Pay to Play

[MaddMatt]

All:

I have been trying to research the Karaoke business to find a niche. I have not found any threads relating to a "pay to Play" or "Pay to Sing" approach.

Does anyone out there go to carnivals, town festivals etc and charge $1 for people to sing? For $2 you could give them a CD copy of their performance.

Think of how many people attend these things (5k-50k per day) and what they spend money on. Could you handle 10 people per hour over a 36 hour weekend? More?

I realize that you could make more doing a bar gig or private party with less work but if you are sitting at home making $0 or working a weekend making $750-$1,000 and handing out business cards/ making contacts would it be worth it?

I was just curious if anyone had tried it

[jaddams]

Hello MaddMatt

It is illegal to record Karaoke singers using copyrighted material (soundtracks) to give away or to sell, without prior written permission from the copyright owner. :g

Jon

[MaddMatt]

Oh well, so much for my idea there.

Has anyone tried just charging per song?

At a recent trade show I saw a couple of manufacturers that had coin-op karaoke units that were self contained like a jukebox.

[MaddMatt]

Ok this takes me back a little but I found a cassette that I had made at a local amusement park about 15 years ago. I had purchased the cassette after singing in their studio. Was that illegal?

I have seen alot of KJ's out there and a bunch of them offer to burn a cd of your performance for memory's sake. I have also seen videos of your performance being offered.

Is there any circumstance that this is legit?

[jaddams]

Originally posted by MaddMatt
Ok this takes me back a little but I found a cassette that I had made at a local amusement park about 15 years ago. I had purchased the cassette after singing in their studio. Was that illegal?

I have seen alot of KJ's out there and a bunch of them offer to burn a cd of your performance for memory's sake. I have also seen videos of your performance being offered.

Is there any circumstance that this is legit?
Not unless those KJ's either, own the rights to the music, and lyrics, or pay royalties to the copyright owner(s).

It's called theft of intellectual property! :g

One cannot just take somebody else's property and resale it without paying compensation to the owner(s)!

Jon

[George]

The use of an unlicensed copied product is illegal. The copyright laws are very clear about the fundamental legalities of copying copyrighted materials which includes many other products than music. Basically, the law permits you to make an unlicensed copy of a copyrighted disc for your OWN PERSONAL USE only. If you want to listen to the copied disc in your home or your car, that is legal. You may not make an unlicensed copy of a disc for ANY COMMERCIAL USE. That means that you cannot make an unlicensed copy as a gift, as a promotional item, for sale, for use in promoting another product, for use in a show or publication, and a myriad of other commercial applications. If you are using the songs on a disc for any reason other than your own personal listening, you must use the original disc.

IN ORDER TO USE A COPY OF A COPYRIGHTED PRODUCT, YOU MUST HAVE THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER. Many manufacturers have Licensing Agreements for the use of their products in various applications. If you want to use a song or disc in a commercial application, you will need to contact the manufacturer and apply for the licensing rights for your application.

http://www.karaokeantipiracyagency.com/faq.html


George

[MaddMatt]

George and Jon:

Thanks for the replies. You made it perfectly clear.... one more question though.

Is there some way to get permision thru ASCAP to do this? Or is there some other governing body that controls this?

Thanks

[jaddams]

MaddMatt,

Originally posted by MaddMatt
Is there some way to get permision thru ASCAP to do this? Or is there some other governing body that controls this?
MaddMatt,
I am just a karaoke fan. :g In my opinion, your questions should be directed to ASCAP. I am sure they'll have the right anwers for you.

Jon

[George]

Matt,

I agree with Jon, but I'd bet you inadvertantly called it when you named this thread. You'll have to "pay to play". I'm purely speculating on that one, I'd bet it would be the case when permission is being sought for gainful purposes.

George

[MaddMatt]

Thanks guys.

I helped book a KJ into a festival that we are doing. He was planning on doing some shows throughout the day and charging per song with random prize drawings throughout the day. I'll update him on the legalities and let him look into it some more.

I was hoping someone else out there had tried this kind of thing before at a festival /fair. I find it hard to believe that I am on new ground with this idea.

