The Lawsuits Have Started In Virgina

[ronw]

Beware KJs, Slep-Tone Entertaiment and Sound Choice Studios Are putting spotters in restaurants, bars, grills, etc. They where at one of my shows in September 2009. I was served with a lawsuite on Jan 13 2010 for displaying the Sound Choice marks without right or license at my karaoke show. You can click on the following link to view suite. :m

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-vaedce/case_no-1:2009cv01390/case_id-249441/

[ddouglass]

Are you playing illegal copies of their music or do you have your originals?
Looks like they hit everybody including the establishments.

[ddouglass]

Ron you may find this document useful in your lawsuit.
http://www.uskaraokealliance.com/images/SoundChoiceKaraokePressRelease9-08.pdf

[ronw]

Yes i have my originals I was just filling in for someone that night, I run a clean show i dont play any singers copied songs kind of sad

[bryant]

Yes i have my originals I was just filling in for someone that night, I run a clean show i dont play any singers copied songs kind of sad

Didn't they ask you for the originals of the songs they witnessed...I mean how else can they say that you were displaying "unlicensed" material?

[ronw]

Hi Bryant i run my shows of a laptop no one said anything to me at all that night the lawsuite said they just blend in they sing songs take pictures of your songbook like i told dale, I was just filling in for some one that night for all i no they could have been there to get him i no he has more then 20000 songs in his books in the lawsuite sound choice has as a settlement offer to by there Complete Catalog of 5,200 songs for 6,500 dollers and they will drop the lawsuit thats what i dont understand

[muzicman144]

I have stated many times that i really believe 98% of all Kj's have a least one illegal file. My bet is Sound Choice is putting all its marbles on the table using that same thought. That being the case, it is like extortion, pay me $5-6000 Dollars, or, join the KIAA, and your troubles will go away. One file may cost a KJ that much in damages in an actual court case, and it has happened, although a different case was made. I believe Sound Choice is one of the best karaoke producers out there, but, maybe the KJ's of this country should start a boycott of SC's products until they get out of the game of extorting the very people who have supported them over the years. In any other case, if someone threatens you with a lawsuit, you no longer do business with them. Wake up out there!!! Use the product you have, but do not do business with them until they get OUT OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!
JMHO
muzicman144:m:m:m:m

[Musicman51]

I tend to agree with bryant. If they didn't ask you to produce those originals, then you aren't illegal. However, on the other hand, they really don't have to ask you anything in order to file an infringment lawsuit, winning it? thats another matter. Seems they are targeting those with computer shows. Now as far as i'm concerned, a judge will laugh them out of the courtroom when it comes to the suits against the club owners. There is no way for a club owner to know what is on that hard drive. You could show him one hard drive, and use another. Nope..i betcha this won't pass the legal smell test, but wil be interesting to take a watch and see..... :s
Walt, i'm with you. I'm all but done with the Sound Choice folks. If business is bad enough for those at SC, that they have to "Sting" kj's and club owners, i just don't care to be associated with them. In fact it's been awhile since i've purchased a sound choice CDG. Perhaps this will boost sales for "KH Pro" & "Microstudio".hehehe :w

[Musicman51]

Sorry for the double post dale. But i read that Sound Choice letter, and excuse me for laughing. I really enjoyed the part that read "we will give karaoke show host every opportunity to prove that they have legally purchased Sound Choice re-recorded tracks prior to contacting venue owners/managers". What a crock... since when does someone acused of doing something illegal have to prove he hasn't? hilarious. Ron, this is that money hungry RIAA at work here my friend, not sound choice. Sound choice is along for the money. I don't think they waltzed into your club and said "poof you're illegal". Something is missing here. A few suggestions for others. Don't show these morons anything. Not a hard drive, your original library disc..nadda. Make them show cause to a judge why they think you are illegal, thats the first step a discovery hearing. Second, if it got that far. You have a right to view the original licensing agreement sound choice claims to hold, not only for your songs they claim you use illegally. But for sound choices' entire library. Goes to the credibility of sound choice, if they produced even one song that they cannot produce a legal rights for..lawsuit is over. Remember ron, they have the burden of proof. The fact they want to buy you off tells volumes. Looks like they are testing the legal waters, and making you folks a scapegoat. I would sell my home, vehicles, file for bankruptcy, and live under a bridge before i'd pay these guys a dime. There is a right way, and a wrong way to go about doing things. And clearly sound choice has opened a can of worms they may in the near future wished they hadn't....I think walt has a great idea..boycott these guys. Apparently sales are down at sound choice. They really should be going after these guys that sell those loaded hard drives on ebay, and craigs list. And those big entertainment companies that run a dozen kj's, off one set of original disc. Pardon me...i'm nauseated at this whole mess, i think i'll get a sound choice disc out and barf on it...lol. I think billyo has the right idea..start doing this for fun...not making any money at it anyway..lol:t
Forgot to mention, i've been told to pass on to you ron, that sound choice has to prove damages. In your situation, the worse case scenario should be, that you must purchase the songs you are using of theirs that you hadn't purchased. Sound choice is out that sale of those songs for each hard drive. Not their entire libray..what crooks...lol yep sales are down...lol:w

[billyo]

:):) i don't think any of us is making any money or gotten a return from our investments yet, i've spent over or under $12.000 on my gears , buying new stuff every month (yup every month )..sound choice can come to my show anytime, i dont think they will be able to get in, since most of the shows i do now are in a country club and that is a private " invitations only " place, the only " public place" i do is a Thai, Japanese Restaurant that after 9pm is for members only " i do have some non members that comes in, which is my regulars when i used to do public restaurants..one suggestion thing i could think of was if you have new faces that comes in to your shows, and if they keep requesting a sound choice tunes, that's maybe a sign that they are scanning your library , just tell them that you don't have it, or make them feel degrated, tell them that sound choice sounds bad, that they sounds like thin can, that you've deleted all of them,and if they asked you why you still have them in your songbook, just say you havent updated your books yet, i dont think that they will ask to see your library,

[billyo]

i apologized for double posting, i think the reason why they( KIAA and Sound Choice ) are looking at these things, ( besides the money ) it's because there are some KJ's that do a lot of shows and has people working for them, if you employ 5 people to do shows in 5 diff. venues, of course they will start looking at this,

[billyo]

I just learned that it is 99% legal to play songs/tunes that you bought in a store and that you paid for in a club or infront of people, from what i learned, they said that if you bought it from a store and you paid, lets say $10. for a disc, a portion of that goes to the artist, producers label makers etc. in other words everybody gets paid, and if you play a certain song/disc in a club or infront of people, those people might go out and buy the same disc and, this is what the people who made that disc wants, they want for you to go out and play the songs for people to hear, so i got to thinking Sound Choice might not be paying royalties to the artist and producers who made the original songs,and or may not have enough funds to pay them so they going after KJ's to get that MONEY to pay the original artist and KIAA is going along with them to get some, the latter ( bold letters ) is just my opinion:g:g:g

[Musicman51]

Well these were just some suggestions a couple of well intended kj's up here made was all. They both still use the old CDG disc, and welcome SC and their croonies to their show. And...ummm...i won't mention what they said they would do to them boys after they looked at their disc and decided they are indeed legal. But they are both small independent milk producers. And as i recall part of it was something about cows, and wondering how a person could sit down with a digital camera...well....nevermind.:g

[capnvic]

Ron,

Where were you that night? I noticed Paradiso and Moe's were on the list. Those two places are close to home...It makes me wonder if they are going to be hitting some of the private clubs as well....

[billyo]

Ron,

Where were you that night? I noticed Paradiso and Moe's were on the list. Those two places are close to home...It makes me wonder if they are going to be hitting some of the private clubs as well....


i don't think they will, in my opinion, private clubs are for members only, it's like playing in your own house, unless they are invited.

[muzicman144]

i don't think they will, in my opinion, private clubs are for members only, it's like playing in your own house, unless they are invited.

I would tend to disagree with this statement. ASCAP/BMI?SESAC, etc. has no problem getting their money request in, and, no problem sitting in to hear what is played. A private club does not license illegal acts, IF, these suits prove to have merit.
I haven't seen a private club in my day that an invite was a problem at all. Some are strict, most have no door checkers, nor do they check membership cards. But sueing military clubs such as the Amercan Legion, VFW's etc. is just not a good publicity stunt at anytime, especially during a time of war or conflict (war is war no matter how it is worded)
I believe private clubs are targets just as open to the public clubs are. JMHO
muzicman144:c:c:c:c

[billyo]

I would tend to disagree with this statement. ASCAP/BMI?SESAC, etc. has no problem getting their money request in, and, no problem sitting in to hear what is played. A private club does not license illegal acts, IF, these suits prove to have merit.
I haven't seen a private club in my day that an invite was a problem at all. Some are strict, most have no door checkers, nor do they check membership cards. But sueing military clubs such as the Amercan Legion, VFW's etc. is just not a good publicity stunt at anytime, especially during a time of war or conflict (war is war no matter how it is worded)
I believe private clubs are targets just as open to the public clubs are. JMHO
muzicman144:c:c:c:c

American Legion , VFW is in my opinion not really a private club,since they will sell drinks/food to the public,you could get in to those places as long as you know someone ,which i used to go and i am not a member of the org. i play in a country club which has sec. guard right by the gate and your name has to be listed in what they call guests list,or was invited by a member and still have to have your name on the list. a friend who was supposed to help me out set up my gears at one time tried to get in and they woudnt let him in , till i asked the club mgr. to let him in and put his name on the list.

[muzicman144]

[QUOTE=billyo;98675]American Legion , VFW is in my opinion not really a private club,since they will sell drinks/food to the public,you could get in to those places as long as you know someone ,which i used to go and i am not a member of the org.

The charter of the VFW or American Legion does not allow purchases by non members. The are required to have a member sign them in and they still cannot make a purchase. None that i know of sell food or drinks to the public as it's charter bylaws do not allow this, except on special designated events.
As you and i know well, these restrictions are ignored quite often, yet, they ARE private clubs. You can get into any club if you know someone, which i'm sure KIAA or the Slepps could arrange to get into your private club date without a problem.
They real answer is to avoid buying a Sound Choice Product. Hit them where they are trying to hit you!!!!
muzicman144:g:g:g

[billyo]

American Legion , VFW is in my opinion not really a private club,since they will sell drinks/food to the public,you could get in to those places as long as you know someone ,which i used to go and i am not a member of the org.

The charter of the VFW or American Legion does not allow purchases by non members. The are required to have a member sign them in and they still cannot make a purchase. None that i know of sell food or drinks to the public as it's charter bylaws do not allow this, except on special designated events.
As you and i know well, these restrictions are ignored quite often, yet, they ARE private clubs. You can get into any club if you know someone, which i'm sure KIAA or the Slepps could arrange to get into your private club date without a problem.
They real answer is to avoid buying a Sound Choice Product. Hit them where they are trying to hit you!!!!
muzicman144:g:g:g


a friend of mine played at one of the VFW's at one time and i was able to get in and bought a few drinks, and i also know that they have diff. menu's on diff. days,but anyway that's true all the KJ's should stop buying SC, hit them where it hurts:g:g:g

[ddouglass]

American Legion , VFW is in my opinion not really a private club,since they will sell drinks/food to the public,you could get in to those places as long as you know someone ,which i used to go and i am not a member of the org. i play in a country club which has sec. guard right by the gate and your name has to be listed in what they call guests list,or was invited by a member and still have to have your name on the list. a friend who was supposed to help me out set up my gears at one time tried to get in and they woudnt let him in , till i asked the club mgr. to let him in and put his name on the list.
I beg to differ with you. Most American Legions and VFW do limit who can come in and they usually know who their members are. Members can bring in a guest, but they have to be with that member and cannot enter on their own. Not all American Legions and VFW serve drinks and some who do will only sell to their own members and not to members from other posts.
The VFW I play at is one of the exceptions and is open to the local populace only because we are one of three (used to be two) clubs in the local area. This is not the case in the larger towns around us. By the way Musicman144, VFW National does not even want to hear anything about the canteen most posts have. It is like they want to stick their heads in the sand. The Bylaws that set down the rules are locally produced and are sent to National just to make sure the legal wording is correct.
All that said I know Musicman is correct that the music organizations have no problem getting in any club to check licenses for things like jukeboxes, TV and radio usage. I doubt that the KIAA would have any problem either.

[billyo]

i don't dis-agree with you guys,i've only been in one of the VFW's, i came in with my KJ friend who was playing there at that time, and i didnt have any problems getting drinks ( probably being nice? )..tell you what i'm going to call my friend and i will ask her to make sure ..

[billyo]

sorry guys, i was wrong,it's not the VFW nor the American Legion, it's the Moose Club

[RandyMcCharles]

I am finding it pretty easy to stop buying SC products as they are hardly producing anything new and have discontinued most (if not all) of their custom disk outlets. Most of what I have bought recently is from UK producers: ZOOM, SBI, etc.

[Musicman51]

Dale is right...i've been doing karaoke at the Americian Legion up here for going on 6 years now. Just try walking in alone and not be a member. They will nail you before you even reach the bar. We have more security, then any eagles, moose, or elks club i've ever played in. Infact, guest at our american legion up here, even though they are signed in, cannot go to the bar and order a drink. The person who signed them in has to do the ordering and paying. We do have open food night to the public, but NO alcoholic drinks are sold, also during the public bingo games, water and pop only....

