8 bad disc. they charge you 6.95 S&H per disc. yet they all come back in the same pack. what's up with that. also if disc is out of print your stuck with it.

admin
May 25th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by bobcox
i have 4 systems for karaoke, sys 1 has 24000.00 songs in it. i buy 8 disc a month just to keep up to date in these syst, i have had to deal with sc to get replacement of disc many times. if you send them 8 bad disc. they charge you 6.95 S&H per disc. yet they all come back in the same pack. what's up with that. also if disc is out of print your stuck with it.
1. Greed does interesting things to people. Next time, TELL their support people you want to pay ONE shipping charge and see what they say.

2. That's why you need Microstudio to backup your out of print discs. :w

bobcox- with the Lord
May 25th, 2004, 12:09 PM
I have been a KJ since march of 1999 This is what I do for a living,
i am a retired Ironworker. so i have delt with sc for 5 yrs. my last replacement disc was about 5 months ago. I no longer buy sc disc. they are not as
good as they think they are.

jimbo
May 25th, 2004, 01:02 PM
Priddis has a great replacement policy. They charge you nothing to replace a disc. All they request is you pay the postage to ship it to them, they will pay the return postage to you. Great customer service. Their discs may cost a little more, but the discs are guaranteed for life.

bobcox- with the Lord
July 7th, 2004, 08:44 PM
When you go to sc website why dont they tell you about how they will replace your illegaly, made by sc, media clog disc. it seems to be a secret. i have about 60 of them. they will replace them i am told for $5.95 each S&H. what about the S&H i paid when i bought their illegaly made disc. they didnt have permission from philips to use media clog did they. maby a class action suit would get our disc replaced free. that would only be fair. evidentily sc is not. BOB