[Wayne White]

I looked into this once. Most of the 6 Flags studios & self contained recording booths have either paid for the right or are using their own copyrighted music.

Since most of my music is Sound Choice, I contacted them about doing recordings at Carnivals. I think at the time it was only $300 per month to buy this right. That was several years ago, the price may have gone up, but, I'll bet you can still do it. Of course, if you wanted to use other discs, you would need to buy their permisson too, which is why I wrote it off as a bad idea.

Wayne

[danny_g]

there is a group up imn my area that claims to have the rights to use Chartbuster songs in recording- I made a cd last AUgust through them. SO it has been done before.

[MaddMatt]

So it seems that I need to go through the CD companies then.

As you said, that shoudn't be a problem as long as I have all the same discs.

hmmmmm.............

[Alan Bingham]

Originally posted by MaddMatt
All:

I have been trying to research the Karaoke business to find a niche. I have not found any threads relating to a "pay to Play" or "Pay to Sing" approach.

Does anyone out there go to carnivals, town festivals etc and charge $1 for people to sing? For $2 you could give them a CD copy of their performance.

Going back to your orginial message:

I went to a show a few weeks ago out of town, and the KJ there did a very interesting thing, The show was from 9:00pm - 12:00am on a Saturday night, at Midnight, he said the show was over and that if people wanted to continue the sing, they would have to pay to sing a song, I inquired as to the price and it was $10.00 a song.

I do not think the bar was paying him at this point so I understood why he was doing this, the people continued to sing, and at about 1:00 or so I took off, the show was still going strong.

Where I usally go, the show gets slow some times around 12:30 or so, and the manager shuts down the show, but the place has pretty much emptied out by then any ways, then other days, the place is jamming and they shut down at 12:30 so you never know just when the show is going to end.

Alan.

[MaddMatt]

Wow!

$10 per song? That seems like a lot. But if people are willing to pay it, why not?

The event was over the 4th of July weekend. I haven't heard from him how it went yet but I will check it out and let you know.

The idea was to charge per song for a carnival type event. I know alot of you guys work for $150 for a 4-5 hour event. This was 2 day event for 20 hours total. Setup and teardown only once. If he got a few hundred people to sing then it was worth it financially.

I'll let you know

Madd Matt
www.maddmatts.com

[shortrounder]

Hello Matt,
Was reading so old post tonight and found one you did in July about doing song at fairs ect.Was just at the L.A. county Fair.
(Los Angles)There was a booth where you could sing a song and they made a disc for you.It cost $10.00. I looked at their book and the were using more than one kind of disc.If they had permision that I don't know.Hope this is clear I am almost asleep.I enjoy your post,you really get everyone going.

Shortrounder

[MaddMatt]

For the record, I don't try to get everyone going, it just kind of happens sometimes :)

I have seen similar things myself this past summer where Joe KJ is setup at a fair or festival and allowing people to record their live performance for a fee. Usually it was between $3 and $10. At one fair it was free to sing but he charged to record. Most people paid for the CD

I think the key for the average KJ to stay in business profitably is to make changes. Whether that is finding new venues for their services or entirely new business models, there is too much competition for KJ's in the bars.

Madd Matt

[nreel]

I realize MaddMatt was originally referring to who has done a gig at carnivals with respect to recording/charging for songs, and I have read info, here, on CHARGING for songs after a Karaoke GIG has ended, so I just wanted to relate my situation.

I only do Night Club Karaoke Shows. At the end of my PAID time, I continue as long as people are willing to PAY-TO-PLAY. That is to say, and this is very important - which is a fine line - I CHARGE for my TIME.

I never CHARGE someone to SING A SONG! If you charge per song, and a BMI or ASCAP or SESAC representative is IN-THE-HOUSE, they may expect you to pay them a cut for your having made a profit. Besides, what comprises most of your Karaoke system? It is the DELIVERY components that are 100% yours not the music, which BMI, etc. claims is not yours.

My time includes someone who may want to sing their own song, without music, or someone who may want to tell a joke, or someone who may want to just talk for 3 minutes, or so. After your PAID time, anything goes to make a BUCK.