[capnvic]

I beg to differ with you. Most American Legions and VFW do limit who can come in and they usually know who their members are. Members can bring in a guest, but they have to be with that member and cannot enter on their own. Not all American Legions and VFW serve drinks and some who do will only sell to their own members and not to members from other posts.
The VFW I play at is one of the exceptions and is open to the local populace only because we are one of three (used to be two) clubs in the local area. This is not the case in the larger towns around us. By the way Musicman144, VFW National does not even want to hear anything about the canteen most posts have. It is like they want to stick their heads in the sand. The Bylaws that set down the rules are locally produced and are sent to National just to make sure the legal wording is correct.
All that said I know Musicman is correct that the music organizations have no problem getting in any club to check licenses for things like jukeboxes, TV and radio usage. I doubt that the KIAA would have any problem either.
DDouglas is right, as an officer and member of an American Legion post, I would have to abide by all rules and regulations pertaining to guests. I saw the court documents for the Virginia case, if anyone wants to read it let me know and I will post the link....I know that outside of Ron, several of my other KJs are extremely concerned....

[ddouglass]

DDouglas is right, as an officer and member of an American Legion post, I would have to abide by all rules and regulations pertaining to guests. I saw the court documents for the Virginia case, if anyone wants to read it let me know and I will post the link....I know that outside of Ron, several of my other KJs are extremely concerned....
Please post that link. It would be very interesting to see exactly what they are claiming.

[capnvic]

Please post that link. It would be very interesting to see exactly what they are claiming.
I attached the complaint as a PDF document. There is some very interesting if not frightening aspects of this lawsuit.

[RandyMcCharles]

I like the description of how unlicensed use damages the industy for both producer and legitimate KJ. The problem I see is in point 94. "investigators observed Defendants benefiting from unauthorized, counterfit copies". The document seems to imply that all HDs are illegal (point 76) but this will never stand. Courts have already ruled that purchasers have the right to change formats. The defendants will have to produce original disks to show that they are legitimate. Then will then be a battle in court about 1-to-1 format transfer that is probably what Sound Choice is really after. Sound Choice will say that just because a KJ produces original discs doesn't mean that his HD is the only copy and the disks are stored away. This will be a mess. If the jury has any smarts they will say that the vendors product is unmanagable and that the only should be on Sound Choice to make their product less priratable or find other means to encourage licensed use.
I feel very sorry for the legitimate KJs who are being put through this process. They are the sacraficial lambs who are being used to bring the HD debate back to court.

[muzicman144]

It will be very hard to prove these cases as no evidence has been taken other than the plaintiff's "eyes". Any illegal files or hard drives are easily concealed and replaced by a legal copy.
I sincerely believe this is just a follow up on the first letter Sound Choice sent out threatening the venues that hire KJ"s. They openly state that if one who is accused pays $6500., they will be dropped from the lawsuit. This is just EXTORTION under the guise of legitimacy.
Boycott Sound Choice and Stingray. Remember SC sold out to Stingray, who's owner just happens to be kin. This allows Stingray to operate as Sound Choice did, but now Sound Choice can chase these lawsuits forever without fear of a KJ boycott as they no longer produce CDG's. But, remember, Stingray, (aka Sound Choice) is still under the Slep family management, and comes forth like a virgin with no dog in the fight. Bull Crap!!!!!
Boycott Both Companies and any company or organization the Sleps are associated with.
muzicman144:m:m:m:m

[Musicman51]

It's actually going further then that randy. They are assuming every kj that has a show is making a profit off them {SC and the Slep Clan}. Ask billyo how much profit he's made in the past few years. These folks should drag down every piece of paper to show after all the operating expense they make very little in profit. Sound Choice is not the ultra karaoke super disc manufacture they portray themselves to be. Sure a cadillac is a great car, but so is a lincoln. Now that's actually a small point. But they are assuming everyone...no exceptions who has "Format Shiffted" is a theif. I showed this to my neighbor who is also my family attorney. His daughter and her husband attend my shows, and are regular singers in our small community up here. His thoughts about these "moving Papers" {after he stoped laughing}, were, they were "poorly written", "the attorney who wrote this motion was sloppy", and no federal judge that he has ever been before, will read the "Sound Choice Infomercial" portion of this mess". And that's what he called this very shoddy written court motion. He said it appears someone drafted this using a pay to use law site. Like they have for you to file your own will, divorce, and bankruptcy with. And of course we haven't heard the opposing side's arguments yet. Those are the ones i'm waiting to read. My family lawyer said the whole lawsuit was a sham. That these guys are crying in their milk because technology has bit them in the behind. I hate'sa theif to. But hey, i have been a victim of injustice, we all have. Tjhey failed to mention in their suit the strong arm tactics, and forced search's and the very fact, that they themselves have produced CD+G's that they clearly did not own the rights to. The "Eagles" Sound Choice disc being just one of several i'm told. Sound Choice...gather up your marbles, and go home. When you can come back, and learn to be a good karaoke neighbor, reaching out to the legal kj's for a solution to this problem. Then you can come back, and we might....just might...let you sell a few more cdg's....:t

[Musicman51]

One last thought i was going to mention. The term "Marks" in the law suit. Those Sound Choice sacret holy "Marks". Now that mtu has created a state of the art karaoke presentation software program. That can literally mask, avoid, those sound choice sacret holy "marks", in both the title and credit screens. Do you suppose the slep clan might.....naw:r

[billyo]

just got a question about the word "karaoke " i've known for years that it was a japanese term meaning empty orchestra, i was just wondering if they ( SC ) paid to use the word " karaoke " to the japanese people who invented karaoke or copied their inventions...i played in asia for years and i used to see this kind of entertainment back then, before it even became popular in the U.S. now to your question of how much i made doing this as a hobby ?..well lets see, i started doing karaoke when cassette was out, probabbly +_ $5,000, when the disc came out, just updating my gears +_$12,000 not including the disc ,laptops (3 ) 2008 Toyota Tacoma 4 door P/u truck $23,000, camper top $1,000, gas, binders, printer/papers etc..(unknown amount )...doing karaoke, i made.....maybe closed to $1,500 taxes deducted...mind you this is just a hobby , this is not including the tunes i bought from itunes,( 6,000 tunes to date @ a .99/1.25 ea.) and diff. dj. softwares, maybe you're wondering why am i still doing this.if i am not making any money...i"ve been playing since i was 18 yrs. old ..simple i love playing music and also gets me out of the house....

[billyo]

i was just wondering if these so called " marks " can be edited using Hosters removed silence.or since 4.11 has a marquee , maybe all KJ's can typed in " NO SOUND CHOICE DISC WILL BE PLAYED ON THIS SHOW...EVER !!!!! ":g:gon their marquees..

[Musicman51]

Well billyo, sorry to be the messenger of bad news. But if you will look under the thread KIAA Membership, i posted two craigs list links. According to that guy, 80-90% of all kj's are theives anyways. And those who don't make $200 a night for a week night show, and $250 a night for a week-end show, is a theif. So is that Billy Theif, or do you prefer William Thief? hehehe...see how crazy this has become? if it wern't so **** sad, i'd be funny....:t

[billyo]

Well billyo, sorry to be the messenger of bad news. But if you will look under the thread KIAA Membership, i posted two craigs list links. According to that guy, 80-90% of all kj's are theives anyways. And those who don't make $200 a night for a week night show, and $250 a night for a week-end show, is a theif. So is that Billy Theif, or do you prefer William Thief? hehehe...see how crazy this has become? if it wern't so **** sad, i'd be funny....:t


i was making that much , but i also do a lot of charity work, friends parties ( wedding, daughters 18th b-days graduation days etc. all freebies ) if i were to charged people and if playing music is my means i would be charging more than $200-250, i would spend that much in a hearbeat and it wouldn't bother me..i only charged $ 175.-$200 a night but i don't have to pay for food/drinks tabs..the most you can get around this area is $200 since the economy went down, and i stopped playing for a year all the offers i got within that year, was passed on to friends that do this for a living, i only started playing again maybe the last 6 mos. which is only 1 day a week and the country clubs every other week..and if he categorized that as being a thief..well that's he's problem..i know that i'm not..and also what is the diff. bet weekdays and weekends,anyway, you bring in the same gears on both days anyway, set up the same place( area)? sing the same songs..etc.

[RandyMcCharles]

I think what SC is suggesting is that "illegitimate KJs" made lots of money because they did not put out a fortune to buy 6000 licensed tracks. I could not get a feel from the document of how profitable they felt legitimate KJs may be.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was supporting SC's position. I am not. I was just suggesting that they have described their problem in terms a jury can understand, in a few simple four letter words.

SC's problem is real. If they cannot make a profit on CDG sales they are out of business. Piracy, which they have described, contributes to that problem. All of Canada's karaoke producers have gone out of business. None of them credited this to piracy. All of them said it was due to rising license fees from rights holders. Even fees on manufactured products went up so they had to raise sales prices to between $40 - $50 a disc at which point sales fell off a cliff. Result? The Canadian industry killed itself.
SC makes no mention of rising royalties impacting their bottom line, though I am sure that is a big contributor.

I have heard that country music rights holders have not increased fees as much, which may explain why 90% of Chartbuster new releases are country.

SC also makes no mention of increased competition from UK manufacturers, which as far as I can tell are taking over the market. Canadian karaoke suppliers all carry UK brands, most at better prices than SC. I have seen play books here with virtually no SC tracks and I think this is because the KJ only bought cheaper discs (which is often painfully obvious).

I agree that SC is going about this whole business backwards and all they are really doing is just speeding their demise. If piracy is the final nail in the coffin (which it isn't) then the entire industry will soon follow. Because the entire industry won't die but will just go global, SC is clearly wrong.

I mentioned in a post many months ago: the only KJ here in Calgary with HD that I have talked to about licensing says she gets her discs and HD audited twice a year as part of her business licenses. Seems to me that is a far better solution. (She uses Hoster BTW)

[Musicman51]

I have heard that country music rights holders have not increased fees as much, which may explain why 90% of Chartbuster new releases are country.


No thats not the reason actually. Chartbuster is a spinoff from the old "American Accompaniment" in nashville tn. American had a state of the art studio back then in nashville, and went to recording full time and gave up the karaoke aspect of their business, which was all cassette by the way, with the exception of 2 or 3 cdg's. I purchased one of each copy they had left in their library upon their closing up shop. When the FedEx man delivered those boxes of cassettes, my family thought i'd lost my mind. Took all of us about 10 minutes to unload that truck. Great multiplex and vocal track karaoke cassettes. Those old recordings beat anything...anything done today. Using the original musicians on mostly first run original tracks. So now chartbuster is located in Knoxville TN, and uses some of the same nashville studio musicians you hear that play on the original recordings on the radio today. Chartbuster is clearly the leader in country karaoke, just as american accompaniment was before them. Pocket Songs for instance is clearly the leader in big band, and standard music by the way. Pocket Songs are not known for their country releases by the same token. Hope this helps.

[muzicman144]

I mentioned in a post many months ago: the only KJ here in Calgary with HD that I have talked to about licensing says she gets her discs and HD audited twice a year as part of her business licenses. Seems to me that is a far better solution. (She uses Hoster BTW)[/QUOTE]

The last thing i want is the government attempting to regulate, license, and enforce the "karaoke" business. I don't think it will be too long before some town or city is going to require a business license because it is a pretty huge tax loss as most KJ's pay no tax on their income unless they recieve a 1099. We are talking millions and millions of tax revenue across the country. It's got to happen!
muzicman144:f:f:f:f

[RandyMcCharles]

Musicman51, great background on Chartbuster. Thanks.

Muzicman144, I was suggesting the licensing/audit as an alternative to KIAA going around dragging KJs into court. I would rather have the gvt give me the 'good-to-go' than buy a promise from KIAA. Lesser of 2 evils.

BTW Small business in Canada is more rigorously regulated than in the US. I know a guy who started a company and was driven out of business by regulation. He started again in the US and was a millionaire in 3 years.

[Musicman51]

Walt, i agree withya. If this non scense gets too far out of hand, i will sell my gear and git out of it. I'm serious. I'll go back to playing guitar and pedal steel in a band. At my age, my blood pressure doesn't need the excitement..hehehehehe:t

[Musicman51]

As you can see from this photo i'm an old geezer..lol The sweet young lady next to me is my new found love of my life. We met last year at the American Legion where i do karaoke, this is where this photo was taken. She consumes a great part of my time, and my life. A wonderful person. I am so glad to have her as a true friend and she takes great care of me.....George:)

[RandyMcCharles]

Hey Musicman, we could be brothers. I am about to turn 51. Your new love looks like a keeper. Lots of spunk.

[muzicman144]

Musicman51, great background on Chartbuster. Thanks.

Muzicman144, I was suggesting the licensing/audit as an alternative to KIAA going around dragging KJs into court. I would rather have the gvt give me the 'good-to-go' than buy a promise from KIAA. Lesser of 2 evils.

