Getting started with Vogone

[nashjar]

Alright, I am betting a number of you have been doing this for awhile and are probably quite good at this by now. I would appreciate any assistance you care to give...

I just purchased Vogone, Keywrite, Karaoke Home Producer, and Microstudio. I have not had much success saving a file in Vogone with the vocals reduced.

I am saving the songs directly from CD to .wav file, using Microstudio. I then open the file in Vogone, and am able to reduce vocals using the low and high buttons. When I try to write to file, however, I always get a copy of the original .wav file.

I am sure I am missing a step... Can anyone tell me what I am missing? Thanks a bunch! :)

ADMIN: When you click on the Write file button the new file is created in the directory on the hard drive that you selected.

If you click the Play button in Vogone it is going to play the original file, not the newly created file!

To play your new file in Vogone, you must click the Select Input File button, locate the new file you just created and open it.

[tlindzon]

Have you designated a unique name for the output file? Did you push the write file button? The output is suppossed to be a .wav file. You write it to .cdg with KHP. Good Luck

[George]

Nashjar,
Assuming your original song is in "Songlist", when you select the input file, say for Patsy Cline's "Crazy", you'll note the input file reads as c:\songlist\crazy.wav
After you've processed it through Vogone and want to save your work, you stop the playback and click "Select Output File". A "Save As" box pops up, with a place to enter the name you wish to give the output file.
I always type in the same info as the input file, except I identify it as having been through Vogone by adding a VG. This prevents overwriting the original and makes the new file easy to find.
I would type in c:\songlist\crazyvg
No need to type in .WAV as the program will do that.
Click "Save"
Click "Write File" at the top.
Dialog box pops up asking if yoy wish to write file, click "Yes"
when done, dialog box pops up telling you it's finished. Click "OK".

Hope this helps,

George

[nashjar]

Yes, I am naming the output file something different than the input, but everytime I click the Write file button, I get a replica of the original .wav file. I think I am missing something in the creation process.

Here is what I have tried:

- I select the Input file (a .wav file created with Microstudio)
- I create an Output file with a different name.
- I then adjust the Low/High controls. (If I press Low, and listen to the song, it greatly reduces the vocals)
- This is where I am a little lost. I can play the whole song by clicking the Low button, and then I press the Write File button, but still end up with the original file. Which buttons actually create the file that will be written to file?

Thanks, all! :g

[George]

Nashjar,
Are you following the same sequence I outlined above?

George

[nashjar]

George, I am not sure. I really don't think I am understanding how to 'process through Vogone'. I have tried using the 'Play Vogone' button and then clicking Write File, to no avail.

Thank you...

[George]

Nashjar,
After selecting the input file, unclick"Create Mono File For Karaoke".

Click the Low vocal reduction control box. The song should start playing. Slowly slide the Low slider to the left until you hear nothing.

Click the High vocal reduction control box. Slowly slide the high slider to the right until you hear nothing.

Click Play Vogone. Repeat the Low and High steps until you get maximum results.

Increase output level back to normal by sliding the Output Amplitude slider up until it is close to it's original level. You can switch back and forth between "Play Original" and "Play Vogone" to check this.

The Remove slider lets you remove less than full removal when desired(reducing a lead Sax in an instrumental, etc)

Now comes the part where you will get conflicting information. There is a school of thought that Karaoke players do not play stereo. Not so. Most will play stereo and most of those that won't will automatically convert stereo to mono. It is therefore unnecessary to check the "Create Mono File For Karaoke" block, which compromises the stereo effect. Leave it unchecked.

Now, depending on whether you're in the Play Original or the Play Vogone mode, simply click Stop. Then go through the proceedure I outlined earlier for selecting and writing the output file.

The only thing I haven't mentioned are the Loop Start and Loop End sliders in the play control section. These are there to prevent you from having to play a song over and over until you get it processed. you set the Begin Loop slider at the beginning of the vocal portion of the song, and the End Loop slider at the end of a major portion of the vocal and that section in between will keep repeating until you're done.