This is why, on two nights each week, I am available, to the CLUB, for 6 1/2 hours. 9-1 is the regular Karaoke show (usually 4-hour Gigs) and 1-3:30 is on my time. I usually can earn an extra $60 on a weekday and $100 on a weekend day.

Some may argue that that is not enough money for 2 1/2 hours extra work each Gig, but I don't mind - It's money and that extra money pays for my overhead, i.e. 9-volt batteries for wireless mics, gas to and from Gigs, Food to and from Gigs, Request Slip printing, etc.

Think about it, that's $160/week or $640/month or $7,680/year. What extra could you do with $7,680/year?

Norm

[MasterJP80]

What the guys are saying about asking the customer for money for a burned CD is illigal. However, unless I am reading the question wrong, it is not illigal for a host to charge for a singer to sing. It is no different than getting paid by a private client or bar to do a show. The only difference is that you are getting paid by song sung. Making copies no. Making money yes.

[gduns - with the Lord]

A song, is a song, is a song. By copyrite laws change a line, or a lyric, it is not the same song.

If you recorded someone singing a song from a chartbuster disk.

the words will not appear. therefore it is not an illegal copy of their product.

since words do not appear, why can you not sell a recording of the singers work. There will be nothing on the disk recerencing any brand, of Mfg.

anyone have an answer on this thought.

[jaddams]

{i]Originally posted by Gduns[/]A song, is a song, is a song. By copyright laws change a line, or a lyric, it is not the same song.

If you recorded someone singing a song from a chartbuster disk.

the words will not appear. therefore it is not an illegal copy of their product.

since words do not appear, why can you not sell a recording of the singers work. There will be nothing on the disk referencing any brand, of Mfg.

anyone have an answer on this thought.
Now we are really taking the cake, beginning tomorrow morning, I am going to go into the music business.

Let’s see, I’ll start by changing a few words on Beethoven’s 9th and then I’ll call it Addams 1st. They I'll do a few Wagner’s and just for the heck of it and because I like popular music, let’s change a few Sinatra’s, Celine Dions and a few others.

With all the music out there, I doubt I’d ever have to do any thinking to become a musical genius, just change a word here and there, replace a chord now and then and BINGO, here is a brand new song. Could you guys imagine the possibilities? Why bother with buying CDGs? Why not just record the tracks put our words and sell them away?

It cannot be done., legally that is. When someone puts notes of paper whether these notes make sense or not, it’s consider an original work and as such it’s protected by the copyright laws for the life of its author plus 70 years after death.

There are certain exceptions on copyright and its called “fair use,” fair use does not mean we can lift anything we want and use it someplace else. There is a big different if you lift a few pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica or if you lift four lines of a six lines poem.

If you hummm a song on a motion picture or television soundtrack. Not words, no band, just humming a song. You STILL have to pay royalty for that use.

Here is the bottom line: If you want to charge singers to sing at your karaoke show, then do the decent thing and pay the royalty that the original author so rightfully deserve.

Sincerely,

Jon

[kevin7007]

what about DJS AND KJS THAT USE THier COPies
for the other shows keep the org.. at home there is alot of them.
?????

[slsides]

a kj around here used to offer the service of recording a performance to cd-r. she may still offer it, dunno, haven't asked in a couple of years.

she seemed to have done a bit of research, and the fee was paid for the blank media and the time spent recording the songs to the media (she was very specific that the fee was not in any way associated with the purchase of music). you could get all of your turns burned onto the disc, and i think the amount was $10-15.

Shaun

[ddouglass]

Shaun, it still is not legal. The only way you can do it is if they bring their own karaoke CD and sing to that. They then have the purchaser's right to do so. You can not record them from your songs as only you have that right. It would be the same as if you made a copy of your karaoke songs (or any music you own) and gave it to them. That is piracy.
What your local isor was doing is illegal, regardless of how she states it.

[slsides]

I'm not making an opinion statement regarding anything. Just providing a bit of info as to how I've seen things done in the past.

[ddouglass]

I'm not making an opinion statement regarding anything. Just providing a bit of info as to how I've seen things done in the past.
I didn't think you were. Just don't want anybody reading this to think that is a good idea.:g