BTW Small business in Canada is more rigorously regulated than in the US. I know a guy who started a company and was driven out of business by regulation. He started again in the US and was a millionaire in 3 years.

I understood that, but, i feel the KIAA won't be around too long. The government stays forever, and you can just make a bet, the government will make you pay. jmho
Just isn't any easy way to cure this problem. It is all about slicing the pie a little thinner to give everyone a piece.
muzicman144

[billyo]

Walt, i agree withya. If this non scense gets too far out of hand, i will sell my gear and git out of it. I'm serious. I'll go back to playing guitar and pedal steel in a band. At my age, my blood pressure doesn't need the excitement..hehehehehe:t


you don't have to do that,as you were saying at your age, you dont wanna go out and travel to diff. venues ( town ) again ..maybe one of the solutions is to not play any SC disc..i myself will put it on my marque that i won't be playing any of their disc..or will buy any of it..and lets see who's pocket will be hurting:g:g

[RandyMcCharles]

If you get too publically anti-SC you may draw their attention and their wrath. I don't know that you want to waste you time on it. Better if you just quietly promote the purchasing bouycott with KJs and singers who buy DGS. Strained sales will send a message bigger than any public outcry.

[billyo]

If you get too publically anti-SC you may draw their attention and their wrath. I don't know that you want to waste you time on it. Better if you just quietly promote the purchasing bouycott with KJs and singers who buy DGS. Strained sales will send a message bigger than any public outcry.


isn't that good to get their attention, this way they will feel kJ's wrath, to let them know that they killing their business themselves..

[RandyMcCharles]

They will get the message regardless with falling sales. They know who their customers are.

Oh. If they hear vocal KJs they will assume they are pirates. If their sales fall, they will know it is purchasing KJs who are upset.

[admin]

We respect Sound Choice as one of the best producers. We hope they are only going after true bootleggers who don't deserve to steal your shows. If you know of a KJ making money who bought a hard drive on EBay for $400 with 35,000+ songs or who bought a hard drive copy from anywhere else (it is illegal) or who swap songs with friends or other KJs, or who downloads CDG songs from MIRC servers, please turn them in to Sound Choice. We need to clean up the industry.

Here are the facts that we are aware of:

1. About six years ago Sound Choice went after a KJ in the Michigan(?) area under copyright law, who refused to settle out of court. The case went to court and the judge threw Sound Choice out, based on their claims. The KJ was cleared.

2. Sound Choice has never taken anyone to court since, to our knowledge and research.

3. They are blackmailing KJs into paying them $6500. If you sign anything as a settlement out of court you are bound under contract law to obey whatever they have you sign. Check with your own lawyer but we recommend that you never sign any contract preventing you from doing anything with karaoke.

4. If you have legally purchased all of the songs you have on your hard drive, to the best of our knowledge and research, YOU ARE LEGAL. Tell Sound Choice you'll see them in court.

5. If you have any illegal songs you did not pay for DELETE THEM NOW. If you are found with illegal songs, pray. That's your only hope.

6. Twice before MTU has paid IPJustice.org to research all current law for your rights as KJs/users of CDG legally purchased songs. Please click here to read their report (http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm). Pay special attention to "format shifting" from one media to another. It happens world-wide every day.
__________________

[Musicman51]

Admin, thats pretty much as things stand right now, as i understand them as well. Might i just add that at this very moment, as i type. Both Sound Choice, and Chartbuster, just to list two, both consider "Format Shiffting" as being illegal. As i have read the legal suit, not one lawsuit was brought against a kj using illegal disc, all had format shiffted. I tend to think both companies are wrong about this, and your legal research is 100% correct. I have been told by my family lawyer as well, that format shiffting is legal.

[Musicman51]

or who downloads CDG songs from MIRC servers,

what'sa "MIRC" server?:?

[RandyMcCharles]

From what I have seen KIAA states that downloads are illegal but were themselves going to introduce legal downloads, one statement stated "in 2009". I have seen nothing from SC yet, but Charbuster has had downloads in beta for a while now and recently added MP3+G (CDG) format. They are charging $5 per track (which seem to me as more expensive than their custom discs). This feels like another case of "we are legal; our competition is not). Most UK brands have been downloading for at least a year.

http://www.chartbusterkaraoke.com/downloads.aspx

[capnvic]

what'sa "MIRC" server?:?
MIRC or ICQ or similar web servers act as a place were file swapping (in particular Karaoke mp3+G) files were being shared out. This is highly illegal, since all the participants are doing is sharing files.

This was being done by some companies like KAZAA and Napster, and see what happened to them, they had to "legitimize" themselves, after the RIAA, the various publishing companies and artists launched lawsuits after them for violation of creative rights. (royalties and the lot)
These MIRC servers are on the fringe and should be avoided at all costs. If you are participating in this music swapping process, you are breaking the law, and there are other reprocussions, such as malware and other nasty little things that could happen from these downloads. I know of several people who have been members of these sites, and while some of them have seen the error of their ways, others still persist in downloading, because they don't want to pay for the disks. I have seen first hand some of the nasty little viruses these files can contain. I will not use copied disks for that reason.

Food for thought...

[Musicman51]

Thanks for the explanation. Please don't list any links we just don't need that kind of thing here. I've never heard of such a site, i have heard of Napster but thats it. Learn something new everyday. Thanks, i will avoid them at all cost. I don't even visit lyrics sites anymore because so many of them have carry a virus.

[capnvic]

Thanks for the explanation. Please don't list any links we just don't need that kind of thing here. I've never heard of such a site, i have heard of Napster but thats it. Learn something new everyday. Thanks, i will avoid them at all cost. I don't even visit lyrics sites anymore because so many of them have carry a virus.
Wasn't planning to list any links, The reason I mentioned KAZAA and Napster is for historical reference, even though they shared music not Karaoke files....Those two companies were involved with some heavy duty lawsuits.

[ronw]

Here is and up date on va lawsuites as of monday 7 names have taken the by out offer of 6,500,00 from sound choice also, Steller Records has jumped on board go to, http://www.stellarrecords.com/ just a big mess i am still fighting :m:m

[ddouglass]

Here is and up date on va lawsuites as of monday 7 names have taken the by out offer of 6,500,00 from sound choice also, Steller Records has jumped on board go to, http://www.stellarrecords.com/ just a big mess i am still fighting :m:m
Did they add their name to the lawsuit or are you saying this because they joined KIAA and now have a CAP program? They have been members of the KIAA since the beginning along with Sound Choice.

[ronw]

They were names allready on the lawsuite and now they have been droped from the lawsuite And sound choice got 6,500,00 for each rig that they have its all about the money, My onley guess is they thought it was the best thing to do, Lawyer fees start at around 300,00 and hour i have talked to two lawyers about my suite :m:m

[ddouglass]

I was meaning Stellar Records. Did they add their names to the lawsuit with Sound Choice?
The lawyer cost is probably what they are counting on, so they can get their settlement. The only problem I see with that is you have to admit to guilt and that is the part that would make me fight them no matter the cost. They had already tried this before in a case up north somewhere and the judge had thrown the case out.
The problem is we don't know all the results from Arizona or North Carolina but my guess is they all settled out of court which is a big mistake. In fact one guy reported (Arizona I think) that Sound Choice had refused to do an audit on his discs and only wanted to settle with the admission of guilt and purchase the $6500.00 set. What does that say about them.
The big question is how do we fight them when most of us are barely making a living as it is?
What did the two lawyers you spoke to tell you?

[ronw]

No steller did not add ther names to sc lawsuite and the lawyers i talked to said it would cost me more with them if it draged out in court because there are so manny named in the lawsuite, And yes 7 of the 45 named in the sc lawsuite for va did pay out the 6,500,00 and have been droped from the lawsuit you can go to www.stellerrecord.com (http://www.stellerrecord.com) to see what they are trying to do

[Musicman51]

I found this on another site, thought i'd just pass one persons thoughts along, what he bases this on, i have no idea. Is he right or way off base?...again, you make up your own mind.


Here are a few more of the myths that exist until this day about pirates:

Pirates charge less
Pirates are bottom feeders
Pirates don't spend money on anything
Pirates don't know what they are doing
Pirates don't keep their libraries up to date
Pirates are not professionals at running karaoke shows and running their businesses

Here are the facts in my area:
The first pirates were people who had established shows and switched from disc to computers
The original pirates here spent a good deal of money on their equipment long before they became a pirate
The original pirates here spent a good deal of money on their libraries before they became a pirate
Some of the pirates are using CAVS systems and don't even realize they are pirates. They run their shows like anyone else and complain about the pirating going on.
The newer pirates can and do purchase better equipment and software than the older shows have because of all their money can be directed to purchasing those things rather than spending $000's on a library. And it is so easy for them to multi-rig; just get more equipment.
One pirate charges more money because he has multiple rigs and has to pay the help!
None of the pirated libraries I am familiar with have any noticeable "flaws"
If there are many dups in their files, so what. A library of 100,000 containing 50% dups still leaves 50,000 unique songs. I have a library of less than 15000 with over 25% dups!
The pirates here know as much about running a show as anyone. Several work everyday of the week.
With the size of their libraries pirates CAN'T print complete books and most don't print any. People have been trained to simply put in their requests because the tracks is there. Hence, the pirate saves even more money by not printing books.
I can only think of 5-6 shows that are run off of discs around here!

So what is the downside for the person who unknowingly hires a pirate? And what is the downside for the person who attends a pirate's show, particularly if they are finding tracks that they can't find elsewhere? And how about singing with some of the best equipment around. For example, are Shure mics and 12" QSC speakers good enough for Karaoke, accompanied by a QSC sub?

And some think SC will help make it go away. Well, IMHO, once SC is done with their audits and out of the picture, the existence of pirated SC tracks will triple..... and the number of pirates will likely increase, as well!
http://forum.mtu.com/images/ourdj/statusicon/user_offline.gif

[bryant]

I found this on another site, thought i'd just pass one persons thoughts along, what he bases this on, i have no idea. Is he right or way off base?...again, you make up your own mind.


Here are a few more of the myths that exist until this day about pirates:

Pirates charge less
Pirates are bottom feeders
Pirates don't spend money on anything
Pirates don't know what they are doing
Pirates don't keep their libraries up to date
Pirates are not professionals at running karaoke shows and running their businesses

Here are the facts in my area:
The first pirates were people who had established shows and switched from disc to computers
The original pirates here spent a good deal of money on their equipment long before they became a pirate
The original pirates here spent a good deal of money on their libraries before they became a pirate
Some of the pirates are using CAVS systems and don't even realize they are pirates. They run their shows like anyone else and complain about the pirating going on.
The newer pirates can and do purchase better equipment and software than the older shows have because of all their money can be directed to purchasing those things rather than spending $000's on a library. And it is so easy for them to multi-rig; just get more equipment.
One pirate charges more money because he has multiple rigs and has to pay the help!
None of the pirated libraries I am familiar with have any noticeable "flaws"
If there are many dups in their files, so what. A library of 100,000 containing 50% dups still leaves 50,000 unique songs. I have a library of less than 15000 with over 25% dups!
The pirates here know as much about running a show as anyone. Several work everyday of the week.
With the size of their libraries pirates CAN'T print complete books and most don't print any. People have been trained to simply put in their requests because the tracks is there. Hence, the pirate saves even more money by not printing books.
I can only think of 5-6 shows that are run off of discs around here!

So what is the downside for the person who unknowingly hires a pirate? And what is the downside for the person who attends a pirate's show, particularly if they are finding tracks that they can't find elsewhere? And how about singing with some of the best equipment around. For example, are Shure mics and 12" QSC speakers good enough for Karaoke, accompanied by a QSC sub?

And some think SC will help make it go away. Well, IMHO, once SC is done with their audits and out of the picture, the existence of pirated SC tracks will triple..... and the number of pirates will likely increase, as well!
http://forum.mtu.com/images/ourdj/statusicon/user_offline.gif

oh,hummmm, well you obviously don't come from Northern New England, because all those "Myths" about pirates are right on the mark, i.e.,none of them have spent hardly any money at any time and they have all undercut all of the legals here, period. and they came ridng on the coat-tails of those who HAVE spent much to get all these shows started in the area in the first place.

[marklwood]

All I can say is, I have spent WAY more than $6,500 on SC disks. If I were starting another system, or just starting out, I would GLADLY pay $6,500 for all of SC's catalog. I paid out more than that for the first 4,000 songs back when I first started.

[ddouglass]

But that is for what they have left after selling the rights to their older songs to someone else.

[RandyMcCharles]

And you don't get the disks. After paying $6500 and pleading guilty in order to avoid losing more that $6500 to win your case, you still don't have the disks. (Pleading guilty assumes you already acquired the files on a hard drive.) Guess your only option is to go beg a copy of an illegal KJ's hard drive :)

[Musicman51]

all those "Myths" about pirates are right on the mark, i.e.,none of them have spent hardly any money at any time and they have all undercut all of the legals here, period.