Take care,

George

[tlindzon]

George,

You told us more about Vogone in one page than reading the entire manual cover to cover. Maybe there should be a place in the forum entitled "One Page Instructions by George". I'm sure you can write one page for every MTU product.

But, I've been thinking one instruction was not given - If you want to hear the VG.wav file in Vogone one needs to make it the input file and use the play the original tab. Or, of course, play it in Home Producer like MTU intended.

Tom

[nashjar]

George, thank you for your assistance. It is still not working at all for me. Unfortunately, MTU support is only open while I am at work, and this makes it difficult for me to call them.

I will try Goldwave. I hear it may be a better product. What a shame I have already purchased the whole Microstudio Suite! I had hoped to receive a response here from an MTU Admin...

[George]

You guys are too kind, thanks.
Nashjar, don't misunderstand regarding Goldwave. It in no way replaces any MTU product. It is an audio editing software that lets you perform various functions that alter audio files to suit your needs, including inserting silence, removing 'pops" and "clicks" from audio files you've transferred from older scratched lp's, and many more.
I would never tout a competitive product on another company's website. I think it is indicitive of low ethical standards.Just my opinion.

Once you become more familiar with the MTU line, you'll have no regrets regarding your purchase, I certainly never have.

Have you ever heard the expression "I was so busy fighting alligators I forgot I came to drain the swamp"? I do know that's the position the guys at MTU are in at the moment, due to pressing deadlines on a major product development. They are a small company and they wear many hats. This is no excuse for them, just a reason. Also, support may not have gotten involved seeing the detail I went in to, figuring the problem was being taken care of.

I can't figure specifically what's not working for you. Is the program just not working, or perhaps are you using some songs where there's not much apparant removal? That's a likelyhood, as the degree of removal can swing from almost total to almost none, and all points in between depending on the recording.

Another possibility is perhaps you got a corrupted download, or installation if it was off a cd. Try uninstalling, reboot, and install fresh. Good practice to re-boot after uninstalling to clear out any files in memory.

If that doesn't do it, due to your work schedule, try emailing support with your problem.

support@mtu.com


Thanks again,

George

[infoby]

My Friend,

Richard Faith had written a vocal remover that works in ASCII Format it's a great job retaining the music its major draw back is it's painfully slow. He looked at my Vogone product and was quite impressed playing with it, he found some suggestions you may want to consider, here they are.

Here are some ideas I have come up with regarding Vogone.

1) In order to optimize the cancellation for songs wherein the main vocal is not exactly center panned, it would be good to add a slider control for the user to balance the channels.

2) Even when the amplitudes of right and left channels are made to match each other precisely, as would be accomplished by (1) above, perfect cancellation may be impossible because of mismatch on the time axis. An example of how this can happen is a song that was mastered on an analog tape machine with lateral misalignment of the record and/or reproduce heads. I have experimented with this to some extent, and have written a program that receives the input data in ASCII format (here Vogone has the superior advantage of working directly with the .WAV file) and allows one channel to be delayed with respect to the other by a desired (integer) number of sample intervals (e.g., 1/44100 second and integer multiples of that value).
This processing is helpful in a situation where the best null that can be accomplished with amplitude balancing contains a significant amount of residual sibilance from the vocal. How this could apply to Vogone would be to provide another slider which would normally be set at or near center position, and which would then be tweaked in real time by the user to optimize the rejection of higher-frequency parts of the main vocal.

3) Although these are rare, there is occasionally a recording wherein the main vocal is recorded OUT of phase in the two channels. With such a recording, any attempt to reduce the vocal by subtraction will be counterproductive. To handle cases like this, an "Invert/Normal" switch could be added to flip the polarity of one channel only.