I dunno, i think pirating cdg disc or hard drives or whatever, is like real life. Normally, a theif is slick, mixes in with others, looks, acts, like a normal person of his own trade. I bet the average pirate can put on as gooda or better show, and have just as gooda gear as a legal newbie just starting out, with no experience. Maybe if i keep watching out for a bumbling, clumbsy, dude, who has beat up gear, a 13" walmart picture tube singers TV, plastic gemini10" speakers which distort with every sang word. Radio Shack mics. Has a libray which boost 100,000 songs but can't find "Hotel California" and doing his show for $50 i have spotted my first pirate. But ya know..somehow i doubt thats gonna be the case.:)

[RIKKI TIKKI]

I was trying to remember what the disc cost was for those early cdg's, but can only vaguely remember what I paid for the early DK's, BMB's, then Music Maestro, Priddus, Sound Choice, Sunfly, American Gold, Dangerous, Hellavadisc, Star Disc, Chartbuster, Etc., Etc., Etc. ( Not to mention the 5 or 6 Manus that I get my Spanish cdg's from.)

I estimated it at $2/song, quite a few years back, and with my meager 13,000 song library ( with about 3500 duplicates ) that would set me back at least $20,000 over the last 17 years, which doesn't seem that bad, until you try to justify starting up in the business today, and wanting to have a huge library to start, and that illegal hardrive with 20,000 songs on it over there on E-Bay for $300.00, and I can see where the nubies would go, before weighing the legalities, or knowing what legal remedies that Sound Choice is now persuing, in order to recap some of their lost revenue.

I can sleep at night knowing that I'm legal, but will jump on anyone's band wagon, that will make it harder for the Pirate's to make a living, by undercutting the legit KJ's. I'll start by showing the club owners/mgmt, what Sound Choice is doing, as it goes after the venue also, if they are knowingly hiring a KJ with an illegal set of discs, or hardrive, and then as a last resort, I would turn in the illegal KJ to the Sound Choice Legal team, and still be able to sleep easily about it. I'll let my hosting skills compete for business against another legit KJ, but I'll also play nasty when it comes to some pirate trying to take the money out of my wallet...:g

[RandyMcCharles]

Interesting point on new startups. I don't know of any around here. All of the KJs have been around for years or work for "Karaoke World" who owns and maintains a large amount of gear including CDG racks (bought at wholesale as they also own the city's only karaoke retail store). The newest independant KJ I know bought her system from a retiring KJ at a good price. The other independants have been around for decades. If I were to 'start out' from scratch it would take decades just to recoup the initial outlay for a good track selection. I think if producers like Sound Choice 'really' wanted to promote legitimate business they would provide their catalog as 'lease to buy' in order to reduce the initial outlay for a startup.

[muzicman144]

I dunno, i think pirating cdg disc or hard drives or whatever, is like real life. Normally, a theif is slick, mixes in with others, looks, acts, like a normal person of his own trade. I bet the average pirate can put on as gooda or better show, and have just as gooda gear as a legal newbie just starting out, with no experience. Maybe if i keep watching out for a bumbling, clumbsy, dude, who has beat up gear, a 13" walmart picture tube singers TV, plastic gemini10" speakers which distort with every sang word. Radio Shack mics. Has a libray which boost 100,000 songs but can't find "Hotel California" and doing his show for $50 i have spotted my first pirate. But ya know..somehow i doubt thats gonna be the case.:)

George, I agree with you totally. I have seen known, confessed pirates doing a first class show, getting top money, and doing it well. Talk all you want to, but, pirate or not, you don't keep doing shows for top money if you can't produce. Accept it, pirates are as skilled as the best of the legals, and in some cases better. If you lump them as second rate entertainers, you certainly misjudge the competition.
muzicman144:c:c:c:c

[Lonman]

And you don't get the disks. After paying $6500 and pleading guilty in order to avoid losing more that $6500 to win your case, you still don't have the disks. (Pleading guilty assumes you already acquired the files on a hard drive.) Guess your only option is to go beg a copy of an illegal KJ's hard drive :)
No you get copies of the discs they still produce, and need to delete anything that is discontinued - and look for a used copy like any other 'legal' kj would.

[Lonman]

I was trying to remember what the disc cost was for those early cdg's, but can only vaguely remember what I paid for the early DK's, BMB's, then Music Maestro, Priddus, Sound Choice, Sunfly, American Gold, Dangerous, Hellavadisc, Star Disc, Chartbuster, Etc., Etc., Etc. ( Not to mention the 5 or 6 Manus that I get my Spanish cdg's from.)

I estimated it at $2/song, quite a few years back, and with my meager 13,000 song library ( with about 3500 duplicates ) that would set me back at least $20,000 over the last 17 years, which doesn't seem that bad, until you try to justify starting up in the business today, and wanting to have a huge library to start, and that illegal hardrive with 20,000 songs on it over there on E-Bay for $300.00, and I can see where the nubies would go, before weighing the legalities, or knowing what legal remedies that Sound Choice is now persuing, in order to recap some of their lost revenue.

I can sleep at night knowing that I'm legal, but will jump on anyone's band wagon, that will make it harder for the Pirate's to make a living, by undercutting the legit KJ's. I'll start by showing the club owners/mgmt, what Sound Choice is doing, as it goes after the venue also, if they are knowingly hiring a KJ with an illegal set of discs, or hardrive, and then as a last resort, I would turn in the illegal KJ to the Sound Choice Legal team, and still be able to sleep easily about it. I'll let my hosting skills compete for business against another legit KJ, but I'll also play nasty when it comes to some pirate trying to take the money out of my wallet...:g
When I started buying music, cdg's weren't prevelant up here yet, still laserdiscs - those ran 120-150 PER disc for 28 songs.
DK, SC, MM were the first ones in this are and those discs ran approx $45-50 per disc for 15-18 songs - depending on brand. Even the 'cheaper' brands of today ran around $30 each disc. This was back in 93-95.

[Musicman51]

No you get copies of the discs they still produce, and need to delete anything that is discontinued - and look for a used copy like any other 'legal' kj would.

used disc? ummmm...yeah:r

[Musicman51]

You see folks....this is the exact thing i was talking about. If this happened to me and my club. I would run to my lawyers office. And this can happen to you. I just posted about a persons reputation. The lawyers of sound choice made a statement? Where are the sleps during this? This is the perception i was talking about. You will see much much more of this. This is a case of where the "investigators" never...never even stepped foot into this establishment. Whose the crooks here? I am actually starting to be ashamed of even associating myself with the karaoke industry because of the bad shoddy practices of a select few. The more i read about this mess the more it's starting to....:m

http://m.wbir.com/detail.jsp?key=113776&rc=ne&full=1

[RandyMcCharles]

No you get copies of the discs they still produce

So you do get the discs. For .75 a song. I would have loved to have paid .75 per song for the discs I bought. So what SC is telling me is that if I had stolen their music first then they would then sell it to me at a huge discount, but if I wanted to come by it honestly I have to pay retail like everyone else.
This reminds me of when I (a Canadian) gratuated from a US university and applied for a work visa and was told I could not get one unless I worked illegally in the US for 2 years first (and not paid taxes).
This sounds like another example of where the honest guy gets the shaft while the pirate gets the soft touch.

[Lonman]

used disc? ummmm...yeah:r
The discs that are offered in the settlement are new.
Anything else that is discontinued, they need to delete & if they want that disc must search high & low like any other kj - chances are finding a 'used' disc that has been discontinued. I buy used discs all the time off of customers that no longer want them for their own library. Nothing wrong with that.

[Lonman]

So you do get the discs. For .75 a song. I would have loved to have paid .75 per song for the discs I bought. So what SC is telling me is that if I had stolen their music first then they would then sell it to me at a huge discount, but if I wanted to come by it honestly I have to pay retail like everyone else.
But again the kicker is, they must delete & not use anything there is no original disc for. Plus the fact that many discs are not produced anymore, - so they must drop their copy of 8125 & 8148 & anything with Pearl Jam & anything with Soundgarden, etc.... so a pirates 100K library is going to drop to a more level playing field with many other kj's with approx 10K (or less) songs and probably less desireable as many kj's that have been at it a while still have these discs and the more desireable songs people want. So this host had better have been good to begin with rather than relying on his huge illegal library, because they no longer have that to fall back on as a lure.

[RandyMcCharles]

Discontinued discs is a problem outside of piracy. You have a good point that a pirate who missed the opportunity to buy a disc before it was discontinued cannot go legit and keep the bootlegged tracks. But even legit buyers cannot get a disc once it is no longer available. I mentioned in another thread that all Canadian manufacturers are now out of business (not due to piracy but due to rising license fees). I would love to buy the Karaokemakers Trooper CDG but cannot even find a used disc for love or money. Very little Canadian music that did not top US charts was ever produced as karaoke and currently exactly zero is.

[Lonman]

Not sure if the PM worked or not, but sent you a link where you can get that Trooper disc.

[RIKKI TIKKI]

When I started buying music, cdg's weren't prevelant up here yet, still laserdiscs - those ran 120-150 PER disc for 28 songs.
DK, SC, MM were the first ones in this are and those discs ran approx $45-50 per disc for 15-18 songs - depending on brand. Even the 'cheaper' brands of today ran around $30 each disc. This was back in 93-95.

I came into the industry a couple of years after the laserdiscs, but the first karaoke shows I saw ( too shy to try in those days ) used them, and I can remember all the background video, and remembered commenting to my girlfriend that the video made it distracting from the lyrics for the singer, but entertained the rest of the audience (especially those that weren't singing).

I ran a bowling center in a small town on the Arizona/Mexico border, that needed some entertainment in a small underused lounge, and remembered Karaoke that I had seen a couple of years earlier, and checked into several formats for Karaoke entertainment for this small venue... I do remember the cost of a Karaoke jukebox that included 25 laserdiscs, directly from Japan, that could be leased or bought. If you bought the turn key version the retail price was a cool $20,000 smackers... my owner didn't go for it...lol. So I hired a KJ from a nearby town, and paid him $200 / night... more than I should have paid( but still made a meager profit in the beginning ), but he was good ( and the profit margin increased quite a bit ), and tought me alot about the business, indirectly, as I am a quick study, and loved to sing... he left for a town farther away, after a couple of months, and I decided that maybe I could KJ, along with the other 3 or 4 hats I wore at this bowling alley (sic), and convinced the owner to lend me $2000 and I would purchase the Karaoke equipment, and do the shows for free for two years, in order to pay off the loan... I'm still Hosting after 15 years, and still have the original gear in storage, including the JVC cdg player that I originally bought, and also a Hitachi player that I bought as a backup, since JVC discontinued their cdg player, and I needed a backup, for my home studio, and show, in case the JVC died...

I have some original receipts for the DK, and Sound choice discs I purchased ( on sale ) for $32.95 in 1996. My original cdg start up set in 1995 was included in the purchase of a turnkey setup, that included a new player(JVC), new mixing amp, and 4 used Pioneer speakers and stands, and 3 corded mics, and cables for every piece of gear. Plus 25 various cdg's of my choosing, and I think they retailed at $39.95 for the ones that I selected... All for the cool price of $1,850.00 delivered from Chicago...

I didn't quite know what I was getting into, once all the new manufacturers started producing the same songs, so I experimented with different manus, and after a lot of trial and error, and duplication, I eventually stuck with Sound Choice as my manu of preference, and didn't deviate, until Pop Hits Monthly started producing new songs faster than Sound Choice, and I bought quite a lot of new songs that my clients were requesting, even though I would have rather waited for the Sound Choice cdg, the timeliness of their releasing new music, was putting me in a bind with my regulars, that started wondering why they could sing those new songs, on their visits to Karaoke shows in the bigger towns, but I was always waiting to purchase the Sound Choice version... it was because I could count on the quality, and not duplicate too many songs in the process.

Ah! The good ol' days...:r

[Lonman]

[edited] Deleted a link.

[RandyMcCharles]

Not sure if the PM worked or not, but sent you a link where you can get that Trooper disc.

Thanks Lonman. I got the link and am following up. I called every place I could find that listed it a couple of years ago and they were out, but i don't think I saw this place.

[RandyMcCharles]

Trooper disc


Truly amazing. Of the Karaokemaker line that is the 1 CDG they have in stock. I have order it and it is on its way. The CGD has been unavailable for several years, being the 1st title karaokemaker dropped due to rising license fees. I bought all their other discs before they closed shop so this make the collection not only complete, but is one of the best disc karaokemaker put out. Lonman, I owe you a drink.

[RandyMcCharles]

turnkey setup


It seems to me that this would be a good approach to reducing piracy. If the manufacturer leased an updatable closed system a KJ could have a broad selection without a huge startup cost. PVRs currently do that to reduce video piracy. My PVR has a Terabyte drive so I can record lots of licensed broadcasts, but the system is closed so I can't move the video files to other drives. I think CAVS may be moving in this direction but haven't really been paying much attention as I am firmly entrenched in CDG imported to Hoster.

[Musicman51]

From what i understand, from a very good source. Down around the greater chicago area. Clubs are no longer hiring KJ's with "computer hard driven presentation systems." It started actually with the DJ's, now includes kj's as well. They tell them to go home get their disc and come back and see'um. Guess who this hurts besides us kj's? Now i can't verify this, but it does come from what i consider a very very reliable person. Trickle down effect? we'll see.....
P.S. I want to thank everyone who reads this forum, and the dj forum,non members alike. And those that have found my email address somehow and sent me emails. But what do you expect me to do about this mess? Further i have no interest at the present time in being a spokes person for anyone.

[Lonman]

Truly amazing. Of the Karaokemaker line that is the 1 CDG they have in stock. I have order it and it is on its way. The CGD has been unavailable for several years, being the 1st title karaokemaker dropped due to rising license fees. I bought all their other discs before they closed shop so this make the collection not only complete, but is one of the best disc karaokemaker put out. Lonman, I owe you a drink.
See even discontinued & hard to find discs CAN be found.
If you ever come across a Sound Choice 8148 (used is fine), let me know - I want a back up for mine as it has a small crack in the center.

[Lonman]

From what i understand, from a very good source. Down around the greater chicago area. Clubs are no longer hiring KJ's with "computer hard driven presentation systems."

Sad thing is computers in general are not illegal, a kj using discs but running a program like Hoster for the show - using it as a disc player only, not a hard drive player, still gives the kj all the computer bells & whistles as far as scrolling marquee, rotation, music, instabuttons, etc,.....but keeps it to the clubs expectations if they require the kj to use discs only.

[RandyMcCharles]

no longer hiring KJ's with "computer hard driven presentation systems."


I think this is one of SC's goals. To discourage computer systems and force the use of their physical CDGs. I saw someone post that they bring all their CDGs to their show even though they use HD. While this may not soothe all venues growing fearful of KIAA, it may soothe many.

[RandyMcCharles]

Sound Choice 8148


I have to go to meetings now, but with check with my sources when I get back,

[ddouglass]

I think you guys have beat this horse to death. So how about we leave this for facts about the cases pending and use the other thread about KIAA to discuss the peripheral items around the legal issues. As far as looking for out of production or hard to find disks this needs to be in a separate thread as it doesn't even apply here.

One noted problem here as I see it is the confusion over the KIAA whose actions were only involved in the Arizona cases and the Sound Choice lawsuits in TN, VA, and NC. The later is strictly a Sound Choice action with no KIAA involvement that I can find. ANd no I am not a member of KIAA either.:g:t

Thanks to all for their thoughts and views on the subject.

[RandyMcCharles]

Sound Choice 8148

I checked my usual retailers, even the one where I found U2 and INXS in stock after Sound Choice discontinued them, but to no avail. I have some contacts in the Canadian retail market. I'll ask if they have one hidden behind the counter somewhere.

[Musicman51]

yeah..suposin we could close up this thread if you wish dale..i don't like to see things git off track either. But i sure would like to keep at least one KIA{A} {sound choice} thread going if possible. I use it for educational purposes, and to hear other peoples idea's and feelings on these matters. Keeps up to date on whats going on with this situation in other parts of the nation. And since my snailmail and newspapers are delivered daily by a guy riding a horse, i keep up to date online..wayyyyyyyyyy up here. I am so far out in the sticks, i have seen bobcat, wolves, coyote's and even badgers in my backyard. hehehe...anyway you know whats best...You are a super moderator, and wonderful person. Thanks for keeping this thing all together. And thank you mtu for having this open free help and discussion center.
Thank You, on behalf of "The George Show" "Excellence in Vocal, Variety, and Instrumental Entertainment."

[ddouglass]

I am not going to close it yet. Just want to keep it on track so we can follow what is going on with the lawsuits.

[Lonman]

Sorry about asking about any particular disc here, however looking for discontinued/OOP discs in general does apply in a sense as those that have to delete their files from the computer may have to start looking if they want to keep the same songs once the lawsuits are settled.

[ddouglass]

Part of the damages that Sound Chioce is asking for (if they go to court and find someone guilty) is that their equipment be seized. That means the individual will be out of business and won't need to buy disks unless they plan on starting over after paying all the damages, fines, legal fees, etc. Not really very likely.

[muzicman144]

Part of the damages that Sound Chioce is asking for (if they go to court and find someone guilty) is that their equipment be seized. That means the individual will be out of business and won't need to buy disks unless they plan on starting over after paying all the damages, fines, legal fees, etc. Not really very likely.

If one went to court as i understand it, they have been accused, but no inspection of equipment has been performed or seized, What stops the accused "pirate" of cleaning up his system, or disposing of the evidence, I.E., complete hard drive, failure, fire, theft, etc., leaving no evidence for the court to see. Seem proof of illegal use would be hard to prove. As i understand it, only one's word of SC's field agent is used, no other evidence have i seen noted. One could "borrow" a few disc from a good friend, load a hard drive and presto, he is ready for court, being sure to have a couple of SC disc included.
I have paid for every disc i own, but have no receipts, didn't know years ago that i would need that little piece of paper to prove anything, and i bet you all didn't either!!!!
muzicman144:g:g:g:g

[ddouglass]

He he is one of those who has bought a hard drive with massive amounts of songs, that might cost him more than the costs for court.:e I doubt they are the ones who will try it in court.

[Lonman]

I have paid for every disc i own, but have no receipts, didn't know years ago that i would need that little piece of paper to prove anything, and i bet you all didn't either!!!!
muzicman144:g:g:g:g
Actually I have receipts for every new disc I ever purchased, although all the used discs I buy off of customers - no. However they are looking for original discs, not the receipts - to my understanding.

[Musicman51]

Hang on a sec while i compose myself....

ok i think i can type now.... let me make sure i have this right. A receipt for every single CD+G disc you have ever purchased in your lifetime? And i thought my grandma was just a little strange because she insist on saving the instruction manual to her old singer pump sewing machine. When i visit quinns music for my monthly chartbuster, i don't ever recall asking for a receipt. My local music store and i have that type of business relationship. Hey walt, i can see right now, if sound choice came aknockin' on my door, i'd be knee deep in a bucket of sunshine....:r

[billyo]

Hang on a sec while i compose myself....

ok i think i can type now.... let me make sure i have this right. A receipt for every single CD+G disc you have ever purchased in your lifetime? And i thought my grandma was just a little strange because she insist on saving the instruction manual to her old singer pump sewing machine. When i visit quinns music for my monthly chartbuster, i don't ever recall asking for a receipt. My local music store and i have that type of business relationship. Hey walt, i can see right now, if sound choice came aknockin' on my door, i'd be knee deep in a bucket of sunshine....:r

i'm in the same boat as you are:g, i don't even know what happened to the receipt for the new Numark Fusion Dj Controller that i bought 2 weeks ago, and the new 500gb Seagate Momentus ext. hhd. that i bought monday, if SC come knockin on my door,i'll be on the same bucket of..

[Lonman]

Hang on a sec while i compose myself....

ok i think i can type now.... let me make sure i have this right. A receipt for every single CD+G disc you have ever purchased in your lifetime?
They are collected & saved in a folder for tax purposes at the end of each year, so every reciept relating to karaoke/dj/music/production costs/etc. are in each year of my tax folders from the day I started.

[Musicman51]

I use my general system as a whole for my tax write off..never needed a reciept since i started. H&R block does my taxes....:w

[ddouglass]

Gentlemen lets keep this on subject which is the cases in Virginia. If you do not have something to add to that subject do not post it in this thread.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated in any of the Forums by MTU or myself.

[Ragnar35]

It would appear that Sound Choice is fishing with a large net. How, exactly, do they verify that a KJ who performs at a bar with a computer DOESN'T have a legal CDG for each computer file they play in a bar?

I may have missed something, but it does appear that they served a large number of bars and KJs with a lawsuit, forcing them to defend themselves, without any evidence to prove that the KJs were operating illegally.

[ddouglass]

You hit it right on the head. No evidence.

[muzicman144]

You hit it right on the head. No evidence.

I'm waiting for this thing to backfire on Sound Choice with an innocent kj suing SC for slander and other charges, but in reality, as i have stated numerous times, I believe that the percentage of at least one illegal file in a KJ's files is pretty high. Years ago before all of this illegal and legal things were happening, little thought was given to the illegality of exchanging a few copied disk with friends or even fellow kj's as This was before legality of the hard drive or computer issue we deal with now.At that time, i'm sure no one considered it illegal.
muzicman144:c:c:c

[marklwood]

It would appear that Sound Choice is fishing with a large net. How, exactly, do they verify that a KJ who performs at a bar with a computer DOESN'T have a legal CDG for each computer file they play in a bar?

I may have missed something, but it does appear that they served a large number of bars and KJs with a lawsuit, forcing them to defend themselves, without any evidence to prove that the KJs were operating illegally.

Civil suits aren't innocent until proven guilty. They are merely a preponderance of evidence. Just ask OJ:) It doesn't even do you any good to plead the 5th. Then the judge only hears one side and still has to decide the case. Big business does this to the little guys all the time. Just sue them until they run out of money. You can't get a Public Defender like you can in a criminal case. The one with the deepest pockets usually wins.

[ddouglass]

But Mark what "evidence" do they have? Someone in there employee went to the person's show, saw asinger singing a Sound Choice song, photographed the entry in the Songbook and with that they sue?? They have tried this before and had it thrown out of court for lack of evidence.
They are desperate and trying to get people to give them money by blackmail period.

[Musicman51]

The little guys relief is rather simple. You take the verdict, file bankrupt, and be done with it..yes you can do this under a civil suit. Plead you are insolvent, and indigent. And you're rid of it. However, that won't help you next time, unless they bust you 8 years later..lol

But this point is actually moot anyway. As sound choice and their "Paid By Case Win" lawyers will not be taking any cases to court. It's to their advantage, and only profitable to them, if you do something stupid like sign something, and settle out of court.

Kurt has said on another forum, i have a copy of the post. That their purpose is not to fight piracy, but to simply recoup their loses because of piracy. Big difference. It's a money thing, not a moral thing to them. He said in so many words he's too busy to fight piracy, it's not his job.

You will be able to count on one hand the cases that actually go to court. Visit the court website, and read the rather sloppy court filings that sound choice {attorney} filed, the author of this thread has posted them. It reads like one long SC infomercial. If this whole situation wasn't so sad..it would be hilarious.:r

[Musicman51]

Here's something i found on another forum on this subject. I wish i could take credit for it but i can't. But i found it very truthful and a very good point. This author was refering to several disc that sound choice manufactured, without first securing the legal rights to do so. One in particular was the eagles disc, that not being the only one however.



IMHO, I think SC has perpetuated the world's biggest snow job on most KJ's.
Everyone seems to want to waive the flag as though SC is the most honest,
upstanding, sterling company that ever existed and that they are somehow only an
innocent "victim" in the piracy problem. Wake up and smell the coffee, they are
not. They are not doing anything now that champions the legal KJ and is out to
slay the pirates... exactly the opposite; they will leave the legal KJ's alone
and simply sell discs to the pirates. They're not out to put pirates out of
business, they are out to sell them $6,500 worth of discs.... period.

[marklwood]

But Mark what "evidence" do they have? Someone in there employee went to the person's show, saw asinger singing a Sound Choice song, photographed the entry in the Songbook and with that they sue?? They have tried this before and had it thrown out of court for lack of evidence.
They are desperate and trying to get people to give them money by blackmail period.

You are absolutely right, but lack of evidence doesn't stop people from filing lawsuits. I have been sued several times in my 20+ years in the bar business. All but one of them were absolutely ludicrous. Even that one was a pretty big stretch. I have defended myself on all these occasions, but I wouldn't recommend that for most people. I have been lucky enough to get all of them in small claims where it is less formal.

In the best case scenario, you have to spend at least a couple hundred on a lawyer to get this thrown out. Who has to pay for this? You do. Even in my cases I had to spend a lot of my valuable time getting all my ducks in a row. The worst thing you can do is come to court unprepared. In business, you weigh the risk/reward for all your decisions. When you decide to file suit against someone there is very little, if any, risk involved in suing someone. The rewards, on the other hand, can be great.

There are people out there that make their living suing people. I used to work for a property management company that did low income housing. We were sued by a "consulting" firm under the Americans with Disabilities Act. When it was all said and done, we made no changes to the accessible unit for the wheelchair bound tenant because she was happy to start with and didn't want anything changed. The "consulting" firm made $25k to continue their "advocacy" for the disabled.

[marklwood]

Here's something i found on another forum on this subject.

Do you remember when SC moved their custom disk operation to Australia? They did so to circumvent the copyright holders in the US. There are others, but one example is the Beatles catalog. Most have not been released for Karaoke in the US. In Australia, they merely pay a standard rate and can do any song they so chose. Then just mail it to the US. No US laws have been broken until it is used in a show. Let the KJ break the law by performing it in public.

[Musicman51]

In the best case scenario, you have to spend at least a couple hundred on a lawyer to get this thrown out. Who has to pay for this? You do. ]

I'm sure some guys would much much rather spend $200 or so, then $6,500. But that aside, SC is counting on you to settle, that is the only only way they get anything. Here in michigan a couple of years ago, they tested the waters here, and of course lost. It was a slightly different scenerio, but they still lost. And i predict they will in this instance as well. Their lawyers will make a few bucks, and so will SC off the ones they strong arm. But thats about the long and short of it.

My advice, learn to live with the pirates. Once a pirate gets a smell of that easy money, all the law suites in the world won't git shun of them. They will just move around, and pop up someplace else. Just like the illegal DJ's have been doing since a front loading table top CD player with effects was invented. They're sadly...still here.