4) I believe that Vogone owes much of its speed advantage to the fact that it works directly on the .WAV file instead of requiring input in ASCII format, and also to (here I'm speculating) using integer math internally within and between stages of processing. I believe that if all the internal processing were done in double-precision, floating-point format, better sound quality would result, although disastrously at the expense of speed. However, here is how the best of both worlds could be brought together: keep the program just as it is (but perhaps with features 1~3 above added) as "fast" processing, wherein the user could tweak all the sliders to get the best possible vocal cancellation, and then re-run the processing in a "slow" mode, using the settings last used in the "fast" mode, with the only difference being that the internal processing would be double-precision, floating-point math. A real dyed-in-the-wool karaoke nut would be typically more than happy to let his computer crunch on a file while he goes shopping or to a movie, if the result is a truly superior karaoke CD.

[nashjar]

George,

Thanks for the suggestion. I had been told by friend that Goldwave did a decent job at vocal reduction.

I don't believe the problem is the songs, as was also my first thought. If I press the Low key to play the song, the vocals are barely audible. The problem is saving the song with the reduced vocal. I don't believe the steps in the manual are clear on exactly which buttons to click, etc. to create and write a file with reduced vocals. The impression I get from the manual is that I should be able to adjust the sliders to the desired levels, then click Write file.

I will try the uninstall, that is a good idea. I was surprised that there was no weekend telephone support through MTU, and had been under the impression they would support the software through this messageboard...

FYI, I am having no problem with the Microstudio and KHP software, and haven't yet worked with the Keyrite...

[George]

I get the impression that you're not following the proper sequence. Try doing what was outlined for you above, step by step. It should work.
Take care,
George

[Serge]

george,
i have vogone 2 and i followed your instructions. i dont have a box titled Create Mono File For Karaoke. when i click the low button and move the slider to the left everythings okay until i click the high button and slide the slider to the right. nothing happens when i do this. maybe its a different way between vogone 1 and 2 but please help me. thanks

[George]

Serg,
What version of Vogone are you using? The one I have is 2.103. To check this out,click on the little Vogone symbol at the upper left of the program and then click on "about Vogone".

Take care,

George

[Serge]

i have version 2.1.0.4

[George]

Serge,
Something's not right. You should have a small white block labeled
"Create Mono File For Karaoke" located just above the "Read Manual" box.

It sounds like you're using the sliders correctly, to the left reduces the low frequencies and to the right reduces the upper ranges(after clicking the appropriate box).

Responses vary from song to song, and mode to mode. Must be a stereo recording, and preferably one recorded with the vocal center panned at the studio. In the higher ranges, the frequency response of the speakers, and the hearing level of the operator play an important role. You can't work with what is not being heard. Don't take this wrong, I'm not making any assumptions regarding your hearing range or that of the speakers, but these are all variables.I've noticed on mine I have to be extra critical when working with the higher frequency slider than I have to with the low.

Perhaps sliding the "Output Amplitude" slider up might help hear the higher responses. This should be done anyway to compensate for decreased levels.

You might try messing around with some different material, and see if the results change. Sorry I've not been much help.

Take care,

George

[Serge]

Well thank you for trying to help me.

sincerely,Serge

[George]

Did you locate the "Create Mono File Fort Karaoke" box? If so leave it unchecked.

Take care,

George

[nashjar]

Well, here it is October 26, and I have yet to have any support from MTU, despite my numerous requests, via this forum and direct email sent on September 5 at 7:55 PM. I do not accept busyness as an excuse. I have waited now for almost 2 months! This is completely unacceptable!

I can easily reduce vocals using Vogone while I am listening to a .wav file. I cannot save these files with the vocals reduced. I am still waiting for support, MTU.

[MTUSUPPORT]

Nashjar,

George seems to have explained it exactly as what should be working correctly.

When you click on the Write file button and then try to listen to the new file, what program are you opening this file in to listen to it? If you are just clicking Play in Vogone it is going to play the original file, not the newly created file. Is the file actually being created on your hard drive? You can find this by going to Windows Explorer and looking in the directory that you are saving this file into, and make sure that it does exist there. If it does exist then double click on it, it should then bring up Windows Media Player to play this file. If it then plays and the vocals are reduced then you know Vogone is working, if not then you know its not. Let me know what you find.