I actually don't see it as a direct problem to me, a pirate could never get a foot into the club i'm in. But with that being said, i have talked to many many kj's across the country. Believe it or not, most actually aren't worried about pirates..really. There are a few so so kj's that claim to have been put out by a throat cutting pirate. But after a short conversation with a few, i wonder if that is really the case, or simply a poor performer..hard to say.

I have actually accepted the fact that it's going to be part of the business...and i gotta just learn to deal with it. Do i like it? of course not. But like it or not, they're right here to stay buddy boy. Sound Choice seems to be having a melt down because of so called "lost profits". But, you don't hear a peep out of any other manu, or provider. I think it's all one big money making fiasco...And i will go out on a limb and make another prediction. Sound Choice's download joke {site} will be a losing proposistion as well...Just too many guy's P.O'd.

I know right now, sound choice hasn't done one thing to me, or anyone i am associated with in this business..yet we all still woundn't buy a disc from them if it were pressed in gold. Thats what SC has created across the country.....:)

[marklwood]

This is a reprint from a post I had read on piracy and the music industry


It is sad but predictable to see John Prior (Letters, August 10) trotting out the old fallacy about music that we buy a product encumbered with a licence.
Let us walk through my most recent purchase. I strolled into the store, located the CD I was after, paid for it in cash and left. At no stage was I asked to sign a licensing agreement - not even a post-sale agreement like those for software. It was a simple transaction of cash for a physical product.
”No,” cries the music industry, ”you are bound by the licensing agreement that you did not sign and that we cannot produce for inspection.”
Fine - let’s suppose I now have a licence for personal use applying to all the CDs I own. I should be able to take advantage of that. A CD I bought 10 years ago now has a scratch down the middle so that five of the 10 songs refuse to play. Luckily for me, this problem is solely with the physical medium. After all, my licence for personal use should allow me to reacquire ”my” content, especially since it is digital data and can be reproduced an unlimited number of times at virtually no cost.
”No,” cries the music industry, ”you bought a product, not a licence. You are not entitled to a free replacement, you need to buy it all over again. And when you do, you will be covered by another identical licence. Until something happens to this new physical medium.”
David Jack Leichhardt

[Musicman51]

So So true marklwood. Scratch one, your loss. Now, just as a side note. Nothing at all to do with the licence situation you are speaking of. But chartbuster, will replace any CDG disc they produce if you scratch it or it gets broken for 5 bucks. Back when i was still using disc full time. I had a drunk come up to the karaoke table, he picked up a cdg and he dropped its. Gouged it pretty good, it rolled across the dance floor. Took him 3 tries to keep his balance and pick it up. It was part of a box set. Thank goodness it was a chartbuster disc. Then of course chartbuster said they didn't have just the single disc #4 of that box set. I jumped their case, and they gave me the entire box set for 5.00 shipping not just the single disc. But like i said, nothing at all to do with what you are speaking of, as far as fair use replacement. You make a very valid point.

[Lonman]

So So true marklwood. Scratch one, your loss. Now, just as a side note. Nothing at all to do with the licence situation you are speaking of. But chartbuster, will replace any CDG disc they produce if you scratch it or it gets broken for 5 bucks. Back when i was still using disc full time. I had a drunk come up to the karaoke table, he picked up a cdg and he dropped its. Gouged it pretty good, it rolled across the dance floor. Took him 3 tries to keep his balance and pick it up. It was part of a box set. Thank goodness it was a chartbuster disc. Then of course chartbuster said they didn't have just the single disc #4 of that box set. I jumped their case, and they gave me the entire box set for 5.00 shipping not just the single disc. But like i said, nothing at all to do with what you are speaking of, as far as fair use replacement. You make a very valid point.
They will only replace discs that are currently manufactured. Sound Choice has that same policy as well. These are the only 2 companies I know of that offer this replacement policy.
But as far as a scratch goes, as long as it is not on the label side, it is fixable. A scratch on the label side or a flat out crack is a dead disc.

[Musicman51]

They will only replace discs that are currently manufactured.

yeah...i would'nt think they {Manufacture} could replace a disc they don't have, or no longer produce..lol Although subing another one would be a good show of faith. But as far as sound choice goes, never had them replace a thing for me, and i have inquired a couple of times, a few years ago. They said no can do. I dunno.
But up 'round these parts we are all just about to pull all sound choice products from our notebooks anyway. Monday morning 9 of us independents are going to have yet another meeting over coffee, and are going to hash it out. They all want to stick together and dump Sound Choice, and have a "Disc Fry" and put it on you tube and invite the television stations and newspapers. ah we'll see...:f.

[Lonman]

I've only needed to replace 3 SC discs, but they were replaced in a timely manner, had to send the damaged disc along with the shipping cost (per discs) & recieved a new one in less than a week. One of the 3 were actually a Mediacloq disc I needed that was re-released without it. Never had to use the CB policy yet.

[Musicman51]

I said on this forum a couple of times, that there is a right way and a wrong way about doing something. That not only holds true for the sleps, but for us as kj's in this industry. Someone, whom i've never met before, and i have no idea who he or she is. Sent me this blog page concerning Sound Choice. Now, i've kided around calling them the slep castpo and gang and that type of thing. But i would never post something like this. And i think just like the sleps, this kind of thing does more harm then good. You can decide for yourself. If dale decides to take this link down, that would be fine by me. However,i think it is just one persons view. And not necessarily mine. Free speech i guess. But i would bet anything the person who made this page was illegal and got busted.

http://www.soundchoicesucks.com/

[Rockrz]

Sound Choice might not be paying royalties to the artist and producers who made the original songs,and or may not have enough funds to pay them so they going after KJ's to get that MONEY to pay the original artist and KIAA is going along with them to get some, the latter ( bold letters ) is just my opinion

Ever notice how some songs have a few lyrics that are wrong, or where the music has sections that are a little different from the original version?

This is what karaoke companies do when an artist (or their publisher) refuses to give authorization for their songs to be made into karaoke.

Supposedly, this is perfectly legal when a certain percentage of the song/ music is different from the original.

I heard this years ago, and there's gotta be some truth to it, otherwise why would karaoke companies make some songs with what most people would call errors due to being considerably different from the original.

I heard this from somebody who claimed to be good friends with a studio musician who has worked for Sound Choice on numerous projects where they planned to make sections of certain songs to be different than the originals.

Anybody ever hear about this?

[billyo]

Ever notice how some songs have a few lyrics that are wrong, or where the music has sections that are a little different from the original version?

[quote]This is what karaoke companies do when an artist (or their publisher) refuses to give authorization for their songs to be made into karaoke.

in my opinion, i don't think that's true, otherwise most of these cdg companies would be doing this, i think they are not paying or may not have enough funds to pay the original producers/artist.and that is just my opinion, and i dont mean to imply anything.

Supposedly, this is perfectly legal when a certain percentage of the song/ music is different from the original.

no matter how little percentage of the songs/ music they changed, it's still not legal for them to change it.if you look at most of the songs on every disc they produced ,they always list the name of the original artist,
how would we know who did the songs on some of the older songs, without them putting the name of the artist on the label

[Rockrz]

If you've ever followed an artist that sues another artist for copyright infringement, claiming they are copying their song, it usually comes down to how large of a percentage is the alledged stolen song is like the original that determines who wins the case.

They actually have some sort of formula that figures this out and I think they do this with some software program.

Sure, on karaoke discs they like who the artist was and maybe who the publisher is that holds the rights to the song...but that doesn't mean the karaoke producer paid to re-produce the song on karaoke.

I've heard for years (nobody can prove this except for the karaoke producers, and they won't) that many of the karaoke producers, including Sound Choice, don't always pay license fees because there are ways around having to pay this expense and still not get the britches sued off of them.

It's be just like Sound Choice to screw the artist / publisher, and then turn around and claim some KJs are screwing them. Maybe they are reaping what they've sown

[mindonstrike]

Ever notice how some songs have a few lyrics that are wrong, or where the music has sections that are a little different from the original version?

This is what karaoke companies do when an artist (or their publisher) refuses to give authorization for their songs to be made into karaoke.

Supposedly, this is perfectly legal when a certain percentage of the song/ music is different from the original.

I heard this years ago, and there's gotta be some truth to it, otherwise why would karaoke companies make some songs with what most people would call errors due to being considerably different from the original.

I heard this from somebody who claimed to be good friends with a studio musician who has worked for Sound Choice on numerous projects where they planned to make sections of certain songs to be different than the originals.

Anybody ever hear about this?I have heard this but I do not believe it to be true.

Case in point:Parodies. If you look at the credits for parodies they will include the original song writers names as well as the parody writer. I believe also that there has to be substantial changes to a song before someone can add their name to the credits and share the royalties. If a song has the "look and feel" of another song, the original writers (or owners if the rights have been sold) will get credit

The movie industry is getting sued all the time over these things. Someone thinks that a new movie is too similiar to a book or screenplay they wrote and will sue, leaving it up to the courts to decide if a work is new or a derivative of someone elses.

[Rockrz]

I believe also that there has to be substantial changes to a song before someone can add their name to the credits and share the royalties

The subject I was talking about is karaoke companies changing a song just enough so they can somehow get away with not paying royalties to the original artist / publisher on the music and on the lyrics.

Even when doing this, they still list the original artist of the song on the karaoke disc. If they didn't, then nobody would know who sang they song.

I think we've all seen especially lyrics that are wrong and I know I've heard a few where the music was different in several places

[Rockrz]

The VFW Halls around here have no such policy that is actually being enforced.

'Round here, if you can crawl up to the bar and you got money (or a good credit / debit card) then they'll serve ya! :g

[ddouglass]

I am going to bet that if you walk into a VFW Hall drunk and staggering that they would NOT serve you. I know because I help enforce this in my VFW. VFW does not go against state law or they won't be in the alcohol business long and no state that I know of doesn't enforce this.
If they don't enforce it then they are opening themselves to massive lawsuits when that drunk leaves and kills someone or themselves.

[Rockrz]

I was joking around about the "crawling up to the bar" part :)

I was just saying that where we are at, they serve anyone
who walks in regardless of if they are members or not, or if
they are with a member or not.

I've been in quite a few of these places in Texas and only
once did I have someone ask to see my ID and that was
back when I was young and they were just making sure
I was old enough to drink

[ddouglass]

Many of the VFW's, especially those in smaller towns or out in the county, do allow other than members to come in. Ours does too. In our case we opened it up after 1 of the 2 bars in the area closed up. If we had to depend on our small membership then we would barely be able to pay the utility bills and the loan every month. By allowing others to come in we have enough in our coffers to be able to help provide for the our area in times of disaster, like Hurricane Ike, as well as being able to provide community service.

[Rockrz]

Yessir, I've met alot of good folks in VFW, and American Legion halls over the years and I think it's a great idea to allow these establishments to be tax free so they can do things to benefit veterens.

[mindonstrike]

The subject I was talking about is karaoke companies changing a song just enough so they can somehow get away with not paying royalties to the original artist / publisher on the music and on the lyrics.Exactly. Usually at the end of every karaoke song (sometimes at the beginning and also on the paper insert with the cd) there is a page listing the writers, the publisher and the royalty collection agency that represents them (BMI, ASCAP etc) and usually the words "Used by permission". If the original artist is mentioned it is only for your information, not for any legal reasons as it doesn't mean squat for royalty collection purposes unless they also happened to be the writers. When I say "credits" I don't mean credit for making the song famous. I mean credit like shown on TV and Movies for who was involved in the production.

Even when doing this, they still list the original artist of the song on the karaoke disc. If they didn't, then nobody would know who sang they song.Again the original artist is irrelevent unless you hear their voice or hear them playing the instruments. The only ones who matter are who wrote the lyrics and who wrote the music. Though the original artists are often listed on the cd they are not always listed on the cd. It's a customer service thing. Just to help make the sale to you.

I think we've all seen especially lyrics that are wrong and I know I've heard a few where the music was different in several placesAgain it doesn't matter how many typos there are or how badly the music was performed, what matters is, is it the same song

[Musicman51]

Sure the American Legion club i've been at for the past 6 years also will allow the public in under certain circumstances. The fish fry, bingo, the area childrens christmas party, jam sessions we put on things like that. And we serve them booze as well except for the children's party. But on a friday night when i'm there doing karaoke twice a month, no public is allowed unless signed in.

[gd123]

First and foremost, if you are named in a SC Lawsuit, immediately counter-sue for $1 million dollars U.S.

SC sues over 2 issues.
1. Trademark Infringement
2. Unfair Competition

With respect to Trademark Infringement, they specifically refer to the "Confusion" clause of the statute.

Confusion is used when a blatant infringement has not occurred. It is the "Catch-all" clause of the statute.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/inp27.htmThe reason for this can be found in the language of the Lanham Act: one must only show the mark is "likely to cause confusion" for a finding of infringement.So, how does one cause "Confusion?"
SC believes this occurs with downloaded/pirated Karaoke that is used in a commercial environment where a KJ is being compensated. SC is saying that, by using Pirated Karaoke, the SC Trademark is confusing the Establishment's Owners, Singers, and non-Singers because the Establishment's Owners, Singers, and non-Singers have a fundamental right to believe that the Karaoke Trademarks being displayed are from Original Discs ripped to a Hard Drive at a 1:1 ratio and owned by the KJ contractor for an individual Karaoke Show or multiple sets of Original Discs if the KJ is running multiple rigs.

How does one DEFEND against "Confusion" to thwart SC if one is named in a lawsuit?
Having a simple TERMS and DISCLAIMER is your BEST DEFENSE. The Disclaimer would read similar to this:

TERMS and DISCLAIMER
To the Establishment, Singers, and any non-Singer present at any (Insert Your Company Name Here) Show or anyone viewing any unauthorized content recording of any (Insert Your Company Name Here) Show:
So there is no "Confusion" of any Trademark being displayed, either use of or viewing of any Karaoke Song from (Insert Your Company Name Here) Karaoke Song Library by anyone or entity at any (Insert Your Company Name Here) Show means that you have read and agree to the following:
(Insert Your Company Name Here) assures the Establishment, Singers, and non-Singers that all Karaoke Songs sung are Karaoke Tracks directly from the Original Karaoke Discs (1:1) owned by (Insert Your Company Name Here). (Insert Your Company Name Here) uses Karaoke Tracks from the Original Karaoke Discs (1:1) owned by (Insert Your Company Name Here) for all shows, either individually or overlapping, and is in no way associated, affiliated, connected, approved, authorized or sponsored by any Karaoke Disc Company, whatsoever, and does not constitute a legal contract between (Insert Your Company Name Here) and any person or entity. (Insert Your Company Name Here) has legally purchased all its Karaoke Songs and is not operating as a retail company where any of its legally purchased Karaoke Songs are for re-Sale, Lease, Rent, Trade or Give-away. (Insert Your Company Name Here) considers singers who sing at any (Insert Your Company Name Here) Show to be non-professional Singers who are not being compensated in any way to sing. (Insert Your Company Name Here) forbids any recording of any type during any of its Shows.With the above Disclaimer, you will have taken away SC ability to PROVE that anyone was "Confused" as to the origin of their Trademark...or anyone's Trademark for that matter.


http://www.lectlaw.com/files/inp27.htm
One has a "right to inform the public" that the information it distributes comes from another.102 As Justice Holmes clarified, "A trade mark[sic] only gives the right to prohibit the use of it so far as to protect the owner's good will against the sale of another's product as his. . . . When the mark is used in a way that does not deceive the public we see no such sanctity in the word as to prevent its being used to tell the truth. It is not taboo."104But, I take it a few steps further by prefacing the Disclaimer with a TERMS clause. This forces everyone to agree to the statements before any Trademarks are displayed.

Although the following actually deals with selling goods, it does make good reading in understanding what is considered "Blatant" Infringement and "Confusion" Infringement:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/inp28.htm

221 The Rosenfeld court follows the traditional disclaimer rule in finding no likelihood of confusion existed. 222 The court reviews the Second Circuit's holdings and found that it "repeatedly recognize[s] that an effective disclaimer can significantly reduce the potential for consumer confusion caused by an infringing product if it clearly designates the source of the product."

The above Disclaimer, also, defends against: 2. Unfair Competition as it specifically states:
(Insert Your Company Name Here) has legally purchased all its Karaoke Songs and is not operating as a retail company where any of its legally purchased Karaoke Songs are for re-Sale, Lease, Rent, Trade or Give-away. I suppose, if you were found to be selling or giving away pirated Karaoke, unfair competition would exist as you would be selling way below what the Original would sell for. But, in reality, the legit KJ does NOT sell or distribute and SC doesn't run Karaoke Shows. Therefore there is NO competition whatsoever...leave alone UNFAIR...more evidence for a JURY of SC's BS...end of story on Unfair Competition.

There is an ancillary statement to possibly defend against Public Performance as I believe this has been totally distorted as NO ONE IS GETTING PAID TO SING.

Since SC sends scabs to your shows to "gather evidence," You should have a CONTENT DISCLAIMER in all your Song Lists that would read similar to this:CONTENT DISCLAIMER
This Song List is provided for information purposes only and does not constitute a legal contract between (Insert Your Company Name Here) and any person or entity. All information within is subject to change without prior notice. Although every reasonable effort is made to present current and accurate information, (Insert Your Company Name Here) makes no guarantees of any kind.
Further defense against SC is to force SC, during "Discovery," to produce all 4 licenses on ALL there Karaoke Songs. An argument could be made that, if SC didn't have permission to re-create, FOR SALE, the Intellectual Property (IP) in the first place, they wouldn't of had the right to put their Trademark on the IP in the second place. In other words...they are the thieves and profited until the record label or Artist forced them to pull the IP...Hence the "R" numbered discs.

SC's credibility would be tainted in eyes of a Jury. This will be plausible and sustainable evidence as SC never states what IP was infringed leaving it open for you, the defendant, to choose which IP it was that they have a picture of...their evidence. They do not want to name an IP as, if you produced the Original disc the IP was on, they would be dead in the water. This leaves their IP "evidence" open for debate and ambiguous, at best. More smoke for the JURY to show the deception of SC's lawsuit.

Simply choose the Eagles 8125 disc, assuming you have an Original, or, choose any Original that was later replaced, to clear up the ambiguity as they will NOT be able to show all 4 Licenses for the works on those discs. It's a catch 22 for SC. If SC says that's not the disc of works where the evidence came from, then, make them state categorically which work it was. If they do, then produce the Disc...end of story. But they won't...they don't want specific IPs because you would be able to produce them. The aforementioned is a way to force them. If you can't pin them down...more smoke for the JURY to show SC's deception.

I know I'm talking about IP, but the IP is what the Trademark is on. Kill the IP and the Trademark goes with it.

I suppose SC could argue that, even though the IP was not perfected, it is still their Trademark and you infringed upon it. You could, then, use Kurt Selp's own words, from various forums, that, as far as he and SC was concerned, as long as one had a 1:1 copy, which would include media-shifting to a Hard Drive, it was OK. Use his own words against him. So, it does matter which IP one was talking about because if one was to produce the Original...it was alright with Kurt Slep and SC and more reason to the JURY that the Lawsuit was nothing but a fishing expedition and FRIVOLOUS!

The NEW discs that SC is still producing further evidence that the SC Lawsuit is on shaky ground. The new discs come with a new WARNING LABEL that states:
COPYING THIS DISC OR ANY SOUND CHOICE SONG TO A HARD DRIVE FOR COMMERCIAL USE WITHOUT THE PROPER PERMISSION OR MAKING MULTIPLE COPIES FROM A SINGLE DISC OR FILE CONSTITUTES WILLFUL INFRINGEMENT WHICH MAY INCUR STATUTORY DAMAGES OF NOT LESS THAN $750 PER SONG.
So, what does this mean? Two things:
1. Obviously SC has a problem proving that the consumer was properly informed that they could NOT media shift the songs from the OLD DISCS to a Hard Drive. Why else would they change the warning. More evidence in for the JURY of SC's frivolous Lawsuit.

2. By the statement in the warning of NEW DISCS, "OR ANY SOUND CHOICE SONG," SC is trying to make all their songs comply retroactively. So, I would say, if you have any of these songs in you database...remove them immediately.

Further comments
When I purchased a SC Disc, I was never informed that I couldn't use these songs on a Hard Drive. Neither from SC itself, as I have purchased discs directly form them in the past, or from Vendors.

I did not walk through a door and SC magically became a business partner of mine because I purchased one of their discs. And, since they are not a business partner, they are not permitted access to any aspect of my business...leave alone my Song Library.

I heard rumors that SC wants to claim that their IP was never intended for Commercial use.
If they try that tactic, I have several inserts from Jewel Cases that state (This Is From SC8295):
BE PREPARED FOR ANY kj RIG!
Because you never know what situation you night be out in while hosting a karaoke show, Sound Choice now has several "speciality" CDGs that no KJ should be without!...Add our Surco Hispanico (Latin) Series discs and our Jewish songs CDG to the other Sound Choice products and you will have a complete CDG Karaoke library, ready to maximize your profits!Hope this gives hope to the Legit Karaoke Community!

[Musicman51]

Looks like you've done your home work gd123. This may be helpful to some. Sure doesn't hurt. The disclaimers sound like a dandy idea in any case. I may just print those up and stick them in, may not help, but sure won't hurt. Up here the guys are putting the KIA{A} logo in their song books {they all use disc}. Stating the kia{a} is not a legitimate organization, and don't be fooled by them, and not to hire any over priced kj who claims he has a better show because he's a member and charges more. And that the kia{A} has absolutly no governing power, or standing at all in the karaoke business. They're making me up a bunch, and i'll give a few to anyone who ask me for them.:)

[admin]

Beware KJs, Slep-Tone Entertaiment and Sound Choice Studios Are putting spotters in restaurants, bars, grills, etc. They where at one of my shows in September 2009. I was served with a lawsuite on Jan 13 2010 for displaying the Sound Choice marks without right or license at my karaoke show. You can click on the following link to view suite. :m

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-vaedce/case_no-1:2009cv01390/case_id-249441/

Yes i have my originals,,, I run a clean show i dont play any singers copied songs kind of sad
If, as you say, you have a CDG disc for every song on your hard drive, then you are clean to fight a good fight.

It would appear that Sound Choice is fishing with a large net. How, exactly, do they verify that a KJ who performs at a bar with a computer DOESN'T have a legal CDG for each computer file they play in a bar?

I may have missed something, but it does appear that they served a large number of bars and KJs with a lawsuit, forcing them to defend themselves, without any evidence to prove that the KJs were operating illegally.
It appear to me that you have summed up the correct facts; SC is making a gross assumption that ronw has illegal copies.

SC LOST the only case that went to court because the woman they sued saw it through to the end. Any competent Judge will do as before and throw SC and their frivolous suit out of court.

MY RECOMMENDATION: Contact the Attorney General (AG) in your state for help. Each state AG is responsible to PROTECT CITIZENS AND BUSINESSES from out-of-state scams, and that is exactly what Sound Choice is doing in this case. Let the AG fight SC for you.

[Rockrz]

Once SC shows your state AG that they have actually caught people using pirated, copyright protected property, the AG is going to provide room for SC to operate because it is in fact illegal to steal copyrighted material of any kind. There are actually alot of KJs out there using loaded hard drives they bought off of somebody where they don't have any of the original discs...that's illegal and it has to be dealt with in a civil court

Heck, the government has been known to act alot worse than what SC is doing by suing numerous people just to see what they can find (not knowing if there's anything illegal going on for sure or not)

I know if somebody was out there pirating my intellectual property, I'd want to do anything I could to not only stop it, but to also make a payday out of it as well as cover the costs of pursuing the issue in the courts...wouldn't you?

[Musicman51]

Once SC shows your state AG that they have actually caught people using pirated, copyright protected property, the AG is going to provide room for SC to operate because it is in fact illegal to steal copyrighted material of any kind.

Rockrz, with all due respect, that is simply not enough. Sound choice is in the business to sue first, ask for proof later. Guilty by association. Sound choice reasoning is simple rock. If you present a show using a computer based presentation software system, you are in their eyes a pirate...period! Like saying, everyone who strikes a match is an arsonist. Look on this thread, you will find a link to a disc based kj, and club owner sued, and they have all their legal disc layed right out??? So please don't assume that just because sound choice caught some kj pirates, doesn't mean every computer based kj is also one. And this is what you are doing by making the statement you did. As Admin stated, it's a violation of our rights. Sound choice would have to convince our AG that EVERY kj using a computer based system is a pirate..not just the ones they've caught. How about the ones they sued that were legal? Should sound choice simply say..oops...sorry? They never even apologized to this kj or the bar they mistakingly targeted.

[Rockrz]

How about the ones they sued that were legal? Should sound choice simply say..oops...sorry? They never even apologized to this kj or the bar they mistakingly targeted.

The law has a remedy for that which is to counter sue for false prosecution, slander, and I'm sure other infractions a good lawyer could come up with to slap on SC in court.

Have any of these folks that have been wrongly sued gone after SC at all?

[Musicman51]

Have any of these folks that have been wrongly sued gone after SC at all?


I can't speak for anyone else but myself. But here again, i think we are missing the point that admin was trying to make. That being, the way SC is conducting themselves, and the damage they are doing to the karaoke industry as a whole. You sue me, i'll sue you, then i'll sue you back, then i'll sue you again, then..... doesn't solve the problem we have right now. The point is, the innocent kj's are not the only victims here. Also the singers, the club owners, the manu's of software the list is endless are all victims in this mess.

Admin was trying to convey to us, the point of why should we have to put up with someone coming into our.. for lack of a better word {space}, and lable us a crook. Especially across state lines. You can never sue for enough money to get your reputation back..ever. No one likes a thief, on the other hand. No one likes to be called a thief when they're not. If you believe someone is wrongly using something that belongs to you, and you try to get a remedy through the court system, it is not "wrongful Prosecution", or "slander". However, that being said, you just can't go out and assume everyone stoled your trademark and product. It's not so much what sound choice is doing, as how they are doing it.