[nashjar]

I am playing the created file in Real One. I do know exactly how to navigate my PC. I am a systems engineer supporting content management systems for my company's clients, including Windows Server support, etc. I am more than competent as far as handling a PC and most software.

However, I still cannot find clear cut instructions on the order of the steps to take to reduce vocals and save the file with the vocals reduced. The instructions that come with the software seem haphazard, at best. I have simply asked for direct instructions on the exact steps, but no one can seem to answer this question.

[George]

Sorry, you were given clearly written step by step instructions on how to use Vogone earlier in this thread.

George

[nashjar]

George, I didn't want to seem rude, but I guess have to come right out and say it. I appreciate your attempt, but your earlier post did not help me a bit. That is why I tried to quietly email for support directly, but have become increasingly aggravated that I can neither get them on the phone nor do they answer email requests for support.

"After you've processed it through Vogone and want to save your work..." This particular line assumes I know exactly what you mean by processing it through Vogone, but this is exactly the piece I am asking for instructions on.

Again, I appreciate your attempt, George, but it just didn't answer my question.

[George]

"Processing" meant after you have completed the vocal removal/reduction procedure, which also was explained in a post on the same day. Trying to solve the problem, but can't figure what's falling through the cracks. Perhaps if you started fresh and wrote each step you take down, and post them up to and including where you get bogged down, I'll be able to spot something. Fair enough?

George

Wait a minute, something just clicked. You say you can't save the work, yet you also say you are playing the "created " file in Real 1. You must be saving then, right, so what's the problem ? I'm starting to think you may be working with some material that will simply not show much vocal removel, but the program is working. That is a distinct possibility.

[nashjar]

George, I am not here to fight with you, and do not really understand why you are trying to pick a fight.

I am asking for MTU Support for a product I have purchased from them. You seem disturbed by the fact that I want support from the company that manufactures this software, but it is my right as I have paid for the suite in full.

Thank you again for your attempt at assistance.

[MTUSUPPORT]

When you do the "Processing" here are exact steps, in less detail than is in the manual.

Step 1) Click the Select Input File button. Find and open the .wav file on your computer that you wish to process.

Step 2) Click the Low button. This begins playing the selected wav files Low Frequencies.

Step 3) Drag the slider to the right or left that is beside the Low button. You want to do this until you hear the least amount of the Vocals in the Low Frequencies. Once you are happy with this, Click the Stop button to stop play.

Step 4) Click the High Button and do the exact same as in Step 3 by moving the Slider Next to the High Button. Then click the Stop button to stop Play.

Step 5) Now make sure that the Slider for Remove is set to Max to start with. This was the default.
NOTE: If this is set to MIN it won't remove anything at all. This setting can only be changed if the Modify for Karaoke is unchecked. Once you have done this click the Play Vogone button. This will then begin to Playback the entire processed song.

While the Song is Playing with the Play Vogone button you can make any adjustments as above. Once you are happy with the way the song sounds. Press the Stop button. You can also go back and forth between the Play Original and Play Vogone buttons to hear the differences. If the Volume is Low on the Play Vogone version you can increase this by using the Output Amplitude slider by moving it up the scale while playing increase the amplitude.

Now once you have finished with the Song, click the Create Output File button, click on the Original Song name, then add something such as v or Vogone to the end of the songname. This way you know this is going to be your new file. Then click Save. Once you have done this, you must then click the Write File button to the right of this button. This will then ask you Do you wish to create a new File? "Yes or No". Click the Yes button to create the new file on your Hard drive. Then you will see the Slider at the top called Location will then begin to move. You will also see the colored Peak Meter beside Output Amplitude moving. When the Processing is done, you will see a dialog box pop up saying: Done Processing File!. Click the Ok button and the file has now been written to your hard drive.

The new file has now been stored in the same directory that the original file was located in. You can now go and find this file on your system and play it in any player that you wish. It should sound the same as the "Processed File" did in Vogone.