You see rock, SC actions are planned out. It's like you scratch my back, and i'll scratch yours. I'll let you off the hook, but what's in it for me? That's their slant on it...MONEY! Most club and bar owners and managers are not karaoke host. They couldn't tell a hot hard drive from a good one. So they're suppose to check everyones gear now? It's ridiculous. So low and behold along comes the KIAA. And for $50 they can educate you, and that also includes hiring only kj's that belong to the KIAA in your club. You say, you don't want to joint the KIAA, can't afford the 50 bucks? tough! See how this stuff works? Anyways.....good luck with your karaoke endeavors rock:)

[Rockrz]

The point should be if SC is mis-using the court system, then there's only one way to stop that...and that is to counter sue. Otherwise, everybody needs to quit the belly aching about how SC has decided to enforce their copyright on their products.

Looks like the thing to do is all the folks that have been wrongly sued should get together and go in to Federal Court and hold SC accountable.

If what everyone is saying about SC's actions being so wrong, then winning a court case against them shouldn't be that hard to do.

I know if it were me, and I did nothing wrong and they cost me alot of time and resources forcing me to go to court just to prove I'm operating legally...I'd want compensation, and rightfully so.

I think you can pretty much forget about the government helping anyone SC goes after wrongly because they don't care about people anyway.

[admin]

Another thought I had.

If Sound choice wants to sue you if you have ANY of their songs, then simply remove ALL SC songs from your Songbooks in V4.20 with the Tools > Edit Songs and click the "Hide in Songbook" checkbox.

If you want the maximum security against SC, then remove ALL their songs from your computer. If you have no SC, their rep won't find any on your computer or at your show.

I know some of you may consider this extreme, but it's nothing compared to a frivolous law suit! :r

[Rockrz]

Seems like if you showed them all your originals, then they'd be cool.

[admin]

Seems like if you showed them all your originals, then they'd be cool.
I don't think so. SC's goal is to get as many suckers to settle out of court by paying them $6500/system, whether they have all the discs or not.

There isn't anything cool about that... if you are in their sights, you are their target.

[Rockrz]

Then they only answer is to counter sue them for their false prosecution and mis-use of the court system.

This would have to be done by someone who was operating legally and had all physical copies of their digital collection and was willing to allow inspection by SC before being sued by SC and taken to court wrongfully.

Until somebody wins a suit against them, there won't ever be a legal precedent against their tactics...which enables them to keep doing it.

The government isn't going to help, only a civil suit against SC

[muzicman144]

This would have to be done by someone who was operating legally and had all physical copies of their digital collection and was willing to allow inspection by SC before being sued by SC and taken to court wrongfully.
SC

Why on Earth would someone let SC to inspection anything without just cause, and then only on a court order. If SC asked to inspect anything i had under a threat to sue, i would show them where the sun didn't shine in no uncertain terms. If I had an illegal file, i would present the court a pristene hard drive and let them go at it. Then i would proceed to use every court in the USA to get as much damage money from SC as the law would allow. I think that is the best offense to counter SC charges.
They state they have permission from all other karaoke producers to uncover illegal use of their products and would use that if no SC files were illegal. Just a huge net to catch fish. The law cannot seize you property on SC's whim.
muzicman144:m:m:m:m

[Rockrz]

Easiest way to win a counter-suit is to do anything you can to avoid being sued by SC in the first place, which shows you are cooperating with the copyright holder who is making the public claim that you may be in violation of their copyright.

This way, when you tell this to the jury in your counter suit, SC will be looking like complete idiots which will help you win your counter law suit, which is the only way to stop this is by hitting them in their pocket book, hard.

Besides, all "just cause" means is they have a witness who claims you aren't running a legal show and they can demand to see your originals. If you refuse, then they do have the right to sue you based on their "eye witness"...

The courts convict people on murder (an many other crimes) based on the testimony of eye witnesses, so this is all that's really needed to take someone to court to enforce a copyright, especially if you refuse to show them you have originals.

[muzicman144]

Easiest way to win a counter-suit is to do anything you can to avoid being sued by SC in the first place, which shows you are cooperating with the copyright holder who is making the public claim that you may be in violation of their copyright.

Besides, all "just cause" means is they have a witness who claims you aren't running a legal show and they can demand to see your originals. If you refuse, then they do have the right to sue you based on their "eye witness"...


Let's go through this again, The Slepps are private citizens, telling me if i don't allow them to search my personal belongings, they will sue me, and you say I should allow them to do so. Even the police cannot do that. They have to go to the court system and get a warrent. Having a "eye witness" doesn't allow the Slepps to demand to see anything you have, period. Do they have the right to sue based on "eye witness", absolutely, but, they do not need an "eye witness" to so. They still have serve one with a court order. Now who in the world is going to bring a illegal hard drive to court? Seems to me a person could ask what would it take to resolve this, delaying the process and proceed to hide any evidence. But to allow a private citizen to search anything one has, based on a threat to sue, just goes against what i see as one's civil rights in the good ole USA. Not perfect, But the best available at this time.
JMHO
muzicman144

[Rockrz]

The Slepps are private citizens, telling me if i don't allow them to search my personal belongings, they will sue me

Since they have registered their product, that you are using under their terms, they have the right thru civil actions to enforce their copyright.

If someone refuses to show all their originals, that is acting quilty and will draw a lawsuit because they have no other way to verify you have originals.

Now, if you do have the originals and you show them to SC then they should not sue because they have no reason to sue.

If they sue anyway after this, then yes they are abusing their ability to enforce their copyright which can only really be stopped by counter-suing them in court and making them pay a large settlement.


Even the police cannot do that. They have to go to the court system and get a warrent.


Not all the time...if they see a crime happening thru a window or by strange smells (as examples) they can come right in because a crime is in progress


But to allow a private citizen to search anything one has, based on a threat to sue, just goes against what i see as one's civil rights in the good ole USA.


You are free to NOT show him your originals and go talk to them in court...that makes you look like you have something to hide.

Having all your originals and doing business ethically is how a professional business is run, so why scared to show them you have originals so they'll stay off your back?

The law gives them the right to make sure there aren't any copyrighted music of theirs out being used in public. Sorry.

What would you do if you became a musician and people were out there not buying your album but enjoying it anyway because they kept getting free copies from each other?

Wouldn't you discuss with your lawyers ways to cash in on what's being stolen from you, depriving you of alot of money?

[muzicman144]

Since they have registered their product, that you are using under their terms, they have the right thru civil actions to enforce their copyright.
If someone refuses to show all their originals, that is acting quilty and will draw a lawsuit because they have no other way to verify you have originals.
Now, if you do have the originals and you show them to SC then they should not sue because they have no reason to sue.
If they sue anyway after this, then yes they are abusing their ability to enforce their copyright which can only really be stopped by counter-suing them in court and making them pay a large settlement.
Not all the time...if they see a crime happening thru a window or by strange smells (as examples) they can come right in because a crime is in progress
You are free to NOT show him your originals and go talk to them in court...that makes you look like you have something to hide.
Having all your originals and doing business ethically is how a professional business is run, so why scared to show them you have originals so they'll stay off your back?
The law gives them the right to make sure there aren't any copyrighted music of theirs out being used in public. Sorry.
What would you do if you became a musician and people were out there not buying your album but enjoying it anyway because they kept getting free copies from each other?
Wouldn't you discuss with your lawyers ways to cash in on what's being stolen from you, depriving you of alot of money?

What you are saying is the first way to lose our given rights. I have the right to refuse to let anyone search, inspect my property without assuming guilt or "looking guilty". If they choose to file a lawsuit. do so, it is their right.
By asserting my right to refuse search without a court order,does NOT mean i have anything to hide, just asserting my rights. Seeing a crime is not what we are talking here, completely different under the law.
Irregardless of all arguments, SC has no legal standing to demand to inspect, search, anyone's property without court orders. I, on the other hand, have the right to refuse per my civil rights, what is left of them.
I have nothing to hide from SC or anyone else, and i AM a musician and have cds out that have been copied. My feetling is the ill will i would create on my small scale is just not worth it. SC is feeling the results of their gestapo tactics on a much larger scale!
Guilt should not be assumed, let's protect our rights and let the chips fall. As for suits or countersuits, if you are right, you will prevail anyway.
NEVER GIVE UP ONE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, if you do, soon, you'll lose another.
Your stand is exactly the SC stand. Amazing
muzicman144

[Rockrz]

What you are saying is the first way to lose our given rights. I have the right to refuse to let anyone search, inspect my property without assuming guilt or "looking guilty". If they choose to file a lawsuit. do so, it is their right.

The law affords you the right to refuse to show your originals, and the law affords them the right to sue just to be able to look at your collection. They won't issue a search warrant to SC up front since this is a civil enforcement of civil copyright holdings, so SC has no other option but to sue if you decide you have something to hide and refuse to show them your originals.

If someone truely had nothing to hide and were operating legally, then why anyone be scared to show them their originals? Refusing to show originals makes everyone think there's some illegal music in there somewhere

If it were me, I'd show them my originals and save myself the major hassle of being sued. Since I would be operating legally and I wouldn't be trying to hide anything, then I'd be good to go.

Since they have a right to verify you aren't engaging in piracy, they will sue you I guess. Hope you are operating legally, if not you'll get wacked in court.




My feetling is the ill will i would create on my small scale is just not worth it.

I'm betting if your latest CD took off on the charts and your music became worth millions...you'd be doing what SC is doing because you'd want to get your fair share of money your music is earning, right?



Your stand is exactly the SC stand

Actually, it's the copyright laws themselves that are to blame
because SC has the right under law to enforce their copyright.





.

[ddouglass]

Since I am sure neither one of you are lawyers your arguments are purely speculation. I think this has gone on long enough. Unless you have specific information concerning the on-going lawsuits, then please do not post anymore on this.

[Rockrz]

Actually, I have spoken at length with our company attorney concerning this and copyright holders do have the right to sue to enforce their copyright, especially in cases where somebody doesn't want to show they are operating legally.

It's the same with software, because software companies have sued just so they can come look at all of your computers and make sure no illegal copies are in operation.

I didn't say I like what SC is doing, but from what I'm being told by the legal industry is they have the right to enforce thru civil actions.

The attorney also said that anybody that gets sued is free to counter-sue if they feel the tactics are heavy handed and unfair and might have a good case.

[ddouglass]

You are both correct but repeating the same arguments is not necessary.
They can sue but at the same time you can refuse to show without a court order for discovery. It is up to the individual how they handle it. That is not an admission of guilt.
So now can we please curtail this or I will be force to close this thread.

[muzicman144]

Before the computer and karaoke disc, I used a cassette player and later a mini disc player on my one man show. Only the music played and you had to know the words to sing. One line of cassettes was a favorite of mine for the music quality and it was Pocket Songs, ironically produced by Sound Choice. Now I see Pocket Song releases in the karaoke disc format. Can anyone confirm if this is SC attempting to get around the marketing mess they have created with the SC Logo lawsuits by re-opening the Pocket Song line in hopes of avoiding the "boycott" of SC products???
just wondering
muzicman144

[Musicman51]

Before this thread ends up in the dumpster. Let me add just a bit of info to what admin stated:


I don't think so. SC's goal is to get as many suckers to settle out of court by paying them $6500/system, whether they have all the discs or not.

There isn't anything cool about that... if you are in their sights, you are their target.

Don't forget that the $6,500/system is the blue light bargain basement price. AS LONG as you don't fight them in court. The slepps have made it known several times, on several different forums. That if you make waves, the amnesty deal is off the table. Their shyster lawyers then get in the picture. It's then anyplace from $750.00 to $150,000 dollars PER SONG, PER RIG, PLUS PUNITIVE DAMAGES. So if you decide to fight for your rights, like you've been screaming you would. You had better have a leg to stand on. The slepp's attorneys git involved, and they have deep pockets. So if you do decide to fight them, you better have it all together..or you are history. They gotch'a.... Now....what was that you said about how you'd sue sue sue????:w

[ddouglass]

Before the computer and karaoke disc, I used a cassette player and later a mini disc player on my one man show. Only the music played and you had to know the words to sing. One line of cassettes was a favorite of mine for the music quality and it was Pocket Songs, ironically produced by Sound Choice. Now I see Pocket Song releases in the karaoke disc format. Can anyone confirm if this is SC attempting to get around the marketing mess they have created with the SC Logo lawsuits by re-opening the Pocket Song line in hopes of avoiding the "boycott" of SC products???
just wondering
muzicman144
I don't be leive it is. Pocket Songs has been in business since 1985, starting with cassettes. The company is owned by Irv and David Kratka. Company is based in New York.

[Rockrz]

Now....what was that you said about how you'd sue sue sue????:w

Their tactics may not be legal, and the only way to stop them is to counter-sue, which comes down to principles.

Apparently, SC hasn't yet run in to anyone with enough principles to shut down their heavy handed tactics

They will eventually, and they will most likely have to pay a large settlement

[muzicman144]

I don't be leive it is. Pocket Songs has been in business since 1985, starting with cassettes. The company is owned by Irv and David Kratka. Company is based in New York.

I still have a few of the Pocket Song cassette and dug out a couple. You are correct that the company is based in Irvington, NY. Doesn't show any owner info except for MMO Music Group. Didn't mean to start any rumors, but, i guess ones memory fades in time.
muzicman144:

[ddouglass]

Sorry folks, but I am closing this thread because this is getting off topic and out of